[Suggestion] Alternative manual block controls

[Seawied86]

There's a lot of talk making all server manual block because manual block enhances gameplay, and so far the only complaint people have against it is that manual block is counter intuitive to new players and may put some people off.

Personally, I agree with both. 


Autoblock waters down a one on one fight so badly, that half the time I just get fed up and pull out a throwing weapon and smack him in the head. However, manual block does not feel intuitive for me, where every other control in the game has been extraordinarily natural. People obviously have adapted to Manual Block quiet well as I see some of the better people on the server can block attack after attack after attack with seemingly great ease. So I boiled down my concerns of manual block to the core reason of why it feels counter-intuitive to me.

Manual block is based on your camera angle.

Personally I like to have a high view overhead view of my character. I use third person mode because first person gives you bad tunnel vision, and in third person mode, having a high view allows me A) Hear enemies location better (I use 5.1 surround sound), B) See people trying to flank me, and C) Admire my old granny hair. The problem with this is that with manual block, this forces me to use the overhead block, even if I'm cognitively trying to do a side block or a thrust block.

As I mentioned earlier, some people seem to have adapted to manual block quiet well, but for me, even after nearly a month of beta testing, manual block still feels clunky and counter-intuitive. I played another beta called Pirates, Viking, and Knights II which had an attack pattern very similar to M&B. However, instead of basing the block pattern on your mouse's X and Y axis, it based it on keyboard directional commands. As an example: to block left you need to strafe right (press d) and hold your right click button. To block right, you strafe left and then hold right click. To block an overhead attack, walk backwards (press "s") and right click. So on and soforth. This still required a lot of skill to master, but it felt very intuitive.

I would like to see an option in the control screen allowing for this kind of manual block mode. This still requires a lot of skill, but would bring the highly attractive intuitive factor to the manual block mode and servers.

Thoughts?

[Harn]

I was thinking along these lines too, I agree and would like to see this happen. It's hard to maneuver in battle and still have sense of mind to stop moving, click for block and choose which block direction in under a second. It would be much nicer to hold the block button and then move your character towards the incoming attack. Sounds like a nice flow of battle to me.

[Seawied86]

I was thinking along these lines too, I agree and would like to see this happen. It's hard to maneuver in battle and still have sense of mind to stop moving, click for block and choose which block direction in under a second. It would be much nicer to hold the block button and then move your character towards the incoming attack. Sounds like a nice flow of battle to me.

harn's idea could also work quiet well.

[mouthnhoof]

I think you got it wrong. Manual blocking works by mouse gesture, not by where you point relative to you enemy - that is not by your camera angle.

Perhaps it depends on your attack direction setup? Mine is alway by "reverse mouse movement".

[Seawied86]

I think you got it wrong. Manual blocking works by mouse gesture, not by where you point relative to you enemy - that is not by your camera angle.

Perhaps it depends on your attack direction setup? Mine is alway by "reverse mouse movement".

I'm aware your enemies location has nothing to do with your block selection. That was not what I was trying to argue. You need to move your mouse and therefor your camera angle to perform a block.

[Booya!]

i really don't see any reason not to add this as an option. we're in beta anyway and if it ends up having some huge advantage over mouse direction then it can always be removed later

edit:speaking of people having trouble getting used to manual block, full release should add a multiplayer section to the tutorial and it should have an attack dummy with difficulty levels to help people get used to the manual blocking system

[Regendur]

This sounds good to me.

[Foamy]

I used to play PVK too but i actually found that i hated their block/attack method after playing M&B. I think that they should give a much more flexible control customisation which would allow people to design their own controls for block/attack direction. you could have controls based on mouse movement or key presses or player movement so everyone could come up with the best solution for them.

[Seawied86]

I used to play PVK too but i actually found that i hated their block/attack method after playing M&B. I think that they should give a much more flexible control customisation which would allow people to design their own controls for block/attack direction. you could have controls based on mouse movement or key presses or player movement so everyone could come up with the best solution for them.

This is exactly why I'm suggesting that this be optional. This way you can block with your mouse and I can block with the keyboard.

[Foamy]

I used to play PVK too but i actually found that i hated their block/attack method after playing M&B. I think that they should give a much more flexible control customisation which would allow people to design their own controls for block/attack direction. you could have controls based on mouse movement or key presses or player movement so everyone could come up with the best solution for them.

