Historical Scandinavians - Revised Units Mini Mod ( v. 0.96 )

[Skandinav]

Good day,

In regards to a few of the last posts in the suggestions thread concerning the unhistorical Northmen of 1257ed ( http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,55448.90.html ), this is the result of me fiddling with the Troop Editor and a few books - I thought I would share with the community what I've made so that if you would have the need, you might save yourselves the time and effort - and hopefully also include you in some of the decision making by drawing on some of your knowledge and rationale.
This is for those of you who desire historical representation of the Nordic kingdoms, anno 1257.

I've strived to mix both Danish, Swedish and Norwegian equipment of the day ( mostly southern Scandinavian though ), without changing the Baltic setting ( meaning the Northmen are a crusading faction ), and I've done the best I could with what I had of items already in the mod.
Fortunately this is almost perfectly achievable, as 1257 has most of the items spoken of by the sources.

This means no more viking-age equipment - but all Nordic units and lords outfitted to the standards of medieval Scandinavian crusaders.

All changes are based on primary sources where available ( like Jyskelov, Kongespejlet, Saxo Grammaticus´ Gesta Danorum, Magnus Lagabøtes landslov, dif. church panels and so on ), and otherwise sound secondary sources, PM me if you want a full list, these are mostly in danish and otherwise different Osprey books ( mostly "The Scandinavian Baltic Crusades 1100-1500" and "Medieval Scandinavian Armies 1100-1300" ).


Changelog : 

(click to show/hide)

( Please be aware that each new version requires a new game for the changes to have effect )                   


( 0.8 )
- Historical arms and armor for all Nordic units

- Historical arms and armor for all Nordic lords,  including crown pretender, Nordic lords have also been raised in their riding stats to supplement their new status as mounted feudal lords

- A few unit name changes, ie. Huscarls to Sergeants, Archers to Crossbowmen

- Changed the second-tier of the archer branch to the armored crossbowmen of the period

- Minor changes to some of the equipment of followers

( 0.81 )
- Added some missing foot-wear

( 0.82 )
- Added and changed the equipment of a few lords

- Removed blue hoses from infantry

( 0.83 )
- Changed some armors for top-tier troops

- Added some helmets to warriors and crossbowmen

( 0.84 )
- Added some nasal-guard helmets of the norman type to better represent the Swedish crusaders

( 0.85 )
- Revised all Nordic lords; alot of changes made, a few errors corrected

- Changed some of the norman helmets added in 0.84 due to clipping issues with beards

( 0.86 )
- Removed leather armor from footmen to better balance these in regards to their equivalents from the other factions

( 0.87 )
- Sea Raider equipment tweaked

- Some small changes made to infantry and cavalry

( 0.90 )
- Unit names changed to medieval Danish army terms, Recruits to Bevæbnede bønder, Footmen to Militsmænd, Trained Footmen to Ledingsmænd, Warriors to Svende, Riders to Knægte, Sergeants to Styrismænd, Huntsmen to Skytter, Armored Crossbowmen to Armbrøstskytter, Hirdmen to Herremænd ( a later evolution of the hirdmen, from the time when Denmark was becoming increasingly feudalized ), Prison Guard to Tugtemester and Castle Guard to Vagtmester.
Scandinavian vowels are not allowed in the build, so I have written these with the usual equivalents, ie. æ as ae, ø as oe.

- Red sur-coats added to Svende, Knægte, Herremænd

- Historical titles for Nordic lords, primarily Høvedsmænd, a contemporary danish title for a feudal lord, and also a Marsk ( highest military leader ), and a Drost ( a kind of High Chancellor )

- Bows replaced by crossbows for Herremænd.

- A few crossbows for Northmen Deserters

- Lady Isolla of Suno, the Northmen Crown Pretender, renamed to Margrethe Sprænghest; a historical queen of the years of the mod appropriately involved on one side of the Danish civil war ( over the crown ).
 
