Mercenary Guild Discussion (new screens on page 5)

MorrisB said:

Anyway... say Cyclohexane, did you receive my PM (I was asking about what troops are the Conquistadors going to have, so I could write descriptions for them) ?

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Here are some ideas I'd like to try.  I have some of the harder equipment for these troops already made (i.e. the unique helmets) from the OSP project. 

Swordsman
Similar to regular mercenary swordsmen but with different equipment.  Can upgrade to Rodeleros.

Rodeleros
These guys will have fast athletic ability and high shield skill.  They use bucklers (small fast shields) that are effective up close (not so much against archers) and fairly light armor (chest plate and helmets) for getting in close for the kill.  They also use short swords (quick units meant to close ground and get up close and personal).  Decent power strike and overall balanced unit for the open field (in sieges their low armor and small shields will not be so useful).


Pikemen
Your basic pikeman wielding a 2-handed polearm.  Mid-tier level.  Can upgrade to Tercio Pikemen.

Tercio Pikemen
Elite pikmen equivalent to the Rhodok sergeants with different gear and more prone to athletics and power strike than armor. 

Lancer
The elite unit that you must have high relations with is the Lancer.  Decent armor, lance, charger, etc.  Your basic knight

I’d also like to see a line of crossbow units starting weak to mid tier (mid level but use heavy and siege crossbows with decent helms, armor, and short swords).  Their uniforms will be the same but this will give this guild a fairly balanced army.  Perhaps we can make this guild have its own castle (or small wood type fort) on the coast (next to a shipwrecked galleon).  The only reason they are a guild and not formidable army is their numbers are low (explorers shipwrecked in Caldria looking for treasure…)

Perhaps their guild leader can function as sort of a lord (unkillable with sweet equipment and skills) with an army that can be hired... 

Kuba said:

Coding is almost done. I have already made hiring dialogs for player, hiring system for AI lords and something special...
advanced lord titling system! The titles are divided in two groups:

1. Titles by function: King, Marshall.

2. Titles by fiefs: Knight, Baron, Viscount, Count, Margrave, Duke, Infante, Prince.

Here are some screen shots:

Spoiler

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That’s sweet man.  Great work.  I just corrected a major bug I was experiencing (had to do with the UAC in Vista) and I can get back to work now.  I just figured out how to add face paint to my tribsmen and I am texturing some skin paint now.  I got a lot of work still with new shields and new weapons.  Unfortunately, I will not be able to work as fast as you guys but I can guarantee some top notch units. 

What about flamberg/zweihander mercenaries in the Swiss/German style?

@Cyclohexane: I could also imagine them having "mobile artillery", the problem is we can't force the AI to actually dismount mounted archers (at least I don't know of such a method). As for the rest, not quite the most original guild save for the Lancer (cavalry with spears was always a bit overlooked in MnB, it was really about time to star them in greater roles) and the Rodeleros are a nice twist as well (bucklers + high Shield skill will be interesting... ). I wouldn't give the Lancer a Charger-style mount, though, but rather a mix between the Hunter and Courser (high health, speed and mobility, good trample damage, but only moderate armor). It could be just me, though.

And I agree that the guilds could have 1-5 "Lords" on their own, it would be more realistic to actually have key figures leading the gang (a company master who has the most units, and a few captains who command various warbands or certain army branches)

Now that I have the necessary info, I'll get right to writing the texts for the Conquistadors. You may expect the fully-done texts within two weeks (or less)

On a different note: I have one more unit idea to add to my "list of original unit ideas". Which is:

Charger Cavalry (cavalry which has VERY high trample damage value, horse armor and HP, but the riders themselves are not quite that good)

I even tested my idea via the Troop Editor, and so to say, it worked out nicely. Infantry have small chance when Charging Cavalry are employed in greater numbers and led over their ranks over and over again ("Everyone, follow me !" -> charge trough enemy formations, take a turn, and ride over them again, and again, and again...). But they are bad at dealing with other riders who can easily outmanouver and backstab them. Overall Charger Cavalry are good, but not overpowered if you know how to counter them (if they are actually stopped, they don't survive for long, but if not, then you can be screwed).

@mouthandhoof: That could work as well. The possibilities are limitless, BUT, just because of this, we must decide WHAT is worth becoming a major guild (for the time being).

