Mod´s Mod by QuickDagger (former RTW Hegemonia City States Stats Balancer)DisclaimerI don´t have, and never had, any intention to modify Lynores work. This mod´s mod was made for my personal use only and now I share it with anyone who may want to try it by his own risk and responsibility.
Historical Notes0% of feeling decisions or wishes and 100% historic accurate Osprey based decisions when it comes to troops equipments.
Lynores restrictions still apply such as not adding pylos helmet for aesthetical reasons.
AI restrictions still apply too. No way to give swords and spears to hoplites because they will almost always choose the swords and the targeted phalanxes spear fighting gets screwed. So, they have spears only.
I´ve found no evidence of spolas armor during TPW and, a little after that period either. So, it´s is kept at a minimum.
At TPW time they have not invented the cavalry´s shield and spear combo yet. They had no shields and they were mainly javelin throwers. Wonder what? … Heavy cavalry had no shields because their bronze cuirasses did the trick. Some say the invention of the longer lance kamax has originated in Thessaly.
Light hoplites, the ekdromos, were largely used at that time and they are common on this mod´s mod.
TPW was made of many alliances among many different cultures and sub-cultures. Because of M&B engine limitations such as each faction can have only one starting troop it would be impossible to bring those many “other factions” into game. That´s why the new troop trees bring different lineages on the same factions. When it comes to Thracians almost every troop represents a different tribe. But, the final result is very lively.
Although the Krypteia was a specific event (instead of a routine) for Lacedemonians it was too good a one event not to be brought into gameplay. Besides its secrecy (historians may say that because they don´t know much about it) it was a kind of Agoge´s final exam, so that they could become equals (not exactly full citizen yet, wich happened 10 years later, at the age of 30). And, that´s perfect for this mod: just kill helots to become Spartans. You have all the elements you need: Krypteia youths and lots of low level helots to help you upgrade your Lacedemonians and any other troopers. Get ready for the carnage!!!
Some Helenic (later than TPW) were used for Thracian troops such as pezheitairoi, hypaspist or sarissaioi for 2 reasons: 1) There´s no faction Macedonia. In fact it was “sleeping” yet and I could not ignore it, so that I´ve (wrongly, I know) considered them to be Thracians 2) Because of the short time between TPW and Phillips Macedon conquests, some authors suggest that some elements of the Macedon Helenic army of Alexander The Great might already had started developing during TPW. I´ve just picked the more evident elements.
It is very hard to tell about Lacedemonian night operations mountain commandos, the Skiritai. Some later researches suggest they were dressed in hides but, then historians say they have fought on phalanx formations when needed but could not hold for too much. So, it is hard to figure out what kind of body armor they had. In my opinion, anyone ready to fight on the phalanx must have had armor, except he ekdromeis who had specific tasks. So, Skiritai comes with spolas until any new discover or good argument.
Thebans did not wear greaves. So, I´ve made their ekdromeis without greaves but gave them to the hoplites and elites because, in my opinion, they were richer and certainly not fools.
Historically each battle has had different proportions among cavalry, hoplites and light troops. Making a rough average, at the time of TPW, the number of light troops could be (taking easy on that) the same of the hoplites, being light troops the peltasts and helots and hoplites including the ekdromeis. And, cavalry was something around 10% of the total troops. In the end of TPW cavalry and missile troops were more numerous.
In TPW both sides have ended the war losing considerable “amounts” of their populations. In this mod´s mod it can be the same. The amount of troops each city/castle/lord can re-spawn is directly proportional to their wealth. So, if you pillage all the villages, in time you will benefit from the enemy´s lack of troops.
Some MeaningsEretai were the trireme rowers. They were conscripted by lots.
Akontistai were the javelin throwers, without shields
Peltastai were the javelin throwers carrying the pelta shield
Hamippoi were the cavalry auxiliaries, the same as akontistai but, detached in order to increase synergy with cavalry. An interesting rule for them is that they were used to cut enemies´ horses bellies and, they were deployed holding friendly horses tails. An interesting way to remain strict to their role.
Ekdromoi were the runners. A lesson from the Persian wars, when they had to close ranks ASAP with their opponents. They had no torso armor.
Toxotai were the archers.
Hoplitai were the … can you gess? … the hoplites.
Epilektoi were the elite hoplites. Do not confuse them with logades (those who have made an oath to never let the phalanx brake) or hippies (mounted bodyguards, exception: Spartan hippies had no horses).
Hippotoxotai were the horse archers.
Prodromoi were the light cavalries. Javaliners.
Tarantinoi. Same as Prodromoi but, the term seems to have been used more by Lacedemonians to describe their Perioikoi cavalry.
