Author Topic: [suggestion] Slow things down a little  (Read 929 times)

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brohemian

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[suggestion] Slow things down a little
« on: September 23, 2009, 05:39:24 am »
I understand that this topic will likely get a quick "no" from anyone who considers themselves above average at the game, but just hear me out and read what i have to say before grabbing your torch and pitchforks. just a couple ideas here.

i believe combat has become way too fast and twitchy. this doesnt mean poop for anyone that plays autoblock only but on manual block its a different story. let it be known that im likely the biggest supporter of manual block--i think it greatly increases the skill cap and it gives that adrenaline rush over pressing a button that does the job for you. but i really, really think that weapons have become so damn fast (and powerful) that it's become detrimental to the game. i believe that in some cases manual blocking is just too difficult to pull off within the confines of what we have.

at home, i enjoy a ping of around 20 on 99% of the days (east coast 4 lyf) and its great. however, a few days ago my internets provider was being terrible, and my ping went up to something like 60-75 or so. still not bad by any standards, and damn good for most everything...except when i fired up warband. i could see the swings and whatnot, but even that 40 ms difference led to me getting rocked by any weapon near me. blocking was quite frankly impossible, even though i could see them. that small difference meant by the time i could right click to save myself, whoever's weapon already swung. it got me to thinking that sure, armagan probably set the east coast servers in my basement which is cool for me, but anyone else playing at something like that--a ping that is excellent by any other standard--is probably having a shit of a time trying to fight as infantry. i understand that you can't design a game around people having bad ping, which is totally understandble, but having difficulties at anything over 50ms is a little....asinine, dont you think?

a suggestion i saw from (IIRC) test was that holding a weapon in a certain position should "charge" it, and make it do regular damage. a swing that was instant was, of course, quicker, but did less damage. theres no point in holding a weapon in a certain way, and youre better off feinting a swing. feinting is a great tactic, and i do it frequently. however, i think its a little stupid to ignore inertia completely and swing a massive fucking battle axe like a crack monkey in a different direction in an instant.

id always favor gameplay over realism, and id say that the poor bastards we play as are more athletically fit and strong than your regular joe. but i think weapons simply swing too fast for the amount of damage they put out, even for an above average player. i think the spear, for example, is a very well balanced weapon. its fast as hell (much faster than 98 speed id say) but it does something like 13b per hit. yes, its fast, but the damage is more reasonable, and lends itself towards a player that likes to wear his opponent out instead of a huge cascade of smash hits. on the other hand, a battle axe hits a monster truck, but should, in my opinion, swing slower to compensate instead of this instantaneous-babe-ruth-homerun-swing stuff thats going on now. not sure if any of you gents have ever held a really big axe irl, but they arent exactly light. some axes heads are even made heavy on purpose to give more punch in the swing. i would expect a reasonable swing in game, seeing as our dudes are all soliders and what not, but i still feel its a little crazy how weapons in general have become in regards to speed.

i have a feeling that top end players are going to look at this post like the pope would at satan having intercourse with a statue of jesus and see it as dumbing down the game, but understand im the LAST person that wants to play a dumbed down game. i just think it could be a little better, and that we shouldnt have to drink a red bull in order to play. maybe something like a global 10% swing speed reduction to see how it works for example. thoughts? suggestions? death threats?



TLDR/cliffnotes version: cool story bro
no

Gobblecoque

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 07:04:04 am »
I gather that you wish for weapon swings to be lower, correct? I'm going to have to say no, I think that slower swings would look awkward and I believe that manual blocking should be somewhat unreliable.
There's no other way I can say it. I'm flabbergasted. That kind of sheer idiocy is beyond comprehension for me. I can't understand how anyone can be so phenomenally dumb. I don't think you can achieve that level of stupidity by trying, I think you have to be born that way.


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mouthnhoof

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 09:03:59 am »
...
on the other hand, a battle axe hits a monster truck, but should, in my opinion, swing slower to compensate instead of this instantaneous-babe-ruth-homerun-swing stuff thats going on now. not sure if any of you gents have ever held a really big axe irl, but they arent exactly light. some axes heads are even made heavy on purpose to give more punch in the swing.
...

War axes are not wood axes. The are much lighter and the blade is narrow and sharp instead of the thick wedge of a wood axe.

But in principle I agree. A (small) slowdown could go a long way to dealing with lag and encourage manual blocking. This could come from two sources: one is the swing animation, the other is the time it takes to ready the blow - that is a small delay between pulling the hand back to ready the blow and the beginning of the swing animation. It needs to be very small, just of the order of couple net packet travel time.
Death to the mortals!

Kevlar

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 10:00:36 am »
Only weapon in need of a speed reduction is the bows really, you can basically shoot one off a second.
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Arkanti

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 11:26:21 am »

at home, i enjoy a ping of around 20 on 99% of the days (east coast 4 lyf) and its great. however, a few days ago my internets provider was being terrible, and my ping went up to something like 60-75 or so. still not bad by any standards, and damn good for most everything...except when i fired up warband. i could see the swings and whatnot, but even that 40 ms difference led to me getting rocked by any weapon near me. blocking was quite frankly impossible


I'm tempted to call BS...it's fairly hard but not anywhere near impossible to manual block with 270 ping.

As for your solution, I'd rather not.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 01:12:35 pm by Arkanti »
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Mazgazine1

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 02:29:04 pm »
I think a charge system would work very well. Duels would be much more dynamic. Leaving your self open, but ready to throw a massive swing - the guy moves in for a quick attack - you feint to block his attack and smack him a thrust.. I think its worth trying.


