Author Topic: Slavic research  (Read 11887 times)

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Úlfr

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #120 on: April 03, 2012, 06:29:05 PM »
8th century slavic helmet (should have horse tail)
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leather lammelar armour
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Slavic Warrior
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Dansk viking

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #121 on: April 03, 2012, 07:50:28 PM »
Ulfr, it would be good if you could specify more than "Slavic Warrior," I see that one is a Rus warrior, actually.

On the Western Slavs (Wends):

I found this book online (I have it, translated to Swedish).

David M. Wilson: The Northern World: The History and Heritage of Northern Europe AD 400-1100, 1980
http://www.rkp-montreal.org/en/02northern.html

About the social structure.
The tribal lord was known as Knez or Knjas and the later word for feudal princes developed from this root. For instance, a Knez, Jacza of Kopenick, as he styles himself on his coins, owned Berlin-Kopenick about 1150. The more important farmers were known as Kmetz or Kmets; smaller, more or less independent farmers were called Smirdz. These are the Smerds or Smurds encountered in medieval manuscripts from the Elbe-Saale region and Mecklenburg. Finally, the slave, villain or serf was known as Cholop (Cholp). These social groups are well known from ecclesiastical chronicles, above all those of Thietmar of Merseburg, Adam of Bremen (both of the eleventh century), Helmold of Bosau and the biographer of St Otto of Bamberg who traveled to the towns at the mouth of the Oder.

I think this "lake-fortress" would make an excellent siege map!
The Lake settlement of Behren-Lubchin, as it may have appeared in the eleventh century. Circular in plan, like Tornow and many other forts, it was given added security by being surrounded by water. Access was only by a long bridge; the building of these bridges, several of which have been excavated, was one of the most remarkable achievements of Slav technology.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 08:09:34 PM by Dansk viking »

Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

STARik

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #122 on: April 03, 2012, 08:05:47 PM »
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I have seen leather lammelars on reenactor's photos too and wanted to suggest it to moe, so I made a reasearch - rus did not have leather lammelars and none were ever found on rus territory.

Úlfr

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2012, 08:14:05 PM »
(click to show/hide)

I have seen leather lammelars on reenactor's photos too and wanted to suggest it to moe, so I made a reasearch - rus did not have leather lammelars and none were ever found on rus territory.

maybe it could be like the ''Gamberson'' and cost a little bit more maybe

Zimke Zlovoljni

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2012, 09:06:41 PM »
Here are few pics, it's not much but may come handy. I took the photographs, rest is from few museum sites, it's mostly buckles, belt decorations, some weapons, (and one picture of avar woman with forcibly deformated head just for fun)... of earliest Serbian finds.
http://www.mediafire.com/?vldirqe4ec55dfl


 Serbs are southern Slavs, maybe it does not fit the region but because of some connections to Wends some pics may be useful.
small info just for orientation:
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small info source:
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EDIT:
About Slavic arms in general (forgive abouth lack of terminology in english, some mistakes in words may occur):

Spears:
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Note the throwing spears in the end that were stuck into the wood with a spike instead of other types that were nailed on the wooden handle.
Spears were most commonly used, sources usually mention that each soldier had two or three spears.

Axes:
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Axes are the most common find of weapons along with spears. There is a difference in axes that were used for war the ones for houshold, pics above are all war axes.
Short axes or one handed axes had handles up to 1m in length and long axes or two handed axes were up to 1.80 m.

Knives:

Slavic knife /nozh(nož) found in Czech republic
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This knives were very similar if not identical to seax. All of them were placed into the handle via spike (trn).

Swords:
Slavic sword by it's characteristics are most simmilar to germanic and "viking" swords with length from 90 to 100cm, their weight were up to 1.5kg, sharpened on both sides.
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Sabres:
There are no archeological evidences that both southern and western Slavs used sabres. Avars on the other hand used sabres:
Avar sabre from Brodski Drenovac, Serbia
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Eastern Slavs like Kievan Rus used sabres in small numbers for cavalry. As of written sources there is a mention of sabre when one rus Kniaz exchanged gifts with Pecheneg Han in 968. AD and got a sabre as a gift.

Sling:
Sling (Praćka) were made of leather or fabric holder with two ropes from 40-50cm to above in length. Rocks of weight from 150 to 200gr were used as a projectile.
Modern reconstructiof of slavic sling (praćka)
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Bows and Arrows:

Bows used were named by material they were made of, so we have:
Wooden Bow
Horn Bow(rarely used) similar to avar bow.
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As for arrows, all types were used and southern Slavs also used poisoned arrows too and flaming arrows for sieges.