Epivatai were the marines. Because they had to fight aboard ships and had no torso armor (or possibly a linothorax) or greaves. They had to fight with swords instead of spears. The curiosity is that triremes were not capable of sailing for more than a day (or something like that) so, they had to dock ships every day, preferably every night in order to attract less attention. Epivates plundered the land around the ports in order to aquire supplies for the next day. This simple bottleneck has directed the events during TPW. If Athens wanted to expand they were in need of ships and, ships were in need of many ports along the coast.
Perioikoi were the Lacedemonians close neighbors citizens. They were the ones allowed to trade and make arms and armors for the Lacedemonian army. Because of the Lycurgus laws Lcedemonians were not allowed to do their own equipment! Perioikoi played all the “secondary” role in the army such as being the epivatai, tarantinoi, hamippoi, peltastai and, why not, extra hoplites.
Hippotai were the heavy cavalries. Shock cavalry.
Ephebe was the Athenian military training.
Agoge was the Lacedemonian military academy.
Eromenoi … well, ask Wikipedia for help.
Meidias were the mercenaries.
Lacedemonians had mainly 2 types of slaves or helots, the Mothones and the Mothakes. Mothones helots were the ones Krypteia pursued. They were a whole people, the Messenians, enslaved by Lacdemonians. In the army they were the baggage carriers. The Mothakes helots were the citizens personal “squires” and fought by their masters side. When sponsored by their masters they perfomed the Agoge training and they were the first ones freed as Neodamodeis.
Neodamodeis were the new Lacedemonians citizens. Curiosity is that they have used the Lambda marked on their shields for the first time and that was from middle to finish of TPW so, something around 80 years after Thermopilae. Some authors say they have remained fighting for the Lacedemonian army as mercenaries after their freedom.
Hieros Lochos were the Theban elite made with the specific purpose of equalizing to Lacedemonians. They hated Spartans! They were decisive a short time after TPW. Because of that, some authors say their structure might have been started during TPW.
Olympionikes were the olimpic games champions. Lacedemonians used to be 50% of them and they have played a role in their army as the Kings bodyguards or elite from elite (hippies) from elite (homoioi). They were the ones carrying the Dokana on their shields. Historycaly they were only 2 but, since Lynores has done their shields and, in order to reflect the war freak behavior of Lacedemonians, I´ve decided to add them as the extra tier troopers.
Homoioi were the equals or Lacedemonians true citizens, the true soldiers from the Agoge.
InstallationNotes.
The following installation instructions will consider you have installed Mount and blade in
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade
And that my mod´s mod will be installed in
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade\Modules\QuickDaggerMod´sMod
If you have installed them in any other place just make the proper adjustments on the file paths.
1.Install Mount & Blade in
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade
2.Make a copy of your Native Module in
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade\Modules\Native
And rename it to QuickDaggerMod´sMod.
So, at this point you should be able to see this folder:
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade\Modules\QuickDaggerMod´sMod
3.Download my mod´s mod from here:
http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=18864.Extract (unzip) the content of my file (QuickDagger´sMod´sMod-Vx.zip) to
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade\Modules\QuickDaggerMod´sMod
replacing the existing files.
Those files already contain foxyman´s Form Ranks Kit.
OBS: The files I have edited are: module.ini, troops.txt, item_kinds1.txt, factions.txt, map_icons.txt, party_templates.txt, scripts.txt, menus.txt, simple_triggers.txt.
5.Go to the place you have installed TPW … it should be
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade\Modules\The Peloponnesian War
Copy the folder Resource and the folder Textures and paste them at
C:\Arquivos de programas\Mount&Blade\Modules\QuickDaggerMod´sMod
Replacing the existing ones.
Voila! My mod´s mod is installed with simple copy and paste operations.
For great graphics I suggest you install Gutekfiutek´s Polished Landscape goodies.
ChangelogVersion 4
All Scythians, but the psiloi, have Scythian bows and arrows (they are a little stroger now) But weapon damage values are maintained according to the energy stats. Lords have more troops now as an attempt to make them command 2 enomotias (or one pentecostye) of 32 men each. The aim is to make them have at least one group of phalanx (this is a Greek phalanx based game isn´t it?) and another one of phalanx or something else. Solved the problem with the command cursor. Kings have high training stats in a hope to make their troops be of higher tier. Lords are killable now. It is frustating when you spend almost your entire army to defeat a lord and the next day he has a fresh new army.
Things I could bring from the original TPW to this modMap troops icons.
Faction names.
That´s all! I did everything working on txts. No Module System!
Things I could not bring from the original TPW into this mod (because I don´t know to do)The shield bash kit. Does anyone know how to implement it but, only by editing txt files?
Faction flags by Lynores
Create own faction script.
Choose culture menu.
Death script.
Assassination requested by lords.
Killable followers (because I did not want to bring this one).
