Vikings vs. Mongols

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Pali Gap said:
I think this is a grand opportunity to resurrect the Mongols vs. Vikings discussion.

I do this now. I'll probably keep out of this thread, but still...

Remember this, however.

1) Keep the discussion realistic
2) In the end, Vikings will win, no matter what you do.
3) I am superior to you in every way.
 
Ruthven said:
2) In the end, Vikings will win, no matter what you do.

Can we postpone the end to sometime after eternity?

And I believe a link to this video is in order:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh9uK95p9vg

And this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktM-BKy0dZQ

:lol:
 
Why don't we just hop in my time machine and go get Harald Hardrad, and Ghenghis khan. Bring them back here and let them duke it out. Then we will get our answer on which people are better.  :lol:
 
I was looking up other Viking Mongol threads, and these debates squashed them.

DonKent:  I can't believe this iseven a topic...

Lets see:

Vikings were an undisciplined mob with superb light infantry. Their best warriors were the naked berserkers who threw themselves at their enemy. Their only battle field manuever was the sheild wall (a static defence against foot archers) and a frontal charge. They were usually led by a noble man who receive his title because he was born that way (king or lord)

Mongols were a disciplined professional army based on meritocracy. Their commanders became commanders because of ability (see Subodai and Jebe). The have a clear chain of command, disciplined, clear lines of communications, and an execellent logistic train. They were the pioneers of manuever warfare. Their entire army could move almost 50 miles a day (not match until WWII). Their weapons include the Composite Recurve Bow, a weapon more powerful than the english long bow. It can pierce through plate armor at 50 meters.

The Mongol would run circles around the Vikings.

Oh one more thing, the Mongols did have a Navy. They used it to invade Japan. A typhoon destroyed it. The Japanese believed that the Gods help them and were so thankful that they call the typhoon the devine wind or Kamikazi.
(This was a reply to some idiots, saying the Mongols had no naval forces.)

Pob:  Also the Mongols finished the destruction of the Sung (Song) chinese with the help of the fleet. At the battle of Yamen in 1279, and although outnumbered, the Yuan navy delivered a crushing tactical victory, annihilating the Sung.
However I really don't even really believe that the Mongols would have had an upper hand in the northern seas against the experienced Viking fleets. Methinks the real victory would have been in land and the Vikes would have had about 10% of chances of winning.
How? that's quite easy: the nomads could produce army commanders far more efficient than any other "white" one. Name at least one european commander in the entire Middle-Ages and even Renaissance that could have rivaled Subedei, or Jebe. The Mongols also had Hulegu, Bayan, Muqali, Guo Kan, Borchu and even Kubilai; any of these commanding even just an avant-garde would have trashed ANY Viking army in ANY terrain. Only if the supreme mongol commanding officer would have been an inept then I would bet on the Vikings, but not else!! Brute force is just pudding compared to wits and tactical knowledge. Period.

Oh! and about sige warfare, let's just conclude by saying that the chinese cities numbered BIG numbers of inhabitants and that didn't stop the Mongols and their top-of-the-line siege machinery. They even managed to take the "impregnable" castles of the Ismailis (the Assassins...or terrorists:-p).
If you don't believe me, then I suggest you go have a talk with the oh-so numerous defeated foes of the Khans (and they weren't slouches either!).


That pretty much convinced it for me, how about you?
 
Lord Kehm said:
Vikings were an undisciplined mob with superb light infantry. Their best warriors were the naked berserkers who threw themselves at their enemy. Their only battle field manuever was the sheild wall (a static defence against foot archers) and a frontal charge. They were usually led by a noble man who receive his title because he was born that way (king or lord)

And that made your whole post irrelevant. Norsemen didn't have naked berserkers, atleast there's no scientific evidence only sagas.
 
Why would a shield wall be irrelevant against horse archers? Does a shield really care is their opponent is on their my little pony? Don't think so. Also, they were perfectly capable of making a round shield wall, so the mongols would just be wasting their arrows. That would mean they would have to go into a full frontal assault into hand to hand combat, were vikings excel. If the vikings were masters at anything, they were masters of one on one, hand to hand combat. You know this. The Mongols would just be cut down. Also, I could name plenty of commanders worthy of any Mongoloid army. Charlemagne, Richard the Lionheart (My hero), Henry V, Barborossa, Henry the Eighth... the list goes on and on. That was a pretty bull headed move of you to say that no European leader was equal to a mongol commander. Just because they rose the the rank by birth doesn't immediatly make them incompetant.
Also, how do you suggest they would get to scandinavia if they couldn't beat them on water? Think about it. They would have to go hundreds of miles into the frozen north, past Finland, than trudge their way across the peninsula into Scandinavia. It would be worse than Napoleans march into russia. Few would survive the arctic winter, even with their mongolian heritage. That would have been the deciding factor in any campaign.
 
Don Doggy said:
Lord Kehm said:
Vikings were an undisciplined mob with superb light infantry. Their best warriors were the naked berserkers who threw themselves at their enemy. Their only battle field manuever was the sheild wall (a static defence against foot archers) and a frontal charge. They were usually led by a noble man who receive his title because he was born that way (king or lord)

And that made your whole post irrelevant. Norsemen didn't have naked berserkers, atleast there's no scientific evidence only sagas.
Berserkers I have no doubt existed, but I think that they were little more than good fighters with little to no fear of death. However, the romanticized naked, axe-and-sword wielding Berserker is fun to imagine.
 
