Briton Units

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Kolba

There are several units to be added in the next versions, to get some variety in Briton factions. Most of words are taken from "A Dictionary of the Old Welsh language" by William Owen. Feel free to post some suggestions.

ALL BRITONS

Llummanwyr (Llummanwr) - Briton standard bearer. I need some ideas how the standards should be looking. I think we can have some kind of vexillum, like on the picture below but with different symbols.

LXF20vexillum.jpg


Draconarius - Briton draco bearer. Perhaps both mounted and foot soldier. I need Briton name for this unit (something like Sarffniawg, "sarff" being a dragon and "niawg" - bearer) and the model by Rathos shown below must be fixed a bit and textured.


Untitled-2-3.jpg


RHEGED

Manaw Rherel - Elite Manx spearmen. Could use mixed gaelo-brythonic equipment.

Mynyddwyr - Literally "inhabitant of the mountains". Could be a unit coming from kingdom of Dunawt Bwr, the Pennines.

Mwrthwyliwr - A "hammerer", a "hammer-man". Unit equiped with hammer.

Rhyfelwyrmawr - "Great Warriors", elite Rheged unit - upgrade of Milwyr.

ALCLUYD

Fforwyr (Fforwr) - Alcluyd mounted scout. Tunic, spear and javelins. Troop preceeding Marchoc.

Bonheddwyr - "Heroes". Upgrade of Peddestyr, lightly armored than Milwyr but faster and mobile.

GODODDIN

Gwaeffynwyr - "Skirmisher". Upgrade of Ardu.

 
I have read somewhere (can't remember which book) that Gaels and Britons were fighting with hammers. Not often, as it wasn't common weapon for battles.
 
I am sure it was a book (borrowed it from the local library), not information from the Internet.
 
Elmetiacos said:
It sounds to me like the "poisoned legacy" of Europa Barbarorum...

Heard of it. A link about it maybe?


Some Gaelic champions do fight with hammers currently, but not all of them. I don't think hammers would be that adapted to Briton warriors.
 
Morcant said:
Elmetiacos said:
It sounds to me like the "poisoned legacy" of Europa Barbarorum...
Heard of it. A link about it maybe?

Some Gaelic champions do fight with hammers currently, but not all of them. I don't think hammers would be that adapted to Briton warriors.
EB was/is a mod for Rome:Total War which was released a few years ago and was praised by just about everyone for its accuracy. They did great work on the Romans, Greeks and Parthians, but unfortunately the team got completely conned by a fraudster when it came to the Celts, with the result that a lot of fantasy units were added, such as Celtiberian elite troops in full mail from head to foot, hammer wielding Gaels and units made up entirely of Britons with two-handed swords. The fantasy units leaked out into other game mods and even into the 'net at large - if you look at German Wikipedia's article on Celtic warfare, it still talks about two handed hammers and other stuff with no sources other than this game mod (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keltische_Kriegf%C3%BChrung)

The mainEuropa Barbarorum forum is here: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=6a09b341d86038870d5dd52fab888b74&f=70
 
I always suspected that that guy was full of ****, but frankly couldn't be bothered trawling through university libraries to prove it for the sake of a game mod. Didn't he claim he had access to gaelic sources that hadn't been translated as his sources for these things?

Anyhoo, if you're giving correct names for standard bearers, Anglian standard bearers should be called "Cumbolwiga" - cumbol is a battle standard. They should probably be better armed than they are at the moment, since the few sources we have involving standards imply that an experienced warrior would be trusted with this job.
 
Elmetiacos said:
EB was/is a mod for Rome:Total War which was released a few years ago and was praised by just about everyone for its accuracy. They did great work on the Romans, Greeks and Parthians, but unfortunately the team got completely conned by a fraudster when it came to the Celts, with the result that a lot of fantasy units were added, such as Celtiberian elite troops in full mail from head to foot, hammer wielding Gaels and units made up entirely of Britons with two-handed swords. The fantasy units leaked out into other game mods and even into the 'net at large - if you look at German Wikipedia's article on Celtic warfare, it still talks about two handed hammers and other stuff with no sources other than this game mod (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keltische_Kriegf%C3%BChrung)

I know about EB and the whole controversy about this. Im just curious if there had been some final point to the story, ie Ranika or Anthony explaining their choices. I did work a lot with them on my own mod Arthurian Total War, and they always provided a great help. Since this (that was 4 years ago we started to work on the mod) I read a lot on Britain and Ireland in the 4th to 10th centuries, mostly for re-enactment purpose which involves deeper research than a mod. I have been able to crosscheck part of what the information they gave us. Far from the whole of it, yet they didn't make up all and everything.
If you have a precise link about the controversy, I will be thanksfull.
 