I tried the mounted heavy crossbows (aka mobile artillery). I remembered it to work, but there is a twist to it:
Sometimes the unit will try to start the heavy crossbow, which it can't use, and not switch to its melee weapon. The workaround is to explicitly tell them to hold fire and they will switch to melee and fight from horseback. When they dismount you can order "fire at will" and they will shoot. A little bit of over-management for my taste. The other twist is that even if you tell them to switch to melee, they still seem to keep their horse archer AI, so they don't charge in. They do however attack stragglers, so it is weird but not too bad.

Conclusion: it could be done, but is too annoying to be practical.

Seems to me what is really required is the ability to explicitly set the appropriate "AI melee behavior" for units.

Currently, the game attempts to deduce their function (AI behavior) by what weapon and if a horse is guaranteed).  But that's a flimsy way to get what should be an explicit setting, so that more flexibility is achieved - such as the horse archers, javelineers, etc.

Only time will tell what is in the new M&B engine, and whether such a thing will be possible.

So "Mobile Artillery", at least for the time being, is probably dumped. They could still act as a one-of-a-kind mercenary unit which the player could find randomly in Taverns that's just a possibility, though.

Btw, a strange idea came to mind. Did anyone ever attempt to make a troop type armed randomly with crossbows AND bows (so they receive these ranged weapons randomly) ? I know this wouldn't make much sense, just wondering.

why wouldn't it make sense?  in a world with no factories or assembly lines, you couldn't expect ever band of mercenaries to each be armed with the same weapons, could you?

Weeell... in reality, mercenary gangs usually preferred one over the other, so the ranged troops could fire volleys together more easily. Or even if they had both weapon types, bowmen and crossbowmen were at least in separate groups, not mixed, as that would have had made them less organized.

On the other hand, mixed ranged weaponry at the same troop type is fully possible in MnB, I'm just not sure actually how useful they could be... guess I'll make a test for this soon as well.

EDIT: I tested it. If you don't mind the completely random proportion between bows and crossbows and spend some time balancing the stats, troops with "mixed" ranged weapons are pretty neat and fun to play with One of the guilds could have such a unit.

I've finished a big chunk of the texts for the Conquistadors (the Spanish-like mercenaries of Cyclohexane ). While I sent them via PM to Cyclohexane, I also think I'll show them off for public discussion:


I tried my best to make the texts as fitting to Cyclohexane's original ideas as possible. Hope you guys like them.

MorrisB said:

I've finished a big chunk of the texts for the Conquistadors (the Spanish-like mercenaries of Cyclohexane ). While I sent them via PM to Cyclohexane, I also think I'll show them off for public discussion:

Spoiler

(WELCOME TEXT)
Welcome, fellow fighter. Is there anything you want to discuss with me ?
WHO ARE YOU ?
I am Don Horan, known as the Grand General of the Conquistadors. I run this branch of sell-swords, so if you are considering a long-term deal, or require massive support from us hastily, I'm the one you seek.
TELL ME ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE CONQUISTADORS.
You may not believe me at first, but I'm telling you the truth: my folk are not from Calradia, but from a distant continent. Before settling here, I was Captain of the XIII. Regiment of His Majesty, King Calveraz of the Kingdom of Spana. As our homeland was getting rather crowded and poor, the king sent us to discover new lands to colonize. Alas, we were caught in a massive storm as we were sailing, and my ship was seperated from the rest of the fleet, eventually wrecking not far from this coast. After pulling ourselves together and getting more knowledge of this land, I realized my men became fond of this place. I can understand them, for many of them joined this expedition to escape from poverty and the strict social order of Spana, and so they had little, if any, homesickness. As I'm a leader who cares of his men, I agreed to stay here, at least for the time being. We built this coastal fortress as our base of operations and are acting as a mercenary force for whoever offers the most coins for a job.
WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT THE CONQUISTADORS ?
The specialty of the Conquistadors is discipline and mobility above all else. Well-rounded infantry provides the backbone of the company, supported by crossbowmen, and lancers acting as a small but elite cavalry force. We may not have the thickest armor or greatest manpower in the land, but I can assure you, my men are some of the most trained troops you can find, and our weapons are top quality as well.
TELL ME MORE ABOUT THE GUILD TROOPS, THE...
SWORDSMEN / RODELEROS.
Swordsmen are medium infantry, with a good balance of speed, armor and attack strength. With bucklers, chest plates, strong helmets and finely-forged blades, they excel in close combat, though they need to look our for ranged attackers. When they are considered experienced enough, they may be promoted to elite Rodeleros soldiers, who mastered this form of fighting.
PIKEMEN / TERCIO PIKEMEN.
We rely on Pikemen to counter enemy riders. Unlike most polearm-wielding soldiers, our Pikemen don't use shields due to the sheer weight of their powerful pikes, but what they lack in defense they make up in damage. After proving their skills in several battles, they can rise to the rank of Tercio Pikemen, who are given further training and even stronger weaponry.
MARKSMEN / ARBALESTERS.
Marksmen provide our company ranged support with their crossbows. They are usually less trained in comparison to our other troops, but surpass most other crossbowmen in matters of equipment. The best marksmen can attain the rank of Arbalesters and wield the best crossbows avaible in entire Calradia. Seriously, you should try those fine crafts...
LANCERS.
Our company has a very small cavalry force, but you'd make a grave mistake if you consider them inferior. With long polearms, they can hit enemies long before they could react, and are equal in skill to any knight in Calradia. However, since our horses are a unique breed and considerably few men in the company are trained in mounted combat, I rarely let them be fielded, except if I know our partner is reliable.
I WANT TO ASSIGN YOU WITH A TASK...
(Assignment text goes here)

