Prophesy of Pendor Version 3.0 Status Update

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Caravan raiding doesn't draw as much negative attention as razing villages or murdering peasants do,but it eventually comes to bite you in the ass through a humanitarian charactered companion. It was quite rare,and I'm sure it is also still quite rare. Feel free to raid caravans when you need to,just be ready for some contention drop and once in a while a loud objection. But you just must not raze villages or kill peasants with a humanitarian companions.

~Ãbyss
 
@Sarpedon: Companion likes, dislikes, objections are based on their individual character traits and personalities, rather than on convenience or arbitrary assignment  - a lot of thought went into it, I can tell you.  No Player needs to constantly do all of those things - once or twice because you have to raid or loot won't make companions leave, just complain.  They won't leave if you have to chase down that last, elusive caravan to conquer a faction completely, or whack that last batch of refugees in a faction, for example.  They will object and leave if you do it on a regular basis.

If you are playing as a "bad" character, you won't have many companions, though.  This follows through on SD's stated aim that Player be a "good" player rather than a villainous one.  A "good" player only raids villages and caravans as necessary, not routinely, as he is also (I hope) not stupid.  If you want to take over a faction, it will not benefit you to be on bad terms with their patrolling knights and Orders, their towns and merchants or their peasants.  After all, they will eventually be yours, not the enemy's.  Edit: And you will have to do a lot of work, all the while being attacked, to remedy your bad relations with your conquered faction.
 
A few comments:

1. Great post saxondragon. The thoughts behind the process show why your mod is the best out there.

2. The English crossbowmen were really fearsome during the middle ages. The French though, mostly used the crossbow.

3. The Ancient Greeks and the Romans mostly used the bow in combat, not the crossbow, especially since the Peloponnesian war. At the beginning of that war, according to Pericles, Athens had a force of 1,600 archers, apart from its force of "ιπποτοξότες" (ippotoksotes), meaning mounted archers. Although crossbows clearly existed, they were never part of our war culture. Greek gods, such as Artemis and Apollo used the bow, Greek mythical heroes, such as Heracles, Philoctetes and Odysseus the same. There were never crossbowmen units in Ancient Greece. Contrarily, there were archer units. Athenians also sported archery units BEFORE the Peloponnesian war. They mostly employed against the Persian cavalry during the Persian Wars, for instance. And so on. So, Abyss, it is you who is misled here, not I.

4. I mentioned the Rodocks mechanically-wise, not concept-wise. The Rodocks sport armored crossbowmen and so does the empire, Pikemen and so does the empire and so on. Mechanically-wise, I repeat. It is clear that saxondragon created the Fierdsvain after the Nords, the Ravenstern after the Vaegirs, the D'Shar after the Khergits, the Sarleon after the Swadians and the Empire after the Rhodocks and, then, expanded on their themes, adding and subtracting things to create five new unique nations.

Double post: sorry about that.
 
Serazu said:
A few comments:

1. Great post saxondragon. The thoughts behind the process show why your mod is the best out there.

2. The English crossbowmen were really fearsome during the middle ages. The French though, mostly used the crossbow.
And those two sentences make sense together? Okay...

3. The Ancient Greeks and the Romans mostly used the bow in combat, not the crossbow, especially since the Peloponnesian war. At the beginning of that war, according to Pericles, Athens had a force of 1,600 archers, apart from its force of "ιπποτοξότες" (ippotoksotes), meaning mounted archers. Although crossbows clearly existed, they were never part of our war culture. Greek gods, such as Artemis and Apollo used the bow, Greek mythical heroes, such as Heracles, Philoctetes and Odysseus the same. There were never crossbowmen units in Ancient Greece. Contrarily, there were archer units. Athenians also sported archery units BEFORE the Peloponnesian war. They mostly employed against the Persian cavalry during the Persian Wars, for instance. And so on. So, Abyss, it is you who is misled here, not I.

