Miliman's military orders

[miliman]

Jousting would be awesome but I think it would be too hard to implement it

1.: Code a tournament where every round has only 2 cobattants
2.: Make a long but narrow map
3.: Make the spawn points have the maximum distance to each other
4.: Create a new troop type, some kind of "tournament fighter", meaning a knight participating with his tournament equipment. (If something like that existed in 1257ad). "Pugnator certationis" or something like that. (Certatio means competition, I hope my Latin skills from 7 years ago didn't fail me on the genitive  ). Equip them with lances and only with lances (and shield, of course). The purpose of this is to prevent situations where the enemy attacks with his sword/mace
5.: Let the fight begin!

As the map is narrow you can't use the usual "circle and stab"-tactic, being forced to either couch the lance yourself or - more risky - try to stab the enemy.

Only disadvantage: in 99% of all cases where the player and a bot attack each other with couched lances of the same length the player will win. I don't know why, but that's how it is.


Edit: I think in a book I read (the one I sent to you, DrTomas) there was mentioned that usually the tournaments took place outside the cities, and sometimes the areas even included some houses of the local villages, so it could be that a poor peasant hat to watch two knights fighting through his kitchen, demolishing the entire interior 

It was some kind of area with "safe zones" for each knight ("lists"), where he could rest or bring his prisoners to get a ransom and so on. Some kind of "battlefield with houses" where several hostile teams fight each other.

Oh! Make the player get ransom for knocking out enemies, especially lords, but on the other hand you would have to pay a ransom for yourself, too. This could be a sum you have to deposit before the tournament starts, kind of a "fee" for participating, and if you win you get it back. Or at least 80-90% of it.

Right on all points but one, only the safe zones weren't called lists, their names varied. The place where jousts took place were called lists. And yes indeed knights were, especially during large tournaments, allowed to take their retinues.

[Joker86]

Right on all points but one, only the safe zones weren't called lists, their names varied. The place where jousts took place were called lists. And yes indeed knights were, especially during large tournaments, allowed to take their retinues.

Then my sources tell different things than yours.

Mine is the Osprey-Book "Knights at Tournament":

[miliman]

I see well only thing I can say against that i that my sources tell me that on 1278 jousting fields were called lists.But maybe they both are called lists in those days.

Do you guys already know how you are going to shape the monestaries. Are you going to build them like semi-fortresses like the military orders had of more like the monestaries of "normal" medieval monk orders?

[kuauik]

I see well only thing I can say against that i that my sources tell me that on 1278 jousting fields were called lists.But maybe they both are called lists in those days.

Do you guys already know how you are going to shape the monestaries. Are you going to build them like semi-fortresses like the military orders had of more like the monestaries of "normal" medieval monk orders?

normal monk buildings

[Cuthalion]

I have to step in for a little more input:

[Templar] Warriors: The order supported two types of warriors the knights that functioned as heavy cavalry (sometimes also as heavy infantry) and serjents(it's a french name) who furfilled all other military roles mainly as light cavalry and infantry. Some regiments also consisted of archers. The order also supported large amounts of mercenaries who sometimes fought wearing their colours and fought in all possible roles from heavy cavalry to archers.

The sergeant brothers had theoretically the equipment (that is, mail shirt without mittens and mail stockings without the foot part) to fight on foot or operate crossbows (which were IIRC found in both the Templar Rule and their inventories). But in pitched battle they were cavalry in the second row along with the Frankish turcopoles who fought with the order. However, the distinction between them and the sergeant brothers remains unclear for now (the rule sometimes mentions turcopoles as if it referred to both). And the sergeant brothers, as you said, were greater in number. A Templar army in 1257AD should have at least twice as much brown/black-wearing sergeant brothers than white knights. There is IMHO no need to provide dismounted brothers as they can be ordered as such manually and already are dismounted in a siege situation.

There is hardly any evidence about how the Templar's military tunic looked like (for instance, the rule says nothing about crosses for knights, but sergeant brothers have them on their chest and back; after 1240 at least the supertunic is attested in a papal letter, which probably means a sleeveless surcoat, with a cross on the chest mentioned as well). I know no source indicating that mercenary troops wore their colours. The turcopoles fought under the Turcoplier's banner, if that is what you meant. Archers and other non-ordained soldiers belonging to the order are AFAIK only attested as garrisons.

Secular knights were able to join the order as a "guest knight", being provided with the clothing of a Templar for one year and one day. Like the other brothers they couldn't leave the order just like that. It might be a Freelancer option to gain experience and renown (or lose it in case of desertion) etc. but no money. If they become a real faction so that it's attractive for players to become grandmaster (if possible without killing the old one personally), players bearing a standard should be accepted as knights, those without as sergeant brothers. On the other hand, those can never be grandmaster anyway.

