Nerf Full AGI builds by changing Character Progression

[Roben_DuMarsch]

I start with an assumption that you can agree or disagree with:
The mod is relatively balanced, with the exception of melee encounters. In Melee, builds with higher agility have an extreme advantage over those with lower agility, both because of the speed of character movement and the relative speed of swings.

Why I think this is a problem:
Warband was balanced delicately around the concept that after parrying an opponents swing, one can retaliate with a counter swing before the opponent could spam a second strike (assuming you, the player, were quick enough.)
If your opponent has much higher agility, they can ALWAYS swing again before you can, removing any ability to counter your opponents melee strikes with a strike of your own.

What I think the solution is:
Currently the leveling system is modeled after cRPG, with 1 attribute point and 2 skill points per level, with 2 skill points being the equivalent of 1 attribute point and vice versa.

We need to leave that system behind for the sake of:
a) Balance
b) Realism
c) Fun

I propose characters start with 9/9 and 3 skill points.
They get a new attribute point every 3 levels, a skill point every level, and 6 skill points = 1 attribute point.


Why I think this will fix the problem:
This will reduce the min/maxing potential, and total agility cap.
This will make it so that the total agility one may have with a level 30 character is 21... but for a decently balanced character, 18 will be the cap (twice the agility of a level 1.)

By reducing the total variation in agility between players, the disparity between melee swing speed will allow for better melee counterplay.

Additionally, unrealistic and unbalanced elements of gameplay will be removed:
We will see less people outrunning horses with 190 reach polearms that swing twice as quickly as a dagger in a normal persons hands.

 

[Matim]

More born in crpg "balancers" please. Make this mod another simulator of ramboing and 1vs1s (It made me laugh so hard when I saw how hard did you try to make your post look professional, in the same time used example that support character is weaker than solo one in 1vs1 fight. And of course an idea of teamwork, such as formation of pikes, which beats every infantry, hasn't even crossed your mind).

 

[Roben_DuMarsch]

More born in crpg "balancers" please. Make this mod another simulator of ramboing and 1vs1s (It made me laugh so hard when I saw how hard did you try to make your post look professional, in the same time used example that support character is weaker than solo one in 1vs1 fight. And of course an idea of teamwork, such as formation of pikes, which beats every infantry, hasn't even crossed your mind).

Your argument:
These builds are not broken because they are focused on infantry fights, are built around solo play, and can be countered by heavy teamwork oriented formations.

My response:
A 24+ agility build wielding a polearm is not precluded from participating in the heavy teamwork formations you mentioned. More importantly, they are a hard counter to teamwork, and "promote" solo play.

Key Point: The current system promotes ramboing more than a system with lower agility cap would. Why? Because you can move quicker, kill people quicker, and are SLOWING YOURSELF DOWN if you stay with your team while running a high agility build.

Further: High agility builds can simply sprint around infantry formations and flank attack ranged/support fortifications better than cavalry can.
They are smaller targets, with less difficulty traversing terrain, that can do more damage, more quickly, and can fight multiple opponents in melee with relative impunity.

Note: With a high agility build, you can more easily 1v3+ in melee, as your footspeed is quicker allowing you maneuver around them better, reducing your opponents ability to utilize a formation based numbers advantage against you... and with quick swings in long range melee weapons (like PIKES) you can attack your opponents quicker than they can attack you in return, even if you successfully parry/counter attack.

TL;DR:
Resort less to personal attacks and straw man arguments, you missed the point or were inaccurate with your statement.

 

[Zango]

I suggest we just limit certain aspects of Agi builds that people abuse rather than nerf all agi builds.

1. Cap the sprint speed to a MUCH smaller speed. I forgot that part in the history books in which a force of naked men with pikes ran down and killed a regiment of cavalry men.

2. Cap the swing speed on certain heavier weapons to a slower speed. I must've missed that class in which we were told how naked men with pikes can swing their huge ass pole faster than a dagger.

There. Naked men can't sanic across the map and start chopping through people like a cheated single-player character, and other Agi builds (archer) don't get punished for naked sanic men.

 

[Roben_DuMarsch]

I suggest we just limit certain aspects of Agi builds that people abuse rather than nerf all agi builds.

1. Cap the sprint speed to a MUCH smaller speed. I forgot that part in the history books in which a force of naked men with pikes ran down and killed a regiment of cavalry men.

2. Cap the swing speed on certain heavier weapons to a slower speed. I must've missed that class in which we were told how naked men with pikes can swing their huge ass pole faster than a dagger.

There. Naked men can't sanic across the map and start chopping through people like a cheated single-player character, and other Agi builds (archer) don't get punished for naked sanic men.

If you break down our changes, yours represents an agility NERF.
Mine represents a rebalance of how "extreme" builds can get.

I wouldn't mind what you are suggesting, as its an alternate path to largely the same end.
However, I am almost certain that its impossible to do what you suggest, as things like agility and its interaction with swing speeds is hard coded into Warband.

 

[Marko͘]

Today a 30 AGI person with a polearm sallied out the castle and obliterated the entire attacking team because no one could swing back.

 

[Heskeytime]

Today a 30 AGI person with a polearm sallied out the castle and obliterated the entire attacking team because no one could swing back.

Pierce damage makes it OP, otherwise agility isnt so bad.

 

[Roben_DuMarsch]

Today a 30 AGI person with a polearm sallied out the castle and obliterated the entire attacking team because no one could swing back.

Pierce damage makes it OP, otherwise agility isnt so bad.

The issue with AGI builds is not just how quickly they kill multiple people.
Its the method by which they do it:
One in which they swing so quickly there can be no counterplay.
While moving so quickly they can't be flanked.