Mythical heroes and mythical gods can be depicted using bunny firing BFG's,because that's the point,they are MYTHICAL. I have a clear disregard for your wikipedia'd history lecture,even if it's something you learned in history books,I disregard it,hence you did not see it happening firsthand and I don't know the writer of that book even remotely to see if he's trustable or not.
Anyone can write anything and claim it's true,and back then with history books,even an old man's charade can be accepted a viable source of history information just because there had been no other written text that claims otherwise in that period.
Unless you can say that some archaelogists found "bow fossils" (yeah sure) that date back to the Peloponessian War and are admittedly Greek,all you bring out as proof or source is irrelevant to me.OF COURSE they used bows,according to Turkmani legends bow was the original and first weapon of Man.Every culture in history has used bows. It's blatantly obvious. Even the American Indians that people have no idea how the hell they just happened to be in America away from all Europe till 15-16th century favor bows greatly.
I will not debate whether Greeks loved bows or crossbows more,because this is a fool's cause and will remain a debate unless some time traveller from old Greece comes and claims that Greek people loved bows/crossbows more than its counterpart.


4. I mentioned the Rodocks mechanically-wise, not concept-wise. The Rodocks sport armored crossbowmen and so does the empire, Pikemen and so does the empire and so on. Mechanically-wise, I repeat. It is clear that saxondragon created the Fierdsvain after the Nords, the Ravenstern after the Vaegirs, the D'Shar after the Khergits, the Sarleon after the Swadians and the Empire after the Rhodocks and, then, expanded on their themes, adding and subtracting things to create five new unique nations.
It's RHODOKS,for love sake.

So Mr. Greek Historian,I'm looking forward to see what course of action you will prefer.

Have a nice day,
~Ãbyss
 
You probably read this for the first time, but most of what we know today about war formations, tactics, weaponry used etc. in antiquity we know it from accounts by the historians of the time, such as Herodotus, Thycydides, Xenophon etc. Whether you pay attention to what they wrote or not matters nothing to me.

By the way, thanks for the correction concerning the "Rhodok" spelling. You make me a better man and I am grateful.

Have a nice day, too.
 
How's about you all move this discussion  - and your posts on the subject - to the new thread on the first page of this forum, which is for non-PoP 3 related discussion of historical weapons, armor, battle strategy and so on?  That way, this thread won't be derailed.  This thread is for PoP 3 Status Updates.
 
I think the balance works out pretty well.  The mechanical backstory for the Empire fits.  Plus look at the dynamics of each faction:
Empire has exceptional short-range missile weapons with the legionnaires, the backbone of their armies.  If they had a solid backing of archers as well that would mean they could keep up a persistent, long range fire on your forces and then come in with their short range missiles to finish the job.  At least with the crossbow specialty, the long range support they provide is inconsistent.  So they have a long range option that can be very effective without dominating the missle-game against every other faction.
If Sarleon has only crossbows, they might pack a punch, but that would be their only ranged option and again, their entire faction would only be able to provide powerful, but inconsistent support across the field.
Sarleon, now, has good, tough middleweight archery to provide basic support across the battlefield.  It works out well.  Plus, as SD mentioned, it is a stretch enough to say that these factions are 'based' on vanilla or historical societies.  But bringing in the gods of a historical culture from two millenia ago and trying to integrate that into a point why a PoP faction should have bows of xbows for a faction is a stretch.  Bows were still not a significant part of Roman or Greek warfare and it makes sense to me that a decaying Roman empire would forego official bow training eventually and just hand out point-and-shoot devices to the masses and the ones who mastered the device would form an experienced part of the army. 

EDIT: Tried to bring it back to PoP Fawz, don't want you to have to regulate moderator style with that new hammer of yours
 
Serazu said:
A few comments:

1. Great post saxondragon. The thoughts behind the process show why your mod is the best out there.
Thank you for your kind words.


Serazu said:
A few comments:

2. The English crossbowmen were really fearsome during the middle ages. The French though, mostly used the crossbow. 
I agree completely. 


