Is Mythology the turth disguised as a Tale? or a Tale to disguise a Turth?

[Bromden]

Bromden: What genes are you talking about? There is no "Turk gene". It's something to determine which people lived where. It's got nothing to do with being Turk or not. Genes don't determine whether that person was a Turk or not. It just determines when people from xxx lived in yyy.  For example we know that Huns lived in Europe even before BC 2000 by knowing about genes.

You know, genetics. DNS. The tiny stuff in your cells you got from your parents.

If the ancient Turks cannot be defined by their genetics, then by what? Was being proto-Turk an idea? A religion? An allience of tribes? What if *gah* that Turkic apparition was only the part of the Great Pan-Hunnic Empire^tm?

[ancalimon]

Bromden: What genes are you talking about? There is no "Turk gene". It's something to determine which people lived where. It's got nothing to do with being Turk or not. Genes don't determine whether that person was a Turk or not. It just determines when people from xxx lived in yyy.  For example we know that Huns lived in Europe even before BC 2000 by knowing about genes.

You know, genetics. DNS. The tiny stuff in your cells you got from your parents.

If the ancient Turks cannot be defined by their genetics, then by what? Was being proto-Turk an idea? A religion? An allience of tribes? What if *gah* that Turkic apparition was only the part of the Great Pan-Hunnic Empire^tm?

It's defined by way of life.  in the summer "Yaylak (nomadic, comfortable, free)". In the winter "Kışlak (living in cities or castles)".  Style of art. Religious symbols. Kurgans~horses. Diet. Toponymy~the way they named cities,rivers, etc. Language. Writing. Titles. Meaning of colors. Political structure. The way they got divided. The status of women in society ...  Most important of all, the unexplainable eccentric oddities in a society of status-quo & unexplainable cultural-architectural-... connections.

We detect the odd Turk in a society that changed the way of life this way.

[Bromden]

So it's a culture then. That means by culture I am more Roman than Turk. And we know Romans ain't Turks. They wore no pants.

[Ule]

culture defindes turkishness..

therefore no one but turkey is a turk? i know for 1 thing by culture im nought but an englishman..

you dear sir have just nulified your entire arguement with that statement. no is turkic unless he lives a turkic way of live, there for only turkics are turks?

[ancalimon]

culture defindes turkishness..

therefore no one but turkey is a turk? i know for 1 thing by culture im nought but an englishman..

you dear sir have just nulified your entire arguement with that statement. no is turkic unless he lives a turkic way of live, there for only turkics are turks?

If we talk about today, None of the people on Earth are Turks at all.

[Si-A-erra.]

We detect the odd Turk in a society that changed the way of life this way.

I detect an odd Turk 

And also if no people on earth are turks why do people call themselves turks?

[ancalimon]

We detect the odd Turk in a society that changed the way of life this way.

I detect an odd Turk 

And also if no people on earth are turks why do people call themselves turks?

Because someone wanted them to call themselves as a Turk. It had been always like that. Someone extraordinary comes and changes the way of life. Gives them writing, alphabet, new way of life... Some societies called them "Gods" for some weird reason. Some called them "dragons and law makers" some called them "leaders", some "shamans", "khans".

[Kormin]

culture defindes turkishness..

therefore no one but turkey is a turk? i know for 1 thing by culture im nought but an englishman..

you dear sir have just nulified your entire arguement with that statement. no is turkic unless he lives a turkic way of live, there for only turkics are turks?

If we talk about today, None of the people on Earth are Turks at all.

if we are talking Culture the only turks were the original tribes, as soon as their culture changed, say by marrying into the Varangians, they would become Russians because of the NEW culture they create, and with that the Turks loose all claim to Russia and Russian history.

the same goes for language, if it changes in any form its no longer Turkic because it is no longer part of that culture.

Hell, I can go far enough to say that your Turks never existed. Simply by looking at how far apart the various "turkic" tribes were to far flung to have enough in common with each other to be considered a single culture.



I'm sorry ancalimon, usually I try to engage you in a discussion using historical documents and sources. but this latest idea of yours, as Ule puts it:
 

you dear sir have just nulified your entire arguement with that statement.

for any of your previous claims and ideas to be even vaguely logical and possible, even so people can debate it, there needs to be genetics. Culture is not enough to identify a group of people as a "Turk" in the past or present.

[ancalimon]

Well genetically a Turk from Kazakhstan is considered the ancestor of all living humans.  (even though it doesn't mean anything for me. All I'm after is the catalyst of the common culture)

http://digital.films.com/play/SX29S4#

see 74:00...

(the man at 3:10 is the person who said that Indo-European languages theory is bogus and it is built upon false foundations and must be left to die)

[Merlkir]

-_-  TV programmes again. Oh yes, I'll trust their "surprising revelation about the origin of man" completely.

[MadVader]

Well genetically a Turk from Kazakhstan is considered the ancestor of all living humans.

Because all other countries are run by little girls? High five!

[Skot the Sanguine]

Well genetically a Turk from Kazakhstan is considered the ancestor of all living humans.  (even though it doesn't mean anything for me. All I'm after is the catalyst of the common culture)

[Kormin]

-_-  TV programmes again. Oh yes, I'll trust their "surprising revelation about the origin of man" completely.

it would be nice if you gave more then a criticism of his source You're clever Merlkir and you know what your talking about, unlike me, actually put something on the table to counter his point or wait until someone, probably me, gets out of school and has the time to watch video.

Same goes to you MadVader, I know this thread is easy to troll (ive done it a few times) but its also a exercise in research, logic, and understanding.

Yes ancalimon has ridicules posts that are laughable to history buffs, but I'm learning things here. maybe you will too.
Examples: Who first settled Moscow, I now know. Roman mining techniques, I never considered that they could get ore from in the water table. I didn't even think that pants could have come from the 'barbaric' celts, and now i know the romans adopted 2 different styles from them.

if your going to criticize his sources, do it right, tell him why PBS isn't a good one. if your going to troll, point out holes in his logic.

I view everything ancalimon posts as being crazy and nationalistic, but that doesn't mean I can't learn from researching his theories. He might even stumble across a gem of knowledge that's been over looked, misinterpret it to favor the Turks i suspect, but you will never know simply because you were busy trolling the post.

EDIT: and now I shall be ridiculed for defending ancalimon, and admitting that i had now idea about celts and pants.

[Merlkir]

This kind of documentaries is based on two things:

1) saying stuff like "rewriting history" and "groundbreaking revelations". While it's most often poorly described and explained mainstream science.
2) having a handsome host who travels all around the world so you get exotic images.

I really don't remember if that quote, which Ancalimon loves with a great boner, was pulled out of context, if it's a mistranslation, or if it's genuine.
But watching the documentary, I haven't seen anything that would suggest to me that genetics research somehow disproves or breaks the (linguistic!) Indo-European theory.
Nor does it show that Turkturkturkturkturkturkturk...etc.

What exactly am I debunking here? Ancalimon keeps pulling the same bunch of quotes and articles out of his ass repeatedly, whether we debunk them in detail or not.

[Kormin]

Because I've found him willing to concede a point if someone takes the time to have a semi intelligent talk with him
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,166900.45.html

and that i've noticed he returns with a fury to match the number of trolls that post