Clans vanishing after I destroyed the Southern Empire? (1.2 Beta)

[Shifty_Spaghetti]

I am playing as a vassal of the Northern Empire about 905 days in, and a couple of in game and real days ago I participated in the destruction of Rhagea's faction and her army of simps. I was under the impression from a couple of google searches that the clans would roam around and eventually just join other factions, but that wasn't the case in my game. After maybe 5 days of the SE being gone I get a notification that every clan belonging to them was destroyed, with every lord being considered "lost".

Is this supposed to happen? If not is there something I can do to stop this?

Some additional info is that all the clans became grey independent factions and all declared war on the NE separately immediately after we destroyed the SE, and when I went to make peace with them they were all demanding 130k each to make peace. I feel like this is just an oversight as its kinda crazy that they expect money from us after we just kicked their ass.

If this is just a dead end game mechanic that has yet to have some resolution implemented might I recommend that the clans just join other nations, with Empire clans having preference to joining a different empire? As well as allowing the player to try and convince them to join their faction with maybe the normal barriers to entry being a lot lower since they're realmless.

 

[Emperor1997]

I am playing as a vassal of the Northern Empire about 905 days in, and a couple of in game and real days ago I participated in the destruction of Rhagea's faction and her army of simps. I was under the impression from a couple of google searches that the clans would roam around and eventually just join other factions, but that wasn't the case in my game. After maybe 5 days of the SE being gone I get a notification that every clan belonging to them was destroyed, with every lord being considered "lost".

Is this supposed to happen? If not is there something I can do to stop this?

Some additional info is that all the clans became grey independent factions and all declared war on the NE separately immediately after we destroyed the SE, and when I went to make peace with them they were all demanding 130k each to make peace. I feel like this is just an oversight as its kinda crazy that they expect money from us after we just kicked their ass.

If this is just a dead end game mechanic that has yet to have some resolution implemented might I recommend that the clans just join other nations, with Empire clans having preference to joining a different empire? As well as allowing the player to try and convince them to join their faction with maybe the normal barriers to entry being a lot lower since they're realmless.

I would rather prefer, they create a new Kingdom over joining an existing one, after some Time of course, there should be a delay for creating a new Kingdom after the old, was destroyed.

 

[archaicwarrior]

Some people complained that it was difficult to destroy a faction if there were only a few fast, small armies zooming around. True. Now we have the opposite problem, Factions self destruct when they get to a certain size.. "This faction will self destruct in T - 10 .. 9.. 8 ..WAIT! mother, I want to recruit their lords to me! .. 5 .. 4 .. B*(t)ch!! .."

I'm sure there is a happy compromise somewhere in the middle ?

 

[Shifty_Spaghetti]

Some people complained that it was difficult to destroy a faction if there were only a few fast, small armies zooming around. True. Now we have the opposite problem, Factions self destruct when they get to a certain size.. "This faction will self destruct in T - 10 .. 9.. 8 ..WAIT! mother, I want to recruit their lords to me! .. 5 .. 4 .. B*(t)ch!! .."

I'm sure there is a happy compromise somewhere in the middle ?

The way things worked in warband made perfect sense, They all just siphon off to other kingdoms over time. With like 1 or 2 lords leaving Calradia altogether. I don't remember if you could recruit them yourself or not but they didn't all just leave en masse. I think this is just an oversight but I'm hoping I can do something about it to stop it.

 

[archaicwarrior]

The way things worked in warband made perfect sense, They all just siphon off to other kingdoms over time. With like 1 or 2 lords leaving Calradia altogether. I don't remember if you could recruit them yourself or not but they didn't all just leave en masse. I think this is just an oversight but I'm hoping I can do something about it to stop it.

You can always put it down as a "bug" and let the devs re-examine this situation.

 

[Bluko88]

I am playing as a vassal of the Northern Empire about 905 days in, and a couple of in game and real days ago I participated in the destruction of Rhagea's faction and her army of simps. I was under the impression from a couple of google searches that the clans would roam around and eventually just join other factions, but that wasn't the case in my game. After maybe 5 days of the SE being gone I get a notification that every clan belonging to them was destroyed, with every lord being considered "lost".

Is this supposed to happen? If not is there something I can do to stop this?

Some additional info is that all the clans became grey independent factions and all declared war on the NE separately immediately after we destroyed the SE, and when I went to make peace with them they were all demanding 130k each to make peace. I feel like this is just an oversight as its kinda crazy that they expect money from us after we just kicked their ass.

If this is just a dead end game mechanic that has yet to have some resolution implemented might I recommend that the clans just join other nations, with Empire clans having preference to joining a different empire? As well as allowing the player to try and convince them to join their faction with maybe the normal barriers to entry being a lot lower since they're realmless.

Yeah it's a bit annoying when you destroy a Kingdom all the Clans are at war with you, but I suppose it makes some sense.

I thought Kingdoms were supposed to be able rise again... but given that they just end up as marauders forever afterward I suppose this is somewhat better. Honestly I feel like if the DIPLOMACY system was overhauled to something comprehensible/usable by players this could be avoided. IMO Kindgom destruction should really only happen when all Clans are gone and the leading Clan has no more members. Should not be this hard... no one's asking to make say Trade Agreements - just War, Peace, Non-Agression Pacts, Tribute, and Alliances.

I feel like executions are kind of under-utilized in-game. As is you either never execute any one ever, or you just go on full psychopath playthrough and murder every single noble since all your relations will tank. There needs to be a happy middle ground where you can perform some executions against your enemies, but at the same time if you start to go the Vlad Impaler route there should be consequences for that too. Which is why the A.I. should use executions themselves! Like if you or a Clan member get captured by someone who is at -100 Relationship with you... there should be a real good chance that results in an execution of said prisoner. (Maybe limit executions to only be possible by Clan Leaders)


Really when you destroy a Kingdom you should either being trying to recruit surviving Clans or kill them off since they are effectively rebels. It doesn't make sense that surviving Clans just yeet out of existence after a few days.

In my 1.2 playthrough when the Southern Empire lost its last fief, pretty sure all the Clans self-destructed (maybe they couldn't live without Rhaghea, IDK). Which seems odd since you'd think NE and WE would want to absorb some of them into their ranks.

Now when I personally destroyed Sturgia; 2 Clans did join other Kingdoms (Khuzait and Aserai) before the rest disappeared. So it does happen. But of course I literally went to talk to one Clan Leader (who I had close to like +100 Relationship) couldn't even ask him to join me! So I wasted a bunch of money to make peace with said Clan, couldn't recruit them, and they effectively join a rival Kingdom to boot! Seems really asinine that if you want to flip Clans you effectively have to do it when they are still officially part of a Kingdom...


And you know what I don't get? I thought for the longest time TW didn't really allow executions because they couldn't account for potential NPC losses through executions. But obiviously if dozens of NPCs can just delete themselves when their Kingdom is gone, I fail to see why executions can't be implemented for use by the A.I.

 

[Firestar_9]

Yeah it's a bit annoying when you destroy a Kingdom all the Clans are at war with you, but I suppose it makes some sense.

I thought Kingdoms were supposed to be able rise again... but given that they just end up as marauders forever afterward I suppose this is somewhat better. Honestly I feel like if the DIPLOMACY system was overhauled to something comprehensible/usable by players this could be avoided. IMO Kindgom destruction should really only happen when all Clans are gone and the leading Clan has no more members. Should not be this hard... no one's asking to make say Trade Agreements - just War, Peace, Non-Agression Pacts, Tribute, and Alliances.

I feel like executions are kind of under-utilized in-game. As is you either never execute any one ever, or you just go on full psychopath playthrough and murder every single noble since all your relations will tank. There needs to be a happy middle ground where you can perform some executions against your enemies, but at the same time if you start to go the Vlad Impaler route there should be consequences for that too. Which is why the A.I. should use executions themselves! Like if you or a Clan member get captured by someone who is at -100 Relationship with you... there should be a real good chance that results in an execution of said prisoner. (Maybe limit executions to only be possible by Clan Leaders)


Really when you destroy a Kingdom you should either being trying to recruit surviving Clans or kill them off since they are effectively rebels. It doesn't make sense that surviving Clans just yeet out of existence after a few days.

In my 1.2 playthrough when the Southern Empire lost its last fief, pretty sure all the Clans self-destructed (maybe they couldn't live without Rhaghea, IDK). Which seems odd since you'd think NE and WE would want to absorb some of them into their ranks.

Now when I personally destroyed Sturgia; 2 Clans did join other Kingdoms (Khuzait and Aserai) before the rest disappeared. So it does happen. But of course I literally went to talk to one Clan Leader (who I had close to like +100 Relationship) couldn't even ask him to join me! So I wasted a bunch of money to make peace with said Clan, couldn't recruit them, and they effectively join a rival Kingdom to boot! Seems really asinine that if you want to flip Clans you effectively have to do it when they are still officially part of a Kingdom...


And you know what I don't get? I thought for the longest time TW didn't really allow executions because they couldn't account for potential NPC losses through executions. But obiviously if dozens of NPCs can just delete themselves when their Kingdom is gone, I fail to see why executions can't be implemented for use by the A.I.

The executions make no sense what so ever, I captured this guy who was litteraly a rebel and brigand, so i assume that was a pretty justifiable person to execute as would anyone else. But no, everyone gets pissed off if you kill a bandit rebel, including, sorry, especially the people in the kingdom the bandit rebel is banditing and rebeling in. Like, What?

Or how we just took the last hold from the Britannnians, they have no land what so ever and yet are still alive and well just marching around in their old homeland causing issues for any small bands passing through.

 

[Lokey7800]

I think they said in the update that clans would just disappear if they remained fief less for sometime but I feel they could have just did what you guys have already said and make executions more acceptable. I shouldn't lose and honorable trait for murdering a damn traitor to my realm especially if he left the kingdom after I bought his ass back in for previously leaving. Once I saw that update was in affect I immediately went to the southern empire with their one fief in Tyal surrounded by Khuzaits on all sides and gave their current leader (Rhageas old husband) over a million denars. By the time I declared my kingdom one of the Aserai lords was bought over to the SE and since he was the only lord in their faction with fiefs (and im assuming they paid him most of what I gave them) he automatically became the first Aserian to rule an imperial faction. That put the strongholds of the SE smack dab in the middle of Aserian territory which was already slightly diminished due to war with the Khuzaits advancing. Not only has this halted the Khuzait Hordes but they SE has bounced back and started retaking imperial towns and castles from both the Khuzaits and the WE. Can I claim credit for this...maybe who knows but normally the SE is the first to lose everything to the Aserians(because I normally ally myself with them) right behind the battanians and end up just scurrying around. I honestly don't mind the battanians disappearing because they are the most aggravating and since My character is of their culture they will live on through me and the companion lords I have raised for I have many daughters.

 

[Hero07911010]

A possible solution would be to increase their chance of joining other kingdoms instead of being 'lost'. If that kingdom is at the point of just dying off, then adding a bonus the their decision to join other kingdoms, potentially ignoring their relation with the new kingdom, maybe they would pay to join another kingdom. There are a few ways to handle this. In the decision logic, check to see if the clans are in that position to possibly 'leave' the game and add a bonus to the join decision. It doesn't have to be the player that scoops them up, other kingdoms could use them. Although, I wouldn't be opposed to improved odds of them joining my kingdom if asked.

 

[Shifty_Spaghetti]

A possible solution would be to increase their chance of joining other kingdoms instead of being 'lost'. If that kingdom is at the point of just dying off, then adding a bonus the their decision to join other kingdoms, potentially ignoring their relation with the new kingdom, maybe they would pay to join another kingdom. There are a few ways to handle this. In the decision logic, check to see if the clans are in that position to possibly 'leave' the game and add a bonus to the join decision. It doesn't have to be the player that scoops them up, other kingdoms could use them. Although, I wouldn't be opposed to improved odds of them joining my kingdom if asked.

I agree with this, I also think they shouldn't be able to break out of jail after their kingdom is destroyed. That way you can round them up and talk to them. I was thinking about executing Rhagea but she escaped and then her clan vanished. I didn't even get all the pomp and circumstance of executing a pretender.

 

[Firestar_9]

I agree with this, I also think they shouldn't be able to break out of jail after their kingdom is destroyed. That way you can round them up and talk to them. I was thinking about executing Rhagea but she escaped and then her clan vanished. I didn't even get all the pomp and circumstance of executing a pretender.