Serazu said:
A few comments:

3. The Ancient Greeks and the Romans mostly used the bow in combat, not the crossbow, especially since the Peloponnesian war. At the beginning of that war, according to Pericles, Athens had a force of 1,600 archers, apart from its force of "ιπποτοξότες" (ippotoksotes), meaning mounted archers. Although crossbows clearly existed, they were never part of our war culture. Greek gods, such as Artemis and Apollo used the bow, Greek mythical heroes, such as Heracles, Philoctetes and Odysseus the same. There were never crossbowmen units in Ancient Greece. Contrarily, there were archer units. Athenians also sported archery units BEFORE the Peloponnesian war. They mostly employed against the Persian cavalry during the Persian Wars, for instance. And so on. So, Abyss, it is you who is misled here, not I.
True.. and it is noteworthy that as early as 5th century BC the Greeks had the ability to create crossbows.
Interesting that they did not adopt them more widely.   

Serazu said:
A few comments:

4. I mentioned the Rodocks mechanically-wise, not concept-wise. The Rodocks sport armored crossbowmen and so does the empire, Pikemen and so does the empire and so on. Mechanically-wise, I repeat. It is clear that saxondragon created the Fierdsvain after the Nords, the Ravenstern after the Vaegirs, the D'Shar after the Khergits, the Sarleon after the Swadians and the Empire after the Rhodocks and, then, expanded on their themes, adding and subtracting things to create five new unique nations.
Yes, the concepts we brought forth maintained the fundamental concepts of the native races, but trying to off set the obvious superiority of the Swadian Knights.

Of note here, and I hope you find this as interesting as I do, are the Jatu. 

While not a main faction in the game, they are extremely deadly. 

The interesting aspect of these troops is a viewpoint I was given a dozen years or so ago by a gentlemen who was kind enough to discuss with me part of his PhD. Thesis on the evolution the warfare.  One of the interesting ideas he put forward was that it was not “armor and firepower” that is the primary evolutionary tract, but rather “mobility and firepower”.

As we look at the Jatu for example, they are not greatly armored, but they do have two distinct advantages.  They are extremely fast, and they hit hard. 

What was interesting to me, and the thrust of this post, was we gave to the Jatu these “Honor Lances”, which were just a bit longer (but on-par damage wise with the other lances).  There were no other changes to them from 2.5.  The effects of this minor change make these troops significantly more deadly.  This had the effect that half of the Dev team believes that they should be “nerfed” and that they are overpowered.

I thought that you would find some value in this observation and this perspective.

Best regards,

Saxondragon
 
Nice job, Sarpedon.  Rather than wield the hammer, I put up a new thread for non-PoP3 overall historical battle and weapons discussions so this thread can stay on the PoP 3 topic.

I'm not in the "nerf the Jatu" club, SD - I like the new honor lances and gave them to Sir Roland, Sir Jocelyn, Boadice, Sir Rayne and Sir Alistair and they are nailing the Jatu pretty effectively, though casualties on my side remain higher in a Jatu battle than in V 2.5, and the Jatu weren't easy there, either!
 
At this juncture I imagine the utter horror of a Jatu warlord equipped with some kind of "honor jarid" riding around and hurling barbed death into my poor, poor Legionnaires and Huscarls  :shock:
 
I just had the fear of god put into me by a heroine adventurer... she singlehandedly killed me and my entire army.  I don't think the jatu will inherit pendor, but really angry warrior females tired of generations of subjugation. 
 
sairtar said:
I just had the fear of god put into me by a heroine adventurer... she singlehandedly killed me and my entire army.  I don't think the jatu will inherit pendor, but really angry warrior females tired of generations of subjugation.

Hero and especially Heroine Adventurers are very nasty pieces of work. I scream of vengeance and satisfaction when I mash one's face in tournaments with a blunted hatchet,no less in real combat.
Hate them,they are masters at getting in VERY lucky and cheap shots,also very damaging at the same time.