- Wrapping boots removed from Styrismænd as, usually, these professional soldiers didn't use such low-status equipment - wrapping boots can still be found on lesser infantry

- Styrismænd equipped with crossbows as specifically mentioned by King Valdemar in Jyskelov

( 0.91 )
- Corrected some unit names in plural, this small update is save-game compatible

( 0.92 )
- The units Militsmænd are now called the much older word Vægtere; 13th century city guards and gate keepers

- Removed the color green from all sur-coats, horses, and shirts under hauberks due to green being very unpopular in Northern- and Western Europe in the Middle-Ages, this also makes the Northmen units more uniform

- More kettle-hats for Herremænd and Høvedsmænd, changed the type of kettle-hats for Styrismænd

- Smartened Skytter up a bit

( 0.96 )
- Removed all iron greaves and gauntlets from Kong Ragnar, lords and Herremænd as those used historically at this point in time are not of the type provided by M&B, so better to be completely without than have wrong ones

- Removed light crossbow from Herremænd which was put there by mistake, crossbow and heavy crossbow added instead

- Renamed King Ragnar to Kong Ragnar ( danish for "king" )

- Added some mail mittens to lords who had none

- Added mail coifs to lords, Herremænd, Knægte, Svende, as a few contemporary depictions exist of scandinavians fighting with only this for head-protection

- Removed ( colored ) barded warhorses from Herremænd and added them exclusively to lords ( now these will stand out much more on the battlefield and it gets rid of the odd color mismatch that could occur between knights and their mounts when the game chose colors randomly )

- Added hunters to Herremænd

- New swords, light crossbows and spiked clubs for Vægtere ( historically they were known for their spiked clubs )

- Added mail shirts for ledingsmænd ( as according to Magnus Lagabøte's Landslov )

- Removed tourquis-ish blue mail shirt from Ledingsmænd and Armbrøstskytter due to the eastern look of this color and its wide use by the Rhodok and Vaegir Rus

- All nordic lords have been given heraldic shields again

- Changed kettle helmets of Vægtere to leather strapped kettle hats and helmets with nasal guard, which is much more appropriate without the expensive mail coifs that came with the first, and also happens to go better with their clothes

- Added some new heater shields to all infantry

- Added some shortened kite shields to cavalry

- Revised shields on all units, removed any eatern looking heraldry

- Revised helmets on Ledingsmænd and Svende

- Added crossbows to Knægte

- Corrected the use of plated mail for knights and lords as per RCM

- All units looked through and thoroughly tested, lots of minor changes done that I have not listed

Some notes on the changes and the historicity hereof :
Concerning the armored crossbowmen, Armbrøstskytter, I would have liked very much a third-tier of archers resembling these but only with warbows. But combining the two would really be inappropriate as usually archers weren't this well-armored. My choice has been taken only after much consideration, the main argument in doing so being the favour scandinavians bestowed upon the crossbow in this part of the Middle-Ages, and the increase herein in the very years of this mod.
Historically Scandinavian archers and crossbowmen didn't really form distinctive regiments or grouped in certain formations, and they would as such be best represented in this mod by handing some bows and crossbows to otherwise melee-based infantry. And as it was decreed ( by the king ) as an important part of their equipment I have equipped Styrismænd with crossbows. But given the archer branch already in the mod, I have chosen to keep the two kinds of archers as seperate units; you might then mix them as you please to the effect of the their historical organization.
Unit names and lord titles are in danish, as danish were the most spoken language among the scandinavian crusaders.

This is a beta, so feel very free to post constructive criticism.
I would especially be interested in hearing proposals for different unit names and lord titles.
I am also very open to the possibility of giving Armbrøstskytter some bows in an updated version, if somehow a better solution could be found.


Download Links ( v. 0.96 ) :
http://rapidshare.com/files/331893909/1257AD_Historical_Scandinavians_0.96.rar.html
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=QH3VZPN2

Installation Instructions :
Simply unrar the troops.txt into your Mount&Blade\Modules\1257 AD folder. Overwrite when prompted.

NOT save-game compatible. It wont destroy anything in your old save-games though, and while certainly not all, some changes might be included.

NOTICE : I use RCM and have tweaked these files with the mod applied, but I guess most of you already have RCM installed and therefore shant have any problems. Otherwise I must recommend installing RCM. You can find the 1257 compatible version here : http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,64170.0.html


Pictures :

Units ( with unit names, only two of each, appearance vary ) :

(click to show/hide)

Some random pictures ( note that these pictures are from 0.92, some small changes have since been made, haven't found the time to take new ones ) :

(click to show/hide)

Accurate illustrations of medieval Scandinavian soldiers ( for those who may never have seen what these could have looked like, source : "The Scandinavian Baltic Crusades 1100-1500" and "Medieval Scandinavian Armies 1100-1300", Osprey Publishing ) :

(click to show/hide)

A picture of a danish Styrismand reenactor ( armed and armored according to Jyskelov, source of picture : http://styresmand.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html ) :

(click to show/hide)

[fragonard]

I'm surprised at the lack of comments. I tried this mod out last night and really like what you've done. I haven't had a chance to see all the changes but So far so good.  Bunduk's new outfit is great, BTW; I'm definitely going to continue. Thanks.