About their arms and armour the Templar Osprey is quite correct except for the mail shirt mitten issue (on one plate you can see sergeant brothers with attatched mittens, this is contrary to the rule).

[miliman]

Sorry for the long absence.
Any new info needed

[Wormattack]

Do you have any info about the Byzantium empire?

[miliman]

On which subjects?

[Wormattack]

Well I want to know in general what were they doing (by 1257) and anything about architecture, especially about Constantinople defences

[Aurelien]

Order of the Faith and Peace: [No cross found - gay name anyway, but what can you expect from the French?]

What can you expect from the French anyway ?
Oh i don't know, maybe les Chevaliers de l'Ordre du Temple, the Knights Templar ?

Do you understand that such comments can be really insulting ?
I mean shit, i know it's the internet and lots of peoples do French bashing, but really ?
You're not even being original.

I am not the only Frenchie that read threads on these forums, if nobody reply it's because sincerely there's other things to do in life way better than replying to someone like you.

Like eating my baguette with coulommiers (cheese) with a cup of champagne on my balcony that allow me to see the eiffel tower.
I don't know i just couldn't take it anymore.
But hey you know what they say, if someone want to bring you down it means that you're above them.

So keep hating on a people that you never met or really took time to know,
If it makes you happy.


Sorry everybody about that, sorry miliman for spamming your thread.
I apologize.


I wish a good day to you all.

EDIT : Also read this with a French accent.

[Cuthalion]

The more I deal with history the more I feel connected to all the modern national states anyway. About 1300 years ago France and Germany was one country, Poland and Bohemia were partly within so-called German territory (I mean much earlier than in the 19th century or later)... I think people belong together anyway. Or maybe it's just that I've grown up in a globalized world with internet which allows me to communicate with all these people. For instance, I see it as a downside that I never learnt French (although I can understand a bit thanks to Latin)...and still, when working with the original Templar Rule, I read it and don't think it's...well...something overly distant or strange.

But back to topic, does really no one pay attention to my carefully-researched information in post #64?  Do you know that there is no reliable proof that the knights wore crosses on their white tunic (the one worn in battle I mean, is there a more precise word in English?) before 1240? I mentioned it earlier, but I'm currently involved in a discussion in a German Templar renactment board and the matter is really interesting....but demanding as well.

[Joker86]

Order of the Faith and Peace: [No cross found - gay name anyway, but what can you expect from the French?]

What can you expect from the French anyway ?
Oh i don't know, maybe les Chevaliers de l'Ordre du Temple, the Knights Templar ?

Do you understand that such comments can be really insulting ?
I mean shit, i know it's the internet and lots of peoples do French bashing, but really ?
You're not even being original.

I am not the only Frenchie that read threads on these forums, if nobody reply it's because sincerely there's other things to do in life way better than replying to someone like you.

Like eating my baguette with coulommiers (cheese) with a cup of champagne on my balcony that allow me to see the eiffel tower.
I don't know i just couldn't take it anymore.
But hey you know what they say, if someone want to bring you down it means that you're above them.

So keep hating on a people that you never met or really took time to know,
If it makes you happy.


Sorry everybody about that, sorry miliman for spamming your thread.
I apologize.


I wish a good day to you all.

EDIT : Also read this with a French accent.

Oh come on.

I am German. And like you, I always make jokes about me being German. Especially on the internet, where I know that many people will take my jokes seriously. You French like frog legs and horse salami, and the world hates you for this, but you know what? In Stalingrad I ate horse, too, and it tastes definitely better than those guys from the 16th tank division. They had such a strange aftertaste of motor oil. Disgusting.

I just think that ethnical jokes are some of the best jokes at all. I also make jokes about Spaghetti eating, small, criminal Italians with big dicks, about alcoholic Russians and many others. I am also half Yugoslavian. I know how to perform ethnical cleansings, it's in my blood.

[Aurelien]

Order of the Faith and Peace: [No cross found - gay name anyway, but what can you expect from the French?]

What can you expect from the French anyway ?
Oh i don't know, maybe les Chevaliers de l'Ordre du Temple, the Knights Templar ?

Do you understand that such comments can be really insulting ?
I mean shit, i know it's the internet and lots of peoples do French bashing, but really ?
You're not even being original.

I am not the only Frenchie that read threads on these forums, if nobody reply it's because sincerely there's other things to do in life way better than replying to someone like you.