~Ãbyss
 
I was looking at the companion likes and dislikes, and one thing I quickly noticed is that almost all the likes are man to woman. That seemed a bit odd to me as I would think that outside of love interests, men tend to be friends with men and women tend to be friends with women. Are these then considered to be love interests? I did note that some of the likes are explained as "crushes", but most are not explained.
 
You can be buddies with men as a men,but you'll most likely always be more intimate friends with a woman rather than a man.
Not being a woman I do not know if this holds true for women,but I have had many woman friends who found other women nasty and preferred company of men instead.

You also can consider many of them love interests unless told not to,by the companions themselves,such as Sir Roland.
Diev wants to marry Leslie,Siggy's dying to bang Sara,Riva and Kassim both being raiders seem quite intimate,also Sir Jocelyn+Boadice and Sir Alistair+Alyssa couples seem quite like lovebirds,wouldn't you say?

~Ãbyss
 
1. Sir Roland likes Kaverra because she overcame terrible adversity bravely and Kaverra likes Sir Roland because he treats her in a brotherly and gentlemanly way.  There is no romanticism there.  He also probably hopes to convert her to Astraea's worship, as he's very devout.

2. Sir Jocelyn likes Boadice's battle training and fighting skill, but is half-scared to death of her.  She doesn't like men, and considers them inferiors fit only for slavery, so there is no romantic interest there.  She is slightly pleased by his compliments on her battle skills, but really doesn't want or need compliments.

3. Siggy and Sara like to flirt, bonk and booze it up.  Every troop needs some party animals!

4. Ansen has a crush on Adonja, but she mostly thinks it is funny.  He's a kid, she's pretty, these things happen.

5. Ediz and Sir Rayne like each other because they have similar codes of honor.  (Not to say both of them have their heads up their butts in terms of carrying their concepts of "honor" to great lengths.)

6. Fred and Donavan like each other from a militaristic standpoint and because they are both a bit martinet-ish.  Military men with similar ideas about troop discipline generally get along well.

7. Alyssa and Sir Alistair like each other because they are both about equally nasty in different ways, so they can relate.
They also think each other's jokes are funny, which is a sure road to friendship.

8. Diev and Leslie view each other as much from a trader's business partner aspect as a romantic one.  Leslie is the product of generations of a trading family and Diev was raised by a caravan master, so they have common interests and understand each other.

9. Lethaldiran says that he likes Julia for her martial skills, but he's a reprobate and can't resist propositioning her as well.
She likes him because he teaches her Noldor sword fighting techniques - both are professionals and espect that.

10. Riva and Kassim liked one another in PoP V 2.5 - that didn't change.  He also is scared to make a move on her in case he wakes up with his throat slit.

Most of this is explained in their dialogs with Player and each other.  I don't think, based on this, that one can say the likes/dislikes are particularly based on sexual reactions of  men and women to one another, but rather on endogamy - like appealing to like.  As with their objections to certain types of Player actions, we based their likes/dislikes on the logic of the way their characters developed as we worked on them.  They became "real people" to me, as I spent a great deal of time on them, and after awhile quite nearly took on lives of their own.

Edit: I'd go so far as to say that it was the companions who dictated their likes and dislikes to me, rather than the reverse!




 
saxondragon said:
Of note here, and I hope you find this as interesting as I do, are the Jatu. 

While not a main faction in the game, they are extremely deadly. 

The interesting aspect of these troops is a viewpoint I was given a dozen years or so ago by a gentlemen who was kind enough to discuss with me part of his PhD. Thesis on the evolution the warfare.  One of the interesting ideas he put forward was that it was not “armor and firepower” that is the primary evolutionary tract, but rather “mobility and firepower”.

As we look at the Jatu for example, they are not greatly armored, but they do have two distinct advantages.  They are extremely fast, and they hit hard. 