Blunt weapons:
Some maces were used as well as farming flails but not in a great extent.

Siege weapons:
Siege weapons were quite developed amongst southern slavs, byzantine sources are wast on this topic and explain them in good details.
So we have;
Ladder (self explanatory)
Turtle (it is device that looked like ram used to protect workers from arrows, workers then, when approached to the gates, with different tools and axes penetrated the doors or walls)
Ram (self explanatory, only detail is that they were moved via animals sometimes)
Siege towers (in a form we know it. On the top floor were archers and slingers, and towers were moved via animals from inside of tower, or via humans.)
Petrobol (Byzantine name for the device that looked like  catapult and was used to throw stones able to destroy a house. It's sizes were different. Byzantines did not used this device.)[/spoiler]


About Slavic protection gear in general
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More on protection gear later, I'm tired...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:06:04 AM by Zimke Zlovoljni »

Dansk viking

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2012, 09:20:46 PM »
But... Serbians Serbs in Vikingr ?  :?


PS. Love your signature, Smiley!  :lol:
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 12:58:07 AM by Dansk viking »

Gesaga him éac wordum, þæt híe sint wilcuman Deniga léodum

Zimke Zlovoljni

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2012, 10:58:02 PM »
Yes, what with them?  Along with other Balkan nations there is no lobby in historical societies to promote Balkan history and importance, but that did not mean their presence, importance and influence was little, quite on contrary.

Edit: Oh forgot to ask, anyone knows who are the last remaining Wend group descendants?

Edit 2: That was sneaky edit Dv   :P
What I want to say is that we can use some southern Slav informations for Wends. After all southern slavs were not in the area which vikingr is aiming, so there is no need for them in Vikingr of course.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:12:19 AM by Zimke Zlovoljni »

Waidulf

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2012, 07:20:40 AM »
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I have seen leather lammelars on reenactor's photos too and wanted to suggest it to moe, so I made a reasearch - rus did not have leather lammelars and none were ever found on rus territory.

You're right Mr.Smilie!

We have NO ARCHAELOGICAL PROOF for lammelar armor made from leather or horn in early middle ages. This is sad - I've made one five years ago for Wolin (for me) but nowadays I sold it again cause it's not historically accurate - you see Reenactors copy mistakes. There are rumors about some Byzantine sources (documents) who speak of lammelars made from leather and hornplates but I can't give any proof.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 09:19:43 AM by Waidulf »

Éadríc

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2012, 12:38:15 PM »
I would like to see a West Slavic faction, but what on earth would we call it? Or rather: what name did the West Slavs have for themselves as a group, if any?

Wends is not an option, for that is a Germanic designation for various West Slavic tribes and groups.

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STARik

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2012, 12:48:15 PM »
If using anything additional and historical for rus then an armor with metal plates on leather/mail base, that was typical rus armor
And narf's OSP has it already
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« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 01:02:52 PM by STARik »

hrotha

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #130 on: April 04, 2012, 12:53:07 PM »
Hmm, Eadric, something akin to "Polabians", maybe? In Old Polabian, of course. Not sure if they ever used that term to refer to themselves, but at least it's Slavic and its meaning is transparent enough that it'd work as a generic term the Wends themselves would understand and not object to ("Elbe dudes").

Éadríc

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #131 on: April 04, 2012, 01:21:46 PM »
Well, for now I was thinking of the vernacular form of Lechites myself. But what that form was...

Dragomir

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #132 on: April 04, 2012, 01:25:43 PM »
Well, for now I was thinking of the vernacular form of Lechites myself. But what that form was...

Lechites (Lechici) is basically the same nation as Polans (Polanie), or Lengyans (Lędzianie), and this nation is nothing more but what formed Poland (ger. - Land of Polans) later.
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Éadríc

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #133 on: April 04, 2012, 01:38:31 PM »
Well, for now I was thinking of the vernacular form of Lechites myself. But what that form was...

Lechites (Lechici) is basically the same nation as Polans (Polanie), or Lengyans (Lędzianie), and this nation is nothing more but what formed Poland (ger. - Land of Polans) later.

Hmm, it was my understanding that initally, around the 9th, 10th, 11th century, the Polans were but one of many Lechitic tribes, and that the Polans eventually became the dominant of the bunch, subsuming most others, so that Polish ended up being practically synonymous with Lechitic.

Hengwulf

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Re: Slavic research
« Reply #134 on: April 04, 2012, 02:27:46 PM »
What about Balts? :roll: