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"accustomed to certain movements" ... that they will have to use on some level in a real fight or else the practice is pointless and would have never been developed at all. The perceived skill of the people in the video is utterly irrelevant and I didn't even look at their faces. Of course they're having fun, it's their hobby and completely unnecessary in 2015.

Something similar can be said for fencing. The techniques they use don't exist in a fencing vacuum. Existing (real) fencing techniques just become more prevalent in the sport because of restrictions placed upon them by the ruleset.

In the video you showed me, each time one fighter wants to square off with their opponent, they take a large retreating step (impossible in warband). Bear in mind this is a duel in a very controlled environment with various contact rules. In a large battle, sometimes you are outnumbered, requiring skilled evasion to escape certain death, perhaps to rejoin your force, kite the enemy or reach an advantageous position.

Video games are also not analogous but in the opposite way, in that everyone is essentially insane with a death wish because of the lack of consequence. IMO this makes evasive techniques all the more important, as players will kill their teammates to reach you or leave themselves wide open with arrogant blind flurries.

Evaision, dodging, dashing... it's all about moving into space. It allows you to have more control over the pace of a fight. Without it, you are a slave to the speed or attacks, parries, move acceleration, e.t.c. dictated by the programmers. If you think about Dark Souls or other games that have you fighting massive beasts... you are at an inherent disadvantage and spend a lot of time rolling around to escape giant smash attacks or whatever. Well, do you expect every fight to be evenly matched in a melee combat game, or every moment of every fight? Sometimes you need to GTFO, or go under or go around. It's just a natural. I mean, ****, are you going to just stand there if you're about to get hit by a train. No, you GTFO.

And if you can't bend your knees, or bend at the waist. Where is your power coming from? It goes feet, knees, hips, back, shoulders, head, arms... roughly in that order.

People are so damn sarky. Dodge does not mean throwing yourself onto the ground and rolling around necessarily.

I'm just suggesting more ways to evade than basic WASD.

Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKXavKvWd28
How can you defend the lack of crouching to evade a horizontal strike?

Fencing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGearEu2PlU
How can you defend the lack of a backwards dash to evade a thrust?
Or the lack of a fowards dash to land one?

People don't just trundle around at an arbitrarily fixed velocity. This is what I mean by a dodge/dash. It's just unrealistic without it. I mean you can't even bend at the waist in Warband. Why defend that?

And re: boxing. I wouldn't pick up a sword before knowing how to fight with my hands. Many martial arts start with basic stance and footwork, move on to hand to hand techniques (including ground work) before progressing to weapons.

The length of the weapon is irrelevant. A sword swung at your head is as difficult to evade as a right hook or jab.

Re: tentative, defensive play. There's nothing wrong with that. If you can frustrate your enemy into making a mistake you still win the fight. Good fighters use tentative, defensive style to feel out their opponent or wear them down. There are valid reasons to fight like this. For example a taller person will want to use range to their advantage. Or a lighter fighter will not want to engage a heavy fighter in a static fight, instead using their speed and agility to circle/counter. But none of this stops pure, unrelenting aggression being a winning tactic. It's all part of a balanced fighting style.

"Float like a butterfly. Sting like a bee." - Muhammed Ali.
"Water can flow and it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee.

DanAngleland said:

If balanced properly dodging could be good for the game. The most obvious way to me to do it is for a double tap of W,S,A or D for a quick step. W would give you a quick lunge forward, S would be a quick hop backward and A and D would quickly lean the torso over to either side, getting the head out of the way (if the attack was aimed at your waist, obviously the side dodge wouldn't help!).
Perhaps an even better way would be to use one of the keys around WSAD or to the left of the space bar, keys which are close at hand and easy to find by touch. This would be quicker than a double tap.

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Nice I like the idea of a subtle dodge. Regarding controls, WotV uses an Alt+WASD scheme, which works fine.

Novacc said:

mikemhz said:

What? Grammar? Want me to write, "Lack of an 8 directional dodge mechanic?" Or do you actually have something to add to the discussion?

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It's a dumb idea, no explanation necessary.

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IDK about anyone else but to me it seems like this guy is unwilling to participate in a discussion yet he is posting in this thread and being insulting. Admin?

And it's not a dumb idea. It's been used in many, many games before.

Hate these snarky commenters 

Honestly, I've had the same kind of response every time I've posted here, over years, criticizing your precious, perfect fighting simulator.

Dryykon said:

This thread had a small chance despite the title.

Then died immediately.

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Hmm sure it's not just you being... idk what to call it. Intolerant? An ass?

Novacc said:

One thing that will make or break Bannerlord for me

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1. Dodge (8 directions).

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What? Grammar? Want me to write, "Lack of an 8 directional dodge mechanic?" Or do you actually have something to add to the discussion?

One word "usually". Yes, dodging can gain you an advantageous position from which to attack, but the advantage may sometimes be forcing your opponent to whiff or give up their position (thinking, as you do, that a dodge will be accompanied by an attack). A feint if you will.

But a whiff (or miss) is just that, a miss. There are many ways to force a miss. But if you want to close in on your opponent, a dodge inside, outside or under the attack is extremely effective. Or a dodge can allow you to increase distance to square off with an opponent and catch your breath/compose yourself.

These aren't my main reasons for wanting a dodge mechanic, though. It's just basic, simple, obvious, life preservation. Much unforeseen things can happen in a fight and being able to evade attacks from a disadvantaged, near-hopeless position is really important for a believable fight.

Sure right now you can S weave with the mouse around all the perfectly horizontal swings, millimetres out of range, but that is not always an option, so there needs to be more options if this is truly going to simulate a fight for your LIFE.

You assume I am wearing full plate.

EVEN IF I WERE: I would still be able to take a longer stride and lean my head and body to avoid a blow.
Have any of you taken any kind of fighting class? This is basic ****. Footwork, guys. It's natural. It can happen automatically. Unless you're a deer on a dark road about to get hit by a car with its headlights on. It's called flinching. Dodging can be intentional flinching and you will do it whether you are naked or your shoelaces are tied together.

Oh and if they're going to kick me if I crouch. LET THEM. It's a game no?

And a "crouch" could be lowering your head and shoulders, bending your knees 5 degrees to avoid a deadly blow, only to spring load your entire body for a counter attack.

I just wanted to give some feedback about the world map...

1. New font, please.

2. The map looks really nice but place names are very bright. Could we have the option to only show text on the world map when we mouse-over a town or NPC? That would be more immersive.

3. It would be nice if (in place of the plain text place names) there was a box with some information about the town useful to the player.

Oh and are some various different 3rd person camera angles possible?

Thanks. I enjoyed the video. Keep up the good work.

Mooncabbage said:

mikemhz said:

If our special forces are anything to judge by (let alone the regular army), then it can be assumed that stamina is virtually a non-issue during battles the size of M&B, a least with highly trained troops. So the ability to charge/sprint would be great.

My agility is maxed out... still feels like I'm running in water.

Another idea. Travelling on the world map could be revamped to be far more realistic. For example it is impossible to travel the length of Great Britain in one day by any means of medieval travel. So rather than making the speed of travel realistic, greatly increase the amount of time that passes while travelling. To stop the player accidentally travelling 3 days out of their way there might need to be a 'Travel to...' option that takes your party along a route defined by your party size and composition. The travelling could be interrupted by certain events to allow players to micro manage important tactical manoeuvres... such as running away from your foes!

Expanding on this idea, it would be nice to see most travelling parties set up camp at night. I've noticed that the AI doesn't do this. Each of these camps could act as temporary cities, with traders, hand-to-hand tournaments, and other opportunities, depending again on the size and composition of the party.

Really, the ideal would be an open world. But I'd like to see more ideas to simulate an open world, using the current Total War style miniature world. It would definitely be worth a lot, aesthetically, to have a high LOD on the world map. It would just add a lot more atmosphere to be able to see detailed fields, forests, meadows, wind, rain, wildlife. Think of the first level of Titan Quest with less detail and a smaller scale (and larger size).