What was interesting to me, and the thrust of this post, was we gave to the Jatu these “Honor Lances”, which were just a bit longer (but on-par damage wise with the other lances).  There were no other changes to them from 2.5.  The effects of this minor change make these troops significantly more deadly.  This had the effect that half of the Dev team believes that they should be “nerfed” and that they are overpowered.

I thought that you would find some value in this observation and this perspective.

Best regards,

Saxondragon

Saxondragon, the Jatu was one of your most brilliant ideas in a mod full of brilliant ideas. You managed to re-awaken to players a primitive fear all civilized nations felt, whether western (Greeks, Romans and so on) or oriental (Chinese, Indians and so on), towards the aggressive nations of central Asia, such as the Huns or the Mongols, with their hoards that left nothing in their path, sth neither the Khergits nor the D'Shar managed to do. I still remember with dread my first "touch" with them. Never had I faced such a deadly enemy. The Noldors are better fighters of course, but I was not taken by surprise by the time I faced them. The Jatu however were a nasty surprise. As far as the artistic concept is concerned, they are pure winners. I hate them with a passion, being strong AND fast, but the image of a Jatu Lancer on his steed is a marvel to watch. Even names such as "K'Juda", "Zulkar", "Jatu" and "Kajahar" fit the theme properly.
 
Fawzia dokhtar-i-Sanjar said:
1. Sir Roland likes Kaverra because she overcame terrible adversity bravely and Kaverra likes Sir Roland because he treats her in a brotherly and gentlemanly way.  There is no romanticism there.  He also probably hopes to convert her to Astraea's worship, as he's very devout.

2. Sir Jocelyn likes Boadice's battle training and fighting skill, but is half-scared to death of her.  She doesn't like men, and considers them inferiors, so there is no romantic interest there.

3. Siggy and Sara like to flirt, bonk and booze it up.

4. Ansen has a crush on Adonja, but she mostly thinks it is funny.  He's a kid, she's pretty, these things happen.

5. Ediz and Sir Rayne like each other because they have similar codes of honor.

6. Fred and Donavan like each other from a militaristic standpoint and because they are both a bit martinet-ish.

7. Alyssa and Sir Alistair like each other because they are both about equally nasty in different ways, so they can relate.

8. Diev and Leslie view each other as much from a trader's business partner aspect as a romantic one.

9. Lethaldiran says that he likes Julia for her martial skills, but he's a reprobate and can't resist propositioning her as well.
She likes him because he teaches her Noldor sword fighting techniques.

10. Riva and Kassim liked one another in PoP V 2.5 - that didn't change.  He also is scared to make a move on her in case he wakes up with his throat slit.

Most of this is explained in the dialogs with Player and each other.  I don't think, based on this, that one can say the likes/dislikes are chiefly between men and women.  As with their objections to certain types of Player actions, we based their likes/dislikes on the logic of the way their characters developed as we worked on them.  They became "real people" to me, as I spent a great deal of time on them, and after awhile quite nearly took on lives of their own.

The mark of an artist. 
Sounds good, Donovan sounds like he will fit in great with a Mettenhiem-ish squad.  He was always the one i wanted to fit in, but couldn't because of Ansen etc. (althuogh I always felt that little woodcock could use a little Donovan style bootcamp)
 
Wait until you hear what Fred has to say to and about Ansen, the poor baby.  Look at Abyss' recommended groupings in the FAQ section and you will see where Ansen fits in.
 
I never meant to imply that men and women cannot be friends, it’s just that the way it is set up in the companion relationships, every like is set up to be man to woman, except for Frederick and Donovan, but there were no women left for them to be friends with.  :smile:  So it’s not that there are likes between men and women that struck me as odd, it’s just that every one turned out to be that way. Was that a conscious design decision to have a man and a woman counterpart that tend to feel the same way, or did it just kind of turn out that way without you thinking about it?

I'm not talking about the dislikes here, only the likes.
 
Jatu! I agree, the Jatu are awesome and the #1 group I like to fight against - good cav challenge!

Also probably my favorite voice acting moment in-game "Jatu!"
 
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