If you have a precise link about the controversy, I will be thanksfull.

Most of the links to controversies are now down, for unknown reason. Somebody deleted them? Homever, I've managed to find few pages:

http://livinghistory.ie/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=669&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=89631&highlight=Gael%2C+Gaelic%2C+Irish%2C+Ireland%2C+Goidelic
 
Ah yes, the notorious Riadach thread - someone turns up who actually knows stuff and the team members just shouted him down because they felt he was attacking their friend. I got the same treatment myself. Fortunately the EBII mod's Celts are in the hands of someone who does seem to be doing proper research.
 
Kolba said:
Draconarius - Briton draco bearer. Perhaps both mounted and foot soldier. I need Briton name for this unit (something like Sarffniawg, "sarff" being a dragon and "niawg" - bearer)
I trust this is accurate, but Wikipedia (lol) says "the Flag of Wales is [called] Y Ddraig Goch (English: The Red Dragon)" and Arthur's father "Uther Pendragon" is rendered "Uthyr Pendraeg" in Welsh. Draig sounds cooler than sarff to me.
 
Sarff is more literally a serpent, like the old English term Wyrm, which can apply equally to a dragon like the Lampton Wyrm, or a simple snake. Ddraig is probably derived from the Latin Draco, like the Old English Draca.
 
I have found other threads at various forums:

http://wildfiregames.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t11290.html - Post by Slim Charles (also check the links there)
http://quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=16757 - First post

And the quote about who Ranika is. The island you have here (Dungalloigh) is not listed in Google results (but it may be an Early Gaelic name of Modern Irish island). It is also interesting that he learnt a Celtic language before learning English.

Since I joined Europa Barbarorum, I have gotten access to the skills of Raighnigha. Ranika is a simpler way to spell his name I suppose. He lives in the Aran islands outside Ireland, and grew up on an island called Dungalloigh. He didn't have TV, cinema etc. There was a monestary there from old times. So aside from the usual activities of kids, playing physical games, he also read a lot inside the monestary. He learned a Celtic language before learning English. He is right now working for the catholic church, translating old documents from the monestary that nobody has gotten around to yet. He was already a part of the EB team.

He has expressed confidence that he can reconstruct three Celtic languages: Briton (easiest), Celtiberian and Gallic (hardest).
He's done 60% of the gallic commands already. This changes things for the celtic languages. No longer will we have only 1 generic language based on a modern celtic language, but 3 languages reconstructed by educated extrapolations.
Of all things that are possible, this is probably the best thing that could happen for this part of the project.

Anthony, Ranika's cousin is maybe still around Taleworlds forums, as there is user Somairle, who express in his posts same as Anthony and his knowledge level about Gaels is very similar (but it doesn't mean they are the same persons). He also posted some informations on this sub-board. I am also waiting for some kind of explanation from Ranika's relative.

Oh, and to conclude my post I have to say that I believe some part of Ranika's informations, even if they seems to be weird, as he seems to be very educated man. Not all, of course, but most.
 
Nobody is wrong all the time. Some of Anthony's stuff is correct (they are the same person) since he's had time to learn more over the past 4 or 5 years. About half of that long on the 0AD forum is correct, but it still has a lot of complete nonsense. SlimCharles seems to be someone from the EB forums who spotted him.