I think they should also go join Rebel groups which give you a free option for executions to those who join the rebels giving themselves a chance to pop out again if not dealt with timely.

 

[Lokey7800]

I agree with this, I also think they shouldn't be able to break out of jail after their kingdom is destroyed. That way you can round them up and talk to them. I was thinking about executing Rhagea but she escaped and then her clan vanished. I didn't even get all the pomp and circumstance of executing a pretender.

I think they should implement the aspect of prisoners asking to see you to negotiate terms of a "favorable" peace or even have messengers sent from their faction especially if you have the ruler locked away with most if not all the clan heads especially if they are weakened and at war with other factions. I understand having the king alone without council(clan members) captured might not be enough since when we go against the council as rulers it lowers relations with your nobles (but it should be an option to persuade him to make the choice without them if your charm is high enough and/or you have a decent relationship with the factions ruler) but if I have 7 out of 8-9 clan heads plus the ruler it should be an option. The dialogue where they say they cant "negotiate terms of peace without the council" becomes annoying when half the council is in the same dungeon chamber.



I'm at the point where I have enough influence to constantly outvote my council whenever they want wage war unnecessarily and pay off whatever ridiculous price the AI proposes for peace since its trying to keep me in a state of constant warfare. All I wanted was to eke out a new kingdom and let it stabilize over a few generations. Yes I understand no current nations would want to allow that to happen so I do understand extended periods of war. Apparently it does become like a war of succession depending on which culture you choose for your kingdom so taking down the original culture is understandable but that should be the primary faction that wants you taken out or makes irrational decisions when they begin to lose to you not all 7 factions. Since the territories I have claimed border 4 kingdoms it is understandable that they would declare war on me including the faction I left but its ridiculous to how the Khuzaits, or SE on the far end of the map continuously declare war on me when its too out of the way for them to even make the march to my nearest castle. Thats literally just them wasting resources especially when they are waging border wars with other nations and deal with constant rebellions.


The fact that my only options are to outvote my council to not pay tribute and to continue a war that we have yet to suffer from and does not benefit us to engage in or pay 34,000 someodd denars is crazy. 4 times they have declared war and 4 times I have not once seen a khuzait army dart my lands while continuously outvoting my council to not pay for peace. I even watched the process of them assembling an army near Lycaron to siege Garantor castle on the far side of the map and only making it half way till another faction declared war on them causing the AI to turn around and double back. I left the Aserai, fought them once, and they have been paying me consistently for 10 years. The nation I "betrayed" has left me alone while paying tribute yet in that time span the khuzaits have declared war 4 times! Make it make sense!

 

[Retrobarbaari]

I thought Kingdoms were supposed to be able rise again... but given that they just end up as marauders forever afterward I suppose this is somewhat better.

Yeah what a pain those fiefless kingdom lords declaring war to all factions and just raiding villages! And just get free new troops if you try to beat them militarily... so it can't be done. The very reason I installed KingdomDestruction (version: v1.0.0) mod. If they disappear is an easy solution and definitely better than for ever village raiding. Or make them mercenary factions. Anything is better than village raiding swarms in for ever wars.

IMO Kindgom destruction should really only happen when all Clans are gone and the leading Clan has no more members.

How would that happen? My limited experience was that they don't want to leave their liege no matter if they lose all the wars and have no fiefs left. I didn't bother long time trying to recruit other lords: had no time to run after them. Instead I just recruited common people (mod) and gave them fiefs. Much easier.

I'm in favor of kingdoms dissolving (also) when they are for a certain time without any fiefs.

There needs to be a happy middle ground where you can perform some executions against your enemies, but at the same time if you start to go the Vlad Impaler route there should be consequences for that too.

Thumb up. Agreed.

A possible solution would be to increase their chance of joining other kingdoms instead of being 'lost'. If that kingdom is at the point of just dying off, then adding a bonus the their decision to join other kingdoms, potentially ignoring their relation with the new kingdom...

Yeah they should be happy if some other faction recruited them! Finally a living!

Former kingdom leaders maybe more likely to just disappear (become hermits or end their life) than become recruited. The thing called pride, you know.

Also maybe, just a random lord of the dead kingdom decides he should be a new king. Or she a new queen.