TemujinSlices.jpg


^^ Perfect example of how a Viking vs. Mongol fight would go.  :wink:
 
Good to know one of these Viking fans actually knows something, or at least has seen a lot of movies. :smile:

Did Vikings not use leather?  Or heavy maces?
 
Pali Gap said:
Good to know one of these Viking fans actually knows something, or at least has seen a lot of movies. :smile:

Did Vikings not use leather?  Or heavy maces?
Chances are your Mongol would slash against a shield then be killed when the axe was brought down.
 
Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
Why would a shield wall be irrelevant against horse archers? Does a shield really care is their opponent is on their my little pony? Don't think so. Also, they were perfectly capable of making a round shield wall, so the mongols would just be wasting their arrows. That would mean they would have to go into a full frontal assault into hand to hand combat, were vikings excel. If the vikings were masters at anything, they were masters of one on one, hand to hand combat. You know this. The Mongols would just be cut down. Also, I could name plenty of commanders worthy of any Mongoloid army. Charlemagne, Richard the Lionheart (My hero), Henry V, Barborossa, Henry the Eighth... the list goes on and on. That was a pretty bull headed move of you to say that no European leader was equal to a mongol commander. Just because they rose the the rank by birth doesn't immediatly make them incompetant.
Also, how do you suggest they would get to scandinavia if they couldn't beat them on water? Think about it. They would have to go hundreds of miles into the frozen north, past Finland, than trudge their way across the peninsula into Scandinavia. It would be worse than Napoleans march into russia. Few would survive the arctic winter, even with their mongolian heritage. That would have been the deciding factor in any campaign.

first of all, i want to say that i love both mongolian and viking's warfare...so...

the shield wall would be useless 'cause when a shield is being hitten by a lot of arrow it became heavier..so the viking should drop them cause they're to heavy to be carry...

and..yes..the viking excel in hand to hand combat...against footen enemies...against a horsemen...no way
 
if your bracing a shield..and that shield is being hitten by a lot of arrows (talkin bout..well..more than 20 =P) the shield starts being heavy...because the baricenter of the shield is moved forward by the arrows.. :smile: and even beacause when the arrows are a lot...they DO became heavy :smile:
 
A battle between a viking warband and a mongolian one would result in a mongolian victory and scores of dead northmen. The vikings were pirates and merchants from the primitive ass end of northern europe while the mongols under Genghis Khan were a well trained, organized and mobile army that crushed any army it encountered.

It seems like a lot of people on this forum have bought the idea of vikings being huge superhuman warriors armed with gigantic swords and horned helmets. That's pretty far from the real vikings.


 
CinuzIta said:
if your bracing a shield..and that shield is being hitten by a lot of arrows (talkin bout..well..more than 20 =P) the shield starts being heavy...even because the baricenter of the shield is moved forward by the arrows.. :smile:

The bari-what? Look, I've held a quiverof 20-30 arrows. Not that heavy. If a mongol can have it slung across his back, a viking can have it on his shield  :smile:
 
jekelof said:
A battle between a viking warband and a mongolian one would result in a mongolian victory and scores of dead northmen. The vikings were pirates and merchants from the primitive ass end of northern europe while the mongols under Genghis Khan were a well trained, organized and mobile army that crushed any army it encountered.

It seems like a lot of people on this forum have bought the idea of vikings being huge superhuman warriors armed with gigantic swords and horned helmets. That's pretty far from the real vikings.

Well, at the first armed contact between mongols and vikings, probably in the kievan rus, than yes, mongolians would win. But as the vikings have complete control of the sea, how do you suggest they get to the vikings then? See my post a page back. It'll explain.
 
Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
The bari-what? Look, I've held a quiverof 20-30 arrows. Not that heavy. If a mongol can have it slung across his back, a viking can have it on his shield  :smile:

You missed the fact that there would be much of a shield left after being hit 20 times with a mongolian bow.

Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
Well, at the first armed contact between mongols and vikings, probably in the kievan rus, than yes, mongolians would win. But as the vikings have complete control of the sea, how do you suggest they get to the vikings then? See my post a page back. It'll explain.

That doesn't have a lot to do with who'd win does it? If somehow a mongolian force were to invade Scandinavia they probably would be able to gather some sort of ships, probably some sort of cog or other type of simple cargo ship.
 
Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
CinuzIta said:
if your bracing a shield..and that shield is being hitten by a lot of arrows (talkin bout..well..more than 20 =P) the shield starts being heavy...even because the baricenter of the shield is moved forward by the arrows.. :smile:

The bari-what? Look, I've held a quiverof 20-30 arrows. Not that heavy. If a mongol can have it slung across his back, a viking can have it on his shield  :smile:

uhm..i was pretty unsure about that word... :mrgreen:

i mean...if you're carrin' a shield..and you have your arm up...the arrow will move the weight in front of you..awww i cannot explain it well :mrgreen: hope someone with better english abilities will understand and explain this :cry:
 
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