Assign Greek equipment to the main player as it is being created from scratch.
Things that were not in the original TPW and I have added to this modFor a unknown reason Lynores did not care about specific troop names such as epilektoi or homoioi. He has simply named them as officer, veteran hoplite, etc. I´ve added more historical accurate (so far) troop names.
Because Lacedemonians were the only professional soldiers at TPW time their troop tree starts one tier ahead of others and, that´s why their evolution is also slower than others. It takes a lifetime to build the best infantry in the world isn´t it?
Reviwed all the soldiers faces.
Allowed to hire more soldiers from villages.
Allowed to have bigger armies.
The games now use greek weaponry … and are bloodier! Don´t think they are going to be easy as you might gess!
Bandit groups are around 32 men, which is the enomotia, or the smallest greek military unit. And, they have one leader each, usually of a high tier.
Notes on the Troop TreeSince I had to do the troop tree one by one from scratch (because lynores has changed the total number of troops) I have added the light hoplite type, known as the ekdromos, with no armor. That does not mean that lords armies will fight without armor but, that you better train (and consequently equipping) your army before going into war.
Before you askSpears were turned into one handed weapons because AI fails to use them well against swords, thus making hoplites loose frontal engagements against daggers.
You will see that troops have the same stats. That was made in order to make modding easier to me. In fact, changing basic stats has little effects on the final results.
And, you will see also that all weapon skills are the same. That changes absolutely nothing because those numbers will apply only if the soldier has this or that specific weapon. Since each soldier has only one weapon, say a spear, it doesn´t matter if he has 200 skills in bow, 2 handed weapon, crossbow, polearms, etc.
Notes on arms and armorsI took my 20 years martial arts experience in Khali and Kenjutsu and assigned almost the same high speed to every weapon. In a real fight the longer weapon ALWAYS strikes first. But, M&B AWFULL MISTAKE is to make soldiers run like hell, even if they are standing still their animation is that of someone running on a slippery ground. Because of this f*****g rookie´s unexperienced real life fighters thing anyone with a dagger could strike first someone with a spear. In order from minimizing this effect I´ve assigned faster speeds to all weapons as well as 0 athletics to everyone as well as increased weight to all clothes and armors. On a real life armored combat soldiers do not get slower because they wear armor. They get tired because they have armor. Ask someone who owns a set of armor to perform 20 fast strikes with and without armor and you will see the speed is almost the same. Armor weights should impact on marching speed for long distances but not for 10 minute fights. So, everyone must move at the same slower speed on the battlefield. Although all clothes have the same weight and all soldiers have the same stats troops do not move at the same speed because the weapons, shields and helmets they might be carrying still retain their different weights. Please, understand that this measure only makes people run and walk slower while their weapon attacks are even faster than before.
I´ve ridden horses too and good ones are noticeable better and faster than smaller slower ones. You will experience that too on this mod´s mod.
Another thing is that some weapon reaches were too different from the real 3D models, so I´ve corrected their reaches as follows.
Good news here. With these reach adjustments all weapons get dirty with enemy´s blood exactly where they are supposed to be.
Balancing Weapon and Armor ValuesI´ve based the damage values on this:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com
By way of adding to Cole's post, I will provide some figures for the energy of ancient weapons. Bear in mind that these are very approximate, because there are many factors affecting the energy delivered at target by a particular blow/strike or weapon. These figures come from P.H. Blyth's "Effectiveness of Greek Armour against arrows in the Persian War", which was a multi-disciplinary study of the subject and the figures are quite conservative.. It dealt very well with the subject of Helmets and Shields, but the subject of body armour, and the Tube-and-Yoke corselet in particular received little or no attention, simply because not enough, then or now, was known about it's construction:
Weapon: Mass: Delivery method: Energy
Club, Axe or Greek sword : 2kg ; used two-handed ; 130 joules(96 foot lbs)
Club, Axe or Greek sword : 1 kg ; used single handed ; 65 joules(48 ft lbs)
javelin :0.8 kg ; thrown, with run-up ; 198 joules(146 ft lbs)
javelin :0.8 kg ; thrown, one pace only ; 111 joules(83 ft lbs)
javelin :0.8 kg ; thrown standing ; 60 joules(49 ft lbs)
javelin :0.8 kg ; thrown,one pace with loop ; 160 joules(118 ft lbs)
light spear or small
sword/dagger :0.8 kg ; close combat ; 30 joules(24 ft lbs)
sarissa :8(?)kg ; two-hand thrust,pace fwd ; 160 joules(118 ft lbs)
spear-butt : various ; thrust down, coup-de-grace; 50 joules (40 ft lbs)
One can see from this that energies of the order of 30-60 joules (24-49 ft lbs) could be given generally to typical Greek Hand weapons, and armour would need to resist this type of thrust, as well as slashing blows up to 60 joules(49 ft lbs)
Missile weapons:
sling bullet :24 gm swung one handed ; 30-36 joules(22-27 ft lbs)
light bow 3-6 gm arrowhead ; 20 joules at 50 metres
15-20 gm incl shaft ; 15 joules at 100 metres
9 joules at 200 metres(sufficient to penetrate flesh)
heavy bow 30 joules at 50 metres
26 joules at 100 metres
20 joules at 200 metres
Thus Persian/Scythian arrows delivered at target much the same energy range as Greek Hand weapons ( and incidently rather lower than mediaeval longbows). Of course, the arrowhead being smaller requires a much smaller ( about 2.5 times) hole to cause fatal injury, so despite the low energy (by mediaeval standards) the arrow would have some advantages over the spear...