Lord Rich

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 07:14:13 pm »
I agree with slowing things down, some of the weapons are ridiculously fast and blocking is hard enough even with a good ping. I dont like the idea of charging though, it doesnt make sense to me, I dont see how holding a sword over your shoulder longer would have any correlation to the strength of the blow.

A stamina bar wouldnt be too bad however, if each swing takes stamina and as the stamina gets lower so does the swing speed (the bar would regenerate when you are not attacking) then people wouldnt be able to endlessly swing with high speed attacks.

Ragratt

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 10:44:20 pm »
If the game was slowed down the animations would just feel too sluggish.  I think the problem is more with the blocking system than the speed of the game.  Unreliable is one thing, but I'm not convinced anyone besides perhaps a VERY select few are able to truly master the current system.  The blocking is not responsive enough to keep up with the speed of attacks.  This is one reason so many people roll with 2 shields.  In a large fight a player without a shield is toast.  As much as I enjoy manual block over auto, I'd really like see something done to streamline the blocking because its just too awkward.

Darkness

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 10:48:08 pm »
Its skill based combat. No skill means everything will look ridiculously fast. Like CSS (to some degree, although it has ALOT and i mean ALOT of BS and WTF moments). I am bad at both games, but I would still have to disagree and say combat is good as it is. It just takes alot of practice.
There appear to be other Darkness' in game. I hope they don't give me a bad rep :-P

Johnny Morphine

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 01:39:51 am »
If the game was slowed down the animations would just feel too sluggish.  I think the problem is more with the blocking system than the speed of the game.  Unreliable is one thing, but I'm not convinced anyone besides perhaps a VERY select few are able to truly master the current system.  The blocking is not responsive enough to keep up with the speed of attacks.  This is one reason so many people roll with 2 shields.  In a large fight a player without a shield is toast.  As much as I enjoy manual block over auto, I'd really like see something done to streamline the blocking because its just too awkward.


I'm one who agrees with you (at least mostly - which is good enough). There've been a lot of threads on this so I won't go ahead and repeat every idea we've come up with, but allowing a variety of control possibilities for manual blocking would work wonders. Mention the word "unreliable" and you'll have two dozen manual blockers come on and tell you that the current system is perfect and that you're just a noob... but I do agree with this for a number of reasons that've also been posted elsewhere.

Might as well grab the links to those threads while I'm at it:

http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,77468.0.html
http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,76821.0.html

Arkanti

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 09:25:04 am »
How is it unreliable exactly?
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Johnny Morphine

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2009, 11:09:40 am »
How is it unreliable exactly?


Mainly in that it depends on what kind of hardware you're using, as I've outlined in one of those other threads. Some kinds of mice on common surfaces will interpret your general motion 90 degrees in the wrong direction at the start of the movement. Now that I have a decent mouse and a professional mousepad I stopped having that problem for the most part. That's the only real reason.

Otherwise, the current system does stand in conflict with certain types of play styles, as I've also outlined, and this can cause a manual blocker's block direction to be executed erratically. But that's more of a case of someone unwilling (like myself) to reconcile their style of mouse movement (in my case, the fast-paced 1st person Doom style) with the patience and steadiness of hand required to successfully execute a manual block. That's not the game's fault, though I believe that the game should, for the above cases - which I imagine are quite common, seeing that most everyone is failing at manual block for one reason or another - provide alternate options for how to choose your direction for manual blocking.

mouthnhoof

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2009, 11:37:38 am »
If the game was slowed down the animations would just feel too sluggish. 

Not so much slow the animation down, but the time it takes to start the swing - that is, a short delay between winding up the blow and the actual swing. This gives you a split second to detect the swing type and try to respond with a block. The current situation is that often there is no swing at all, so the swing speed doesn't matter - players swing while turning so the swing hits instantly as they release the mouse button. This is why side swings are so more successful than overhead. Currently the most effective attack is against someone at your side, not infront.
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Johnny Morphine

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2009, 11:53:32 am »
Not so much slow the animation down, but the time it takes to start the swing - that is, a short delay between winding up the blow and the actual swing. This gives you a split second to detect the swing type and try to respond with a block. The current situation is that often there is no swing at all, so the swing speed doesn't matter - players swing while turning so the swing hits instantly as they release the mouse button. This is why side swings are so more successful than overhead. Currently the most effective attack is against someone at your side, not infront.


I'm not at all for slowing anything down, but I totally agree with you on this point. It's the artificial rotation that you can put into a sideswing that makes them so much deadlier right now. I think that either your ability to rotate yourself (not your POV) more than a few degrees during a swing should be removed, or just limit the max rotation speed to that of the old single-player game. Seriously, no one should be able to spin around 20 times a second.

Ragratt

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Re: [suggestion] Slow things down a little
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 03:46:20 pm »
If the game was slowed down the animations would just feel too sluggish. 

Not so much slow the animation down, but the time it takes to start the swing - that is, a short delay between winding up the blow and the actual swing. This gives you a split second to detect the swing type and try to respond with a block. The current situation is that often there is no swing at all, so the swing speed doesn't matter - players swing while turning so the swing hits instantly as they release the mouse button. This is why side swings are so more successful than overhead. Currently the most effective attack is against someone at your side, not in front.


This doesn't sound too bad actually.  I would support a small increase in the delay before the swing to help match the lag in the blocking.  As u said, it would also help the problem with people simply turning to get an early hit.  This is already kind of in effect with stab motion on lances and other polearms and it works fine