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There is an option setting, called something like "Battle Speed" or something. I have mine set quite low, personal preference, but you can set it quite high i think.

It's not really possible to have a "High" level of detail on the world map, due to a limit on the number of polygons you can use to create the world map. I'm not sure about weather, I think it could probably be simulated on some level though.

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I know about battle speed. The fact is that the movement in Mount&Blade makes it feel like a low-budget game. Everyone I've shown it to remarks about the fact you can't sprint. Even games on the PS1 that used analogue allowed you to accurately control the speed of your avatar. It's just silly to have a single speed human being. You can only get away with that if they move very fast. This is something that bugs me a lot about first person shooters. For some reason many developers believe human beings move stupidly slow 90% of the time, and often find it impossible to negotiate obstacles higher than ankle height.

On the matter of detail on the world map. I did say it was an ideal. I was thinking of later iterations of the game. But meanwhile, sprites could be used for grass, grain, flowers, butterflies, birds e.t.c. I don't believe sprites use polygons? Aren't sprites just like static particles? Otherwise I think we can all agree that TaleWorlds need to work on their engine.

Still, faster night & day cycles and NPC camps.

If our special forces are anything to judge by (let alone the regular army), then it can be assumed that stamina is virtually a non-issue during battles the size of M&B, a least with highly trained troops. So the ability to charge/sprint would be great.

My agility is maxed out... still feels like I'm running in water.

Another idea. Travelling on the world map could be revamped to be far more realistic. For example it is impossible to travel the length of Great Britain in one day by any means of medieval travel. So rather than making the speed of travel realistic, greatly increase the amount of time that passes while travelling. To stop the player accidentally travelling 3 days out of their way there might need to be a 'Travel to...' option that takes your party along a route defined by your party size and composition. The travelling could be interrupted by certain events to allow players to micro manage important tactical manoeuvres... such as running away from your foes!

Expanding on this idea, it would be nice to see most travelling parties set up camp at night. I've noticed that the AI doesn't do this. Each of these camps could act as temporary cities, with traders, hand-to-hand tournaments, and other opportunities, depending again on the size and composition of the party.

Really, the ideal would be an open world. But I'd like to see more ideas to simulate an open world, using the current Total War style miniature world. It would definitely be worth a lot, aesthetically, to have a high LOD on the world map. It would just add a lot more atmosphere to be able to see detailed fields, forests, meadows, wind, rain, wildlife. Think of the first level of Titan Quest with less detail and a smaller scale (and larger size).

Haha yeah not totally blunt. Although I read in an sas survival book that there's and optimal trade-off between sharpness and durability. Maybe he's exaggerating the high durability side of things. Making a blade ready for war was probably what defined the great blacksmiths. Perhaps the mass produced blades were built to last.

On the topic of sprint and crouch. Stamina isn't really necessary. Adrenaline would allow most healthy people to run for miles. I just want to feel like I've got a little momentum running forward fluidly. It would make the battle so much more adrenaline pumping. Some real improvements to the movement would generally be nice. Maybe the movement just needs to be faster all the time? Is there any way I can change that myself?

Crouch is only really important in multiplayer iIthink... that might add something to the combat... although dodge/parry would be a more realistic ability in the context.

Old to who?
I was just mildly interested and googled it. If we can compile links to reliable sources here, it might help someone.
Personally I'm very interested in translating the reality of mele combat into a fun video game.
Until now I'd only shown interest in Asian martial arts. So forgive my ignorance in medieval matters. Clearly there are a lot of historians in this community.

Also, many of the images in the link I gave are taken directly from the Fiore dei Liberi and compared to 20th C combat manuals. So it can't be all bad.

How about a sprint button? IMO it's sorely missing from the vanilla game...

No need for that. I'm in the right 'frigging' thread aren't I?

Are you guys making a new world (and battle?) map?
Could you show off some of your work?
I'd like to see if I can add anything to this mod through mapping.