Alan Williams, author of "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" documentented the effectiveness of 16 layers of linen armour against cuts of the sword and thrusts of the spear, and found that a mere 50 Joules of energy is needed to penetrate the fabric with a spear, and 80 for a sword cut. Over 25 layers were require to defeat a sword cut in the midrange of energy for an effective sword cut (140-220 Joules)
For reference, 50 joules is approximately what you generate when you heft a shovel full of snow.
A good paper was in Barry Molloy's book The Cuting Edge. The paper, called "The reconstruction of Scythian bows", goes into a great deal of detail as to what sources they used for their reconstructions of ancient bows including Scythian and Bashkir. They ended up testing three bows all with a draw length of around 60 cm. Results are all recorded in scatttergrams rather than tables so it is difficult to extract data, and they use meric units such as kiloponds or Newtons to measure draw-weight so it is difficult to compare with earlier tests. Unfortunately they only measure arrow velocity at a distance of 1m from the bow so it doesn't tell us much about the amount of energy that can be delivered to a target.
Here is one set of data extracted from one of their graphs.
Bow 1 Scythian 60cm draw length 205N draw weight
34g arrow averaged 38m/s (1m from bow)
36g arrow averaged 36m/s (1m from bow)
38g arrow averaged 35m/s (1m from bow)
By way of contrast to the above figures, here are some which I think come from Alan Williams "The Knight and the Blast Furnace".
Alas, where they are quoted no context is given and as we have seen, that makes all the difference.
5mm cuir-boulli requires 20 joules for spear/lance to penetrate, or 50 joules with a blade stab.90 joules for a sword cut/slash
10 mm cuir-boulli, increased to 30 joules for spear/lance and 90 joules for blade stab.
!.9 mm munition plate ( i.e. not especially hard ) 100 joules for spear/lance, 190 joules for blade stab
mail - 120 joule to pierce
Layered linen ( in view of Dan Howard's posts, presumably loose /quilted and not glued ?? )
5 layers -100 joules
9 layers -120 joules
16 layers- 140 joules
23 layers- 160 joules
26 layers -180 joules And made this…
Things I believe we need in order to keep the mod goingAt least one female cloth – desperately.
Modification of the shield defense animation so that it covers the torso from the neck to the knee (as it was made to be) instead of from the head´s top to the belly, thus leaving the thighs unprotected.
At least one of the following shield types: Thureos (used by Iphicrates reformed peltasts and Illyrians. It was one of TPW lessons that remained until the middle age); Round plain small shield (rather leather covered and/or bronze covered like those used by cretan archers and the late Macedonian phalangites. I have no idea about how 3D artists would do that free-hand-using-the-shield-on-the-wristle-thing).
Could someone make the pylos helmet work please? It is too tight to the head and that screws wearer´s hair.
A good map, but Ebin is already working on that. Hey Ebin, please, plainer maps!
Do anybody know how to give chothes the arena practicing fighters?
Things I´d like to hear from youYour comments and suggestions.
Things I will not do because I´m lazy (and I hope someone volunteers for)Set individual faces to each lord, bartender, smith, etc.
Some added txt TweaksRecruit more volunteers from villages.
Join any side on a battle.
Recruit volunteers of the same faction.
Change the time castles can hold when besieged.
Increased ransom offered for lords. A lord should be worth at least a good set of armor isn´t it?
Change the wealth of cities and castles, so that they will not upgrade troops up to the latest tier. That´s perfect because it allows historical troop proportions to be set on party_templates.txt.
Change troop wages. Generals should cost generals.
Thanks toLynores for this wonderfull mod.
Foxyman for his Form Ranks Kit.
HokieBT for his Unoficial Troop Editor.
Jordan for his Item Editor.
Thorgrim for his BRF Edit.
TheMageLord, tommylaw, Hardrada for their txt tweaks.
Tale Lords for this wonderful game.
Osprey´s publications for their serious books.
Wikipedia for the fast and easy to find information.
Sorry if I forgot anyone.