[Skandinav]

I am glad you like it, thank you for taking the time to tell me.

Please remember to use the newest version - I am sorry that you have to start anew - hopefully the amount of future updates will be limited.

Regards,

[RAD_X]

Hi Skandinav, could you post some screenshots of what revised troops look like. Would be great if you could do the before/after comparison. I'm not asking for a ton of them, maybe 4-5

[Perdikas]

Would you make a compatible version with Jean Plassy's RCM for 1257?

[Skandinav]

Hi Skandinav, could you post some screenshots of what revised troops look like. Would be great if you could do the before/after comparison. I'm not asking for a ton of them, maybe 4-5

Good day RAD_X, of course I will, I had planned to upload a few as soon as I had some decent ones.

Would you make a compatible version with Jean Plassy's RCM for 1257?

I already did mate 

NOTICE : I use RCM and have tweaked these files with the mod applied, but I guess most of you already have RCM installed and therefore shant have any problems. Otherwise I must recommend installing RCM. You can find it here : http://forums.taleworlds.net/index.php/topic,64170.0.html

Regards,

[RAD_X]

Hi Skandinav, could you post some screenshots of what revised troops look like. Would be great if you could do the before/after comparison. I'm not asking for a ton of them, maybe 4-5

Good day RAD_X, of course I will, I had planned to upload a few as soon as I had some decent ones.

Thanks, i'll try to check out your troop-tweaks today. The truth is i haven't played for or against nords in 1257 ed. so i'll have to try the standard 1257 ed. Nords first:)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, an update. Took group pictures of tweaked Northern army 

(click to show/hide)

3 of each troop

1 of each troop

[Skandinav]

Thanks for that RAD_X.
Please just remember that there is quite a few different armors and weapons per unit, some have about two, others up to six or even more.

[RAD_X]

Thanks for that RAD_X.
Please just remember that each unit has more than one appearance, ie. quite a few different armors and weapons per unit, between four and six in general.

No problem. Yeah i know that appearance differs, i just did the pictures very fast and it's hard to capture a large number of troops, it gets too crowded.

[Dogukan]

is this in final feudal edition? If not, is it compatible?

[Skandinav]

Opening post updated - new version with a lot of changes and pictures.

is this in final feudal edition? If not, is it compatible?

This isn't in the Feudal Edition I'm afraid, nor is it compatible.

I have no future plans making it compatible either; as however high quality Latinikon's work is, the goals of our mini mods differ substantially; whereas his is style and flavour - as far as I can tell - my aim with this is historical accuracy above everything else.

Have a good day

[Discotheque]

Will download tonight and give it a try. Have you talked to Spanky about proofing this for inclusion in 1257 Edition? You're both motivated by historical accuracy.

[Jean Plassy]

@Discotheque and Skandinav,

If I'm not mistaken, to preserve flavour, Spanky deliberately made his Northmen anachronistic. If you read the old discussions, previews and such, you'll know that he mentions the Norse Army in the original 1257 AD was specifically modeled upon an XI century state of art, and not the real 1257 one. In 1257, if anything and as this add-on shows (though I would not trust the Osprey about Medieval Scandinavian Armies!), the "Norse" armies would resemble a lot the Swadian Army, more so than their previous "Viking" one.

Though great add-on, as always!

[Skandinav]

Will download tonight and give it a try. Have you talked to Spanky about proofing this for inclusion in 1257 Edition? You're both motivated by historical accuracy.

@Discotheque and Skandinav,

If I'm not mistaken, to preserve flavour, Spanky deliberately made his Northmen anachronistic. If you read the old discussions, previews and such, you'll know that he mentions the Norse Army in the original 1257 AD was specifically modeled upon an XI century state of art, and not the real 1257 one. In 1257, if anything and as this add-on shows (though I would not trust the Osprey about Medieval Scandinavian Armies!), the "Norse" armies would resemble a lot the Swadian Army, more so than their previous "Viking" one.

Though great add-on, as always!