I tried my best to make the texts as fitting to Cyclohexane's original ideas as possible. Hope you guys like them.

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I just replied to your PM with my comments.  You did an excellent job.  Now onto the elephant guard...

I just replied your answering PM.

I'll check your re-written version, and after that, begin the work on your beloved half-naked anti-greenpeace activists

One more idea for the "original units list":

- "Support" troops (troops who passively raise certain Player skills while in the army - Strategists who give Tactics bonus depending on their number, etc.)

While I can't really test this with the Troop Editor, I've heard that WWII: China Battlefield mod has such a boost system. Of course, such units would have to be pretty expensive to maintain, as their presence could mean big differences between victory and defeat...

OK,
I have been spending a ton of time making some truly unique units.  I decided to go ahead and release a few screenshots but I am far from being finished.  I still have more face paint to complete, more armors to make, and more units.  It will be awhile before done but these units give you an idea what I am adding.  MorrisB has been doing a lot of work on the dialogs and Kuba has been writing the scripts to add mercenary guilds into the game.  This particular guild will function more as a tribe, or mini civilization, but will have the ability to be hired out.  I've done a little play testing and find them very fun but they have been difficult to balance (either to weak or to strong).  Keep in mind, this is my draft, I am still working but wanted to show you guys what I have been up to.  I may still change unit names as well (i.e. hunter versus spearman, etc.) Enjoy:


Elephant Guard Guild Master


Elephant Guard Tribesman


Elephant Guard Spearman


Elephant Guard Elite Spearman


Yes you can add face paint to your character but I have only done this for African faces.  I may add more in the future...

Could you make an ultimate allround mercenary as well? More or less like the khergit lancer, but then a possibity for horse, crossbow, bow, spear, twohander, onehanded with shield and throwing. So that this unit would basically become every unit in one.

NinjaKiwi said:

Could you make an ultimate allround mercenary as well? More or less like the khergit lancer, but then a possibity for horse, crossbow, bow, spear, twohander, onehanded with shield and throwing. So that this unit would basically become every unit in one.

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Sorry but no.  I do not want to make unbalanced units.  I do intend to make many new unit types (for example, notice the length of that spear, it is a new throwing weapon, not just another javilin), but I am against having one unit do everything.  I like a challenge and balanced armies. 