Like eating my baguette with coulommiers (cheese) with a cup of champagne on my balcony that allow me to see the eiffel tower.
I don't know i just couldn't take it anymore.
But hey you know what they say, if someone want to bring you down it means that you're above them.

So keep hating on a people that you never met or really took time to know,
If it makes you happy.


Sorry everybody about that, sorry miliman for spamming your thread.
I apologize.


I wish a good day to you all.

EDIT : Also read this with a French accent.

Oh come on.

I am German. And like you, I always make jokes about me being German. Especially on the internet, where I know that many people will take my jokes seriously. You French like frog legs and horse salami, and the world hates you for this, but you know what? In Stalingrad I ate horse, too, and it tastes definitely better than those guys from the 16th tank division. They had such a strange aftertaste of motor oil. Disgusting.

I just think that ethnical jokes are some of the best jokes at all. I also make jokes about Spaghetti eating, small, criminal Italians with big dicks, about alcoholic Russians and many others. I am also half Yugoslavian. I know how to perform ethnical cleansings, it's in my blood.

Ok then sausage-eating companion. 

And i agree with you Cuthalion, i feel the same.
An European superstate with Latin for official language would and could be nice.

BUT anyway back on topic,

Do you know that there is no reliable proof that the knights wore crosses on their white tunic (the one worn in battle I mean, is there a more precise word in English?) before 1240? I mentioned it earlier, but I'm currently involved in a discussion in a German Templar renactment board and the matter is really interesting....but demanding as well.

Yep it's because the templars have been allowed to wear the red cross on their left shoulder near the heart only in 1147 by the pope Eugene III.

But writings and the papal bulle named Omne datum optimum talked about it already in 1139.

It's only under the leadership of Robert de Craon, second grandmaster of the order, that the red cross inspired by the order of the holy sepulcher emblem becomes the official Templar emblem.

But still they wasn't all wearing it.


Source : the french article of wikipedia about the Knights Templar : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordre_du_Temple

And a french foundation site, regrouping lots of data about the templars : http://www.templiers.net/symbolique/index.php?page=les-croix-templieres

http://www.templiers.net/symbolique/index.php?page=capes-et-manteaux

[mitaka]

Order of the Faith and Peace: [No cross found - gay name anyway, but what can you expect from the French?]

What can you expect from the French anyway ?
Oh i don't know, maybe les Chevaliers de l'Ordre du Temple, the Knights Templar ?

Do you understand that such comments can be really insulting ?
I mean shit, i know it's the internet and lots of peoples do French bashing, but really ?
You're not even being original.

I am not the only Frenchie that read threads on these forums, if nobody reply it's because sincerely there's other things to do in life way better than replying to someone like you.

Like eating my baguette with coulommiers (cheese) with a cup of champagne on my balcony that allow me to see the eiffel tower.
I don't know i just couldn't take it anymore.
But hey you know what they say, if someone want to bring you down it means that you're above them.

So keep hating on a people that you never met or really took time to know,
If it makes you happy.


Sorry everybody about that, sorry miliman for spamming your thread.
I apologize.


I wish a good day to you all.

EDIT : Also read this with a French accent.

Oh come on.

I am German. And like you, I always make jokes about me being German. Especially on the internet, where I know that many people will take my jokes seriously. You French like frog legs and horse salami, and the world hates you for this, but you know what? In Stalingrad I ate horse, too, and it tastes definitely better than those guys from the 16th tank division. They had such a strange aftertaste of motor oil. Disgusting.

I just think that ethnical jokes are some of the best jokes at all. I also make jokes about Spaghetti eating, small, criminal Italians with big dicks, about alcoholic Russians and many others. I am also half Yugoslavian. I know how to perform ethnical cleansings, it's in my blood.

Hmmm you are dark balkan person just like us 

[H. Rearden]

I am German. And like you, I always make jokes about me being German. Especially on the internet, where I know that many people will take my jokes seriously. You French like frog legs and horse salami, and the world hates you for this, but you know what? In Stalingrad I ate horse, too, and it tastes definitely better than those guys from the 16th tank division. They had such a strange aftertaste of motor oil. Disgusting.

I just think that ethnical jokes are some of the best jokes at all. I also make jokes about Spaghetti eating, small, criminal Italians with big dicks, about alcoholic Russians and many others. I am also half Yugoslavian. I know how to perform ethnical cleansings, it's in my blood.

From an igloo-dwelling, canoe paddling lumberjack who speaks passable francais:

If you were Austrian, even 1/4 Austrian... on top of all that other mixed hatre... er... heritage... I'd be truly concerned.