Your quoted section is very important. Let me recap the points I made back then on the EB forums for everyone here: Dungalloigh, as you have noticed, is not one of the Aran Islands. There are 3 inhabited Aran Islands; Inishmore (in Irish Inis Mór) Inishmaan (Inis Meáin) and Inisheer (Inis Thiar or Inis Oírr) plus some little uninhabited rocks, the Brannocks. Dungalloigh isn't a likely name for an island anyway - in Irish (if it were spelled correctly) it would mean "fort of the foreigners". Also, there is no monastery on the Aran Islands anymore and there hasn't been for hundreds of years. It's a ruin and has been since the 15th Century, iirc. In all his posts, note that he spells everything in the American way, almost as if he isn't really Irish... I brought this up on the EB forums but either Ranika had so charmed them that they wouldn't believe it, or else they were too proud to admit they had been fed garbage.
 
From what I know, Anthony lived in California.

I think the best thing would be that he explains himself about those various points, better than everyone speculates on him.
 
Anthony is actually Anthony McKinley as he has written in his signature on 0AD forum. Also look here:

http://mjrojas.com/photo1.html

It is the site of an artist (probably a friend of Anthony) who photographed him. There are also some artworks of Europa Barbarorum units (though I'd say they are more fitting for medieval Dark Ages mod - like Arthurian Total War, not mod set before born of Christ):

http://mjrojas.com/ill07.html
http://mjrojas.com/ill02.html (why is the sword so long? It looks like a sword from fourteenth or fifteenth century)
http://mjrojas.com/ill08.html
http://mjrojas.com/ill03.html

Ranika is also speaking of unexisting saints or people, or placing them in an earlier period. Here's to link to ATW board, where he is speaking about Malachai the Chronicler and he claims that mentioned Malachai lived in VIIth century. There is also Carradoc the Apostate, probably the invented writer to give an argument that name Strathclyde was existing earlier than before arrival of Vikings in the Clyde valley. He claims that gaelic name 'Stratclohm' means 'Grey Swords', which is simply bull**** because Cumbric "Ystrad" and later "Strath" mean "valley", and so is the name of kingdom - Ystrad Clud (mentioned by Taliesin or Aneurin, I don't remember exactly) and later "Strathclyde" - the valley of Clud (later Clyde).

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Imperium_Total_War/index.php?showtopic=268&st=0

Here is also a thread, containing an argument between Vortigern (member of Fectio re-enactment group if I remember correctly) and Ranika.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Imperium_Total_War/index.php?showtopic=261&st=0

Some extracts from their discussion:

Vortigern said:
Why all these weird names? Are they even authentic? You're tackling a period where the lingua militara was Latin up to the 7th century, even in Byzantium. take the proper Latin names for cavalry, like sagittarii (bowmen), scutarii (heavy infantry), clibanarii (armoured cav), why not?

Ranika said:
Not all of the kings spoke Latin as their main language, nor did most of the kingdoms. Their names are largely post-Roman British construct and some taken from source materials (such as Rhyfelwyr; it is a period term for any professional soldiers of eastern British origin {with variants such as 'Ryfeloor' in Bretonic and Cornish, and the Gaelicized variant 'Rithalairh' used in Cumbrian and Regydd's writings). Most Latin terminology was used by the kingdoms in the southern half, and western portion of that, of the island, and I believe the mod starts with most of that overrun by the Saxons, Jutes, and Angles. While the kings of the region likely spoke Latin due to dealings with the empire as it collapsed, it was not the first language of the people in the region, nor the main language (except in clerical scholarship, though sometimes Vulgar Latin was used in certain parts of kingdoms like Dumnonia). As for the Gaelic and Pictish names, the Gaelic is authentic (they wrote quite often on what they used and employed, it's just piteous little of it is translated to English either due to lack of interest or the difficulties of the early Gaelic languages; however, they wrote almost nothing in Latin, as it was uncommon except by prelates and traders; there was no need to speak Latin, since the language of the church in the regions would be the local Gaelic language and dialect, as well as all internal systems running in this language), and the Pictish is reconstructions, and seemingly authentic versions from period scholars (though they'd surely be a bit bastardized in that sense). Picts, similarly, didn't speak Latin even as a 'secondary' language, and reconstructions (or British or Gaelic equivalents) are better for the names of their soldiery.

(...)