Indeed, the northmen are deliberately more viking-ish than history would dictate ( but actually all the factions or most units are a bit behind in terms of armament, about a century or half a century, but not as much as the Northmen, the Rhodok Commonwealth or Vaegir Rus are good examples ), as I have also qouted from Spanky in my post to Aule the Creator in the Suggestions Thread ( which inspired me to make these changes as explained in the OP ) :

"The Northmen here, as I'm sure you've noticed, are a little bit behind in terms of equipment. This is based in history, but here it is exaggerated. They are about at the level of the Normans of 1100, who didn't yet wear surcoats. They also aren't fully christianized." - Spanky

The resemblance and differences between the Northmen and Swadian Order, or rather Scandinavian and German armies, are rather small which is also why the choice of 12th century ( though some of these were 11th and even 10th century ) scandinavians are viable to add flavour ( and most of us love vikings ).
But the differences are still distinct enough to seperate Scandinavia from the rest of Europe at the time, which is why scandinavian armies aren't just german armies with scandinavian soldiers. Differences consist mainly of the remnants of Viking-Age or early Scandinavian Middle-Age equipment in use by Denmark, Norway and Sweden ( norman helmets, round shields and daneaxes are just three examples which spring to mind ), but also in certain pieces of armor and weaponry more popular and common among the soldiers in the three countries than among their european peers from abroad ( wide use of kettlehelmets and crossbows for almost all tiers of both infantry and cavalry ). The fact that northern Scandinavia ( and southern to a certain extent and point in time ) were in the outskirts of Europe, and therefore a bit behind in terms of armament also played a role ( round-topped kite shields being used in the 13th and even into the 14th century by knights and squires in Norway, though the guess is they were rare ), but also important were the rugged terrain of these regions ( regrettably beyond M&B but ski-equipped troops were widely used in the northern parts, for example ), which led to a much more ground-based warrior nobility than seen elsewhere ( in Europe ) at the time.
A warrior nobility which also included men of the clergy ( primarily bishops ) is also a somewhat distinct Scandinavian trait ( of course exceptions exist ), as is the lack of an actual feudal system ( in the common sense ) in Norway and Sweden. Add to this many differences in tactics, and organization and recruitment of troops ( leding and the evolution hereof ).
Luckily the Swadian Order in 1257ed is a crusading Order garbed in the Order color-scheme ( white primarily ), and with the crossed heather shields of their Order. Therefore the one-colored tunics in primary colors worn by the scandinavians aswell as their multitude of - older aswell as newer - shield-designs and heraldry in the northern style and weapons and armor as mentioned above do make the Northmen stand out from their german counterparts in 1257ed, if not much - but historically so. But that these differences are not as great as the differences between the other factions are granted, but they really represented much the same force of invaders/crusaders in the area ( Baltic ), and were often, officially, seen as near allies ( though rivals at times ).

Concerning the use of Osprey books I must stress that the enormous body of Osprey books are published in different and varying quality, and that these are sometimes suspectible of mistrust are due to the format of the books more than the actual content. The format being a short and brief overview, and with the perspective of military historians with a clear weight on military history. Usually, in matters such as this; hard data on weapons technology, they are quite valid.
But of course the usual source critique is necessary, and no one should rely on them solely.
The two books I have used here are good examples of decent Osprey books, and please bear in mind that none of the facts presented here have been disputed for a very long time ( although a ph.d sometimes makes a case for something minor in the usual interpretation of the contemporary sources, they are usually musings, and the data I have adhered to here remains unchanged ).
I have also not been as unmindful as not to use primary sources first and foremost ( and the ones I've used are the most important, among the few we have ), then updated danish sources ( as also explained in the OP ) and then the Osprey books ( which mostly are based on the same primary sources ).
That said, I thought it a good idea to post some of the Osprey illustrations, which is one of Osprey Publishing's strengths, to grant an overview for those who would feel a need - this does not mean that they were in any way central to the appearance of the revised Northmen.

Thanks for the approval though, Jean Plassy, and I hope you will have fun Discotheque, I must recommend the Baltic Map for more immersion.

[Discotheque]

Hmm... I had read Spanky's explanation, but it seemed internally inconsistent to a degree. Imagine, modding an ostensibly historical mod to be more historical.

Nice work btw, from what I've seen so far. It hasn't really detracted from the flavour in my opinion. It makes the overall setting feel more consistent, less like 5 disparate factions. Whenever NPCs used to claim that they came from some place, and that whole races had settled in new lands and assimilated into hostile societies I was like, "You what?" At least now you can see the flow of technology and ideas between Nord and Swadian. Good stuff, I'll have to poke around the Northlands some more until I see everything.

Just checked out Baltic Map, I think it's going to be my next install.

Edit: Hmm... Baltic Map doesn't do it for me. It doesn't have the level of polish the 1257 map does. Plus the native map's layout of the five factions is really conducive to interesting gameplay. In my current game (about 50 days in) it seems every single faction is at war with Swadia, hilariously. They only have Praven and Dhirim left.