This is exactly why I'm suggesting that this be optional. This way you can block with your mouse and I can block with the keyboard.

The thing is that i don't think the current block system is the best for me. I've practiced with it a decent amount and can win at least 50% of the time against an opponent with manual block and similar equipment but it doesn't feel right to me. I know that the PVK system is no good for me so i'l love to get an opportunity to try and come up with my own system but currently there's no way of me testing any of my ideas. That's why i think a flexible control system would be a great addition to M&B.

[Archonsod]

Personally I like to have a high view overhead view of my character. I use third person mode because first person gives you bad tunnel vision, and in third person mode, having a high view allows me A) Hear enemies location better (I use 5.1 surround sound), B) See people trying to flank me, and C) Admire my old granny hair. The problem with this is that with manual block, this forces me to use the overhead block, even if I'm cognitively trying to do a side block or a thrust block.

It's easier in 1st person, but the key is to follow the other guys weapon.

A method used in some games is a compromise between the two and removes the block in favour of having an attack work as a block. Basically, you block by mirroring your opponents attack, so if for example they attack with a right - left slash you can parry with a left - right slash. Not sure how well it would work, and the animations are probably a bitch to get right.

[Johnny Morphine]

I find that my biggest problem with the current manual block system is that I have to jerk my mouse to one side to confirm the block direction, then when I see that I'm no longer facing exactly what I want to be looking at, I instinctively turn back to the opponent before the direction is confirmed, which will always change the block to the wrong direction. It's even worse when you have to keep turning around because you know there's probably some cavalry that could come up behind you any moment.

I like the PVK concept as an option. Something nearly identical to it was brought up on this thread a few days ago:
http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,76821.0.html

On the same thread I added the idea that an option to bind a separate key for each block direction would also be a valid option. It wouldn't work for a lot of people due to their control schemes, though while it would also cause you to think about exactly which key out of four to press in response, it would remove itself from the other variables of your rotation and movement, hence actually adding a higher degree of realism.

i really don't see any reason not to add this as an option. we're in beta anyway and if it ends up having some huge advantage over mouse direction then it can always be removed later

As long as a blocking option remains manual (i.e. forcing the player to respond with the correct choice of four options in a split second to every incoming attack), none of the aforementioned options would give any player a distinct advantage over someone using the opposing manual systems. It comes down to control preference, not which system is inherently better or easier to use. So no worries there.

And to preempt any disagreements to the previous statement, have you ever seen anyone crying because they lost a couple rounds of Street Fighter 4 because they had a joystick and not a fight pad; or because they spilled their beer because they had a can and not a bottle? Probably not.

[SteveO]

I agree with this.  I'd much rather move my character around than have my camera flying all over the place trying to get the proper mouse combo to block with.  And I usually like to play with a high sensitivity to adapt to the current spinning nature of combat as it currently is, and that makes it even worse. 

[Trelin]

I think M&B's directional attack/block system is superior to these other games.  I find it entirely intuitive.  However, I do have to agree that sometimes I block in the wrong direction because I am trying to control the camera and/or circle strafe - but that's just bad habits I need to get rid of.  But it really comes down to practicing in a safe environment, try the tutorial even, where you can afford to fail a few blocks without instantly dying and having to wait 5 minutes for the round to end.  Multiplayer battle is very frantic and isn't good for practicing the fundamentals.

I'm not saying your idea is bad, I'm just saying that just because you're practicing manual block doesn't mean you are getting good practice.

I think the root of the problem is the camera, not the combat system.  Other games where directional attack/block had fixed cameras, in my experience.  That could be part of the reason why they felt a bit more natural.

[Seawied86]

Personally I like to have a high view overhead view of my character. I use third person mode because first person gives you bad tunnel vision, and in third person mode, having a high view allows me A) Hear enemies location better (I use 5.1 surround sound), B) See people trying to flank me, and C) Admire my old granny hair. The problem with this is that with manual block, this forces me to use the overhead block, even if I'm cognitively trying to do a side block or a thrust block.

It's easier in 1st person, but the key is to follow the other guys weapon.

A method used in some games is a compromise between the two and removes the block in favour of having an attack work as a block. Basically, you block by mirroring your opponents attack, so if for example they attack with a right - left slash you can parry with a left - right slash. Not sure how well it would work, and the animations are probably a bitch to get right.

Interesting idea. Only problem though is that this would radically change the flow of the game right now. It also might translate to just swinging wildly