And the most important part:

Ranika said:
In 520, the monastary of the White Oak (an Irish monastary, legendarily founded by St. Bride) composed a book about the organization of the militaries of Cymru (Wales); it was put together by three Welsh brothers, two of which were soldiers, one who was still active (that wasn't uncommon at the time; many priests/monks/etc. were in the military and could be summoned to duty if needed). While the book's name is in bastardized Latin, but almost nothing else in it is, including the names of soldiers. Should bare in mind that much of Wales was only under the defacto rule of Romans; but for forts and Roman settlements, the population largely didn't change that much. They even raised their own armies (one of the reasons for the subsequent resistance to invasion was that they weren't so woefully ill equipped to combat invasion or hostile take overs of their lands). In the Libre Milicae (Milicae being a Cymrian bastardization), the words 'Rhyfelwyr' ('warriors', referencing all professional soldiers), 'Aule' (non-soldiers; militias), 'Saetdwyr' (technically this refers to any soldier that skirmished, but is often applied to archers), 'Comtwyr' (a loan word from Latin originally, modified to this, meaning any line infantry intended to hold position, not shock), and 'Myrchaen' (any cavalry, but can be used also as 'light' cavalry, and is a few times) are all common. However, their Latin equivalents are not used so often (though the Gallicized-Latin 'Caballos' does appear a few times; kind of odd, since that form of Latin was used in the southwest of Britain, not Wales {since the southwest had been a Gallic speaking region for centuries before Rome conquered it, and was, ostensibly, for years after}). However, if anyone has the gumption (and unit space) on Agraes's part, he could maybe have two entries for units, so that certain factions could perhaps use Latin names for some things. Mind you, the composers of the book are from western Wales, where Latin was substantially more uncommon. Perhaps eastern 'Welsh' could use Latin.

Vortigern said:
Is that the name of the source? Sp.? I must admit I have never ever come this reference. Do you have a full name/modern edition/translation for me? I can't find anyting on the interent about it either.

(...)

Ranika said:
Libre Milicae is, as of yet, currently mostly untranslated (when I say I'm a linguist, I mean a professional linguist, and mainly of languages from this period; I'm helping to translate it). The name is just 'Book of Soldiery' (loosely) in English. And that's all they called it; assumably they absorbed some influences from the Irish monks there.

Vortigern said:
Ah, that's why - unpublished yet, is it? I'm a long-time poster at Arthurnet, but those I contacted had not heard of it.. How sure are you that it's 6th-century? What's it's provenance? I never saw any Early medieval British expert write about it. I'm mighty interested, that's for sure! Apart from Gildas there is no contemporary 6th-c. source, and you say you have one? Is it not some medieval (9th c.?) source claimimg to be older?

(...)

Vortigern said:
A few reactions that I got from the experts:
QUOTE
Never heard of it myself - I can tell you one thing, though - the way
the author of the "Libre Milicae" spells the Welsh "ranks" seems more
recent - probably not earlier than the Modern Welsh period (the use of
rh-, for example, doesn't date that far back in Welsh literature)- and I
can't even find "Comtwyr" or "Myrchain" even listed in the GPC - the
names look corrupt or invented to me.

That's from a Welsh linguist.

QUOTE
This looks like it should be something like "Liber Militae", don't you
think?  "T" and "C" are very similar in early texts.

That's from an English historian.

QUOTE
If it is genuine, it is an excellent find. [..] the terms
are interesting but look grabbled and certainly "rhyfelwyr" is far too
modern for the 6th century - it's a bit modern for the 13th century.

That's from another historian.
I'm not after a discussion of this source here (although I'd like to do that on another forum!!!), but since you're going to use the terminology from that source I think at least you should be certain that it fits into this period. If that last commentator is correct, at least some of is may belong to the Late Middle Ages.
 
Well, that's fairly typical. He got away with it on EB because the period studied was much further back in history and nobody else on the board knew anything about the Celts except for one person whom Ranika apparently managed to have thrown out of the EB team. When he tried it with Arthurian, he quickly got found out. "Malachai the Chronicler" couldn't exist: the name Malachy is an Anglicised version of the Irish Mael Máedóc, or "devoteee of Saint Máedóc" a saint who lived c.550-632 - making him roughly the same age as the supposed chronicler named after him - what foresight Malachai's parents must have had!
 
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