Hi Cyclohexane, I'm back

I've taken a look at the pictures. Mostly cool, but I'd like to share my criticism if you don't mind:

- The High Priestess (the guild master - or mistress ) look really charming with that hair style and the jewelry, but could have a short or mid-length skirt and some more paint over her belly, arms and face. It would give her a more mysterious and respectful appearance instead of a slightly "slutty" one IMO.
- You should reconsider the paint colors and how much part of the body they cover. For example, the Tribesmen look pretty cool with their mask-like face paints and elephant symbol on their chests, but the Spearmen rather reminded me of a football fan club for some reason, that bright yellow color all over their arms, necks and faces just doesn't seem right for me... not to mention the white-red lines at their elbows remind me of armbands... the basic ideas and color themes are good, but you should experiment with different color shadings and their positions on the body, while for the face itself, you should stick with mask-like paints or use "lines", like native Americans indians.
- The gear of the Elite Spearmen might not be the best choice. They pretty much ruin the feeling of leading half-civilized wildmen to battle. Okay, surely the high tier units could use some sorts of crude armor, but I'd prefer if there could be a way to keep the cool war paintings visible. If there is no such a way, I can make peace with those leather armors (they look cool, just not fitting), but the pointy helmets just look stupid on them.
- I wouldn't mind if the EG shields would have some basic heraldry (scary faces, elephant tusk paintings, etc.)

I appreciate your efforts so far and I'm well aware that modeling, texturing and the rest are indeed hard and time-consuming jobs, especially when you actually wish to make something as creative as war paints. As such, I'm sorry if my criticism offended you in any way. Nevertheless, believe that honest feedback can benefit any modder.

Thanks for the feedback but I disagree with you on most points. 

MorrisB said:

- The High Priestess (the guild master - or mistress ) look really charming with that hair style and the jewelry, but could have a short or mid-length skirt and some more paint over her belly, arms and face. It would give her a more mysterious and respectful appearance instead of a slightly "slutty" one IMO.

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I may think about it, but I like it.  I did plan to work some more on it but really just more jewelry.  It's based on wealthy Egyptian women outfit and considering how many more units and guilds to work on, it is unlikely I will look for a different model that has a skirt (the skin is actually a texture to match the face, there are no necklace slots available so to add jewlery, so I also have to change skin tone).  I am not going to create a new race to add war paint (male with war paint, male, female, female with war paint) and then subraces with different paint.  I just made bodies into items you can wear to cover old skin. 

- You should reconsider the paint colors and how much part of the body they cover. For example, the Tribesmen look pretty cool with their mask-like face paints and elephant symbol on their chests, but the Spearmen rather reminded me of a football fan club for some reason, that bright yellow color all over their arms, necks and faces just doesn't seem right for me... not to mention the white-red lines at their elbows remind me of armbands... the basic ideas and color themes are good, but you should experiment with different color shadings and their positions on the body, while for the face itself, you should stick with mask-like paints or use "lines", like native Americans indians.

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The face paints are based on African tribesmen face paint designs I found on Google.  The styles are all based on actual tribe face paint but I did change the color scheme so all melee is red, all ranged is yellow.  I love the crazy yellow look and especially love how it looks in game.  Even the armbands match the new spears I made (also decorated).  If you do not like African style warriors, fair enough, but I’m sticking to the theme and these are based on actual tribes (granted not one tribe but many).  This actually adds some more background to them by having a few remaining tribes uniting after being refugees for years to form a mercenary guild lead by the elephant guard elites and their warrior princess.  So you get a mix on the battlefield of tribesmen and their nobles. 

Something tells me you do not know any football fan club fanatics that wear war paint to games.  Man, those guys would be lethal in M&B.  I was not going after the Native American look, it is the African tribesman look which is way more extravagant.  I am considering adding more face paints later so your main character can choose from many different styles, but not for these units.  Remember, not only is this draft (just added another variation yellow “armor”), the pictures are compressed jpegs, not actual game footage. 

- The gear of the Elite Spearmen might not be the best choice. They pretty much ruin the feeling of leading half-civilized wildmen to battle. Okay, surely the high tier units could use some sorts of crude armor, but I'd prefer if there could be a way to keep the cool war paintings visible. If there is no such a way, I can make peace with those leather armors (they look cool, just not fitting), but the pointy helmets just look stupid on them.
- I wouldn't mind if the EG shields would have some basic heraldry (scary faces, elephant tusk paintings, etc.)

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The pointy helmets do not look stupid, they are elephant shaped.  We just have a completely different style in taste.  The pointy helmets are actually the inspiration of this civilization.  I found them on OSP project and built a civ around it.  I have another version with elephant tusks.  It looks really sweet and  I’m sticking it on the tribal chief.  Wait to see it in game and not a screenshot.  They really look cool up close to.  They are supposed to look elite and stand apart from all the tribesmen.  This helmets color scheme was matched to other items (gloves, boots, armors) .  The decorated leather will add a lot of background to them as well (Guild dialog). 

It is not possible to use the armors and the skin simultaneously (either make new race  or make skin into an item).  The war paint skin is an armor.  I treated it as an item (0 abundance, no merchandise so they will never show up in player inventory) and textured different versions.  Since the alpha channel transparency affects shininess in game, I will either have very shiny skin on those parts hanging out of armor, or the armor will not shine correctly (also due to the type shaders available in brf editer).  To make bone type armors would be cool but without making new models, it would look really bad textured on.  That is out of the question for me, I’m way to busy and I do not design 3-D models (would require rigging which is above my skill level).  I can do basics but too much of a learning curve to finish it any time soon.  I intend to finish 3 completely original guilds for next version. 

Besides all that, I love how this new mini-civilization looks.  They are a blend of Egyptian and African found only in the land of Calradia and I have not shown all the units yet (the troop tree is in spoiler of original thread).  These are just a few I been working on and there are many new items not shown.  Even the troop types are original.  For example, all of them can spawn some ranged thrown weapon.  My point is, until you play them, you really won’t know.  I may seem defensive but it is really just a difference in taste.  I do appreciate the feedback. 

Nah, this isn't about being defensive or offensive. A sane debate is a part of development.

(On a different note, I'm aware that the paints are armors, but the other forumers weren't until now... )

I confess, I don't watch football too much, only world championships and sometimes the local matches, but trust me, that was more than enough    I don't doubt you made a serious research before actually bringing the paintings to form, and yeah, africans are more extreme in this manner than native americans. But I maintain my view about the faces: look at the second picture, the second guy to the right. A nice combination of yellow and white. This gives him a cool look. But the guy right next to him is funny, his face being entirely yellow. It could be just me, though. And yeah, I made notice how the "armbands" were synchronized with the throwing spears, I actually liked that much.

(Btw, what face codes did you use ? Some of the face-hairs - like beards - are pretty unfitting...)

Still unsure about those helmets, I don't see anything resembling an elephant on them. It could be just the pictures, though. Guess I'll just wait 'till you finish the rest and make it downloadable so I can make a more reliable criticism

PS: Seriously, why doesn't anyone except me comment Cyclohexane's work ? One or two opinion is rarely enough to see what the public thinks ...

MorrisB said:

PS: Seriously, why doesn't anyone except me comment Cyclohexane's work ? One or two opinion is rarely enough to see what the public thinks ...

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I think there are a couple of factors.  There are a lot of really cool mods recently released and while this one is great, many people have already played it.  When V5 comes out, it will be completely fresh (new map, laws, mercenary guilds, new items, etc.).  Then we will start seeing some new people on these forums.  Maybe we need a new signature promoting V5...

In addition, you have the multiplayer M&B version coming out and many people have went on to other games and will return later.  I've seen a few mods just die from no support because of this.  Honestly, I am not excited about multiplayer.  I used to, but now I'm sick of all the kids with no job and no sportsmanship.  I like to pick up and put down a game without having to play all the way through when RL things come up.  I especially like the ability to create mods. 

MorrisB said:

Nah, this isn't about being defensive or offensive. A sane debate is a part of development.

(On a different note, I'm aware that the paints are armors, but the other forumers weren't until now... )

I confess, I don't watch football too much, only world championships and sometimes the local matches, but trust me, that was more than enough    I don't doubt you made a serious research before actually bringing the paintings to form, and yeah, africans are more extreme in this manner than native americans. But I maintain my view about the faces: look at the second picture, the second guy to the right. A nice combination of yellow and white. This gives him a cool look. But the guy right next to him is funny, his face being entirely yellow. It could be just me, though. And yeah, I made notice how the "armbands" were synchronized with the throwing spears, I actually liked that much.

(Btw, what face codes did you use ? Some of the face-hairs - like beards - are pretty unfitting...)

Still unsure about those helmets, I don't see anything resembling an elephant on them. It could be just the pictures, though. Guess I'll just wait 'till you finish the rest and make it downloadable so I can make a more reliable criticism

PS: Seriously, why doesn't anyone except me comment Cyclohexane's work ? One or two opinion is rarely enough to see what the public thinks ...

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We already now that Cyclo won't listen.