Author Topic: Vikings vs. Mongols  (Read 19027 times)

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jekelof

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2009, 04:54:19 PM »
A battle between a viking warband and a mongolian one would result in a mongolian victory and scores of dead northmen. The vikings were pirates and merchants from the primitive ass end of northern europe while the mongols under Genghis Khan were a well trained, organized and mobile army that crushed any army it encountered.

It seems like a lot of people on this forum have bought the idea of vikings being huge superhuman warriors armed with gigantic swords and horned helmets. That's pretty far from the real vikings.


Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

Tiberius Decimus Maximus

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2009, 04:56:04 PM »
if your bracing a shield..and that shield is being hitten by a lot of arrows (talkin bout..well..more than 20 =P) the shield starts being heavy...even because the baricenter of the shield is moved forward by the arrows.. :)

The bari-what? Look, I've held a quiverof 20-30 arrows. Not that heavy. If a mongol can have it slung across his back, a viking can have it on his shield  :)

Tiberius Decimus Maximus

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2009, 04:58:49 PM »
A battle between a viking warband and a mongolian one would result in a mongolian victory and scores of dead northmen. The vikings were pirates and merchants from the primitive ass end of northern europe while the mongols under Genghis Khan were a well trained, organized and mobile army that crushed any army it encountered.

It seems like a lot of people on this forum have bought the idea of vikings being huge superhuman warriors armed with gigantic swords and horned helmets. That's pretty far from the real vikings.




Well, at the first armed contact between mongols and vikings, probably in the kievan rus, than yes, mongolians would win. But as the vikings have complete control of the sea, how do you suggest they get to the vikings then? See my post a page back. It'll explain.

jekelof

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2009, 05:02:40 PM »
The bari-what? Look, I've held a quiverof 20-30 arrows. Not that heavy. If a mongol can have it slung across his back, a viking can have it on his shield  :)

You missed the fact that there would be much of a shield left after being hit 20 times with a mongolian bow.


Well, at the first armed contact between mongols and vikings, probably in the kievan rus, than yes, mongolians would win. But as the vikings have complete control of the sea, how do you suggest they get to the vikings then? See my post a page back. It'll explain.

That doesn't have a lot to do with who'd win does it? If somehow a mongolian force were to invade Scandinavia they probably would be able to gather some sort of ships, probably some sort of cog or other type of simple cargo ship.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 05:07:36 PM by jekelof »
Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

CinuzIta

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2009, 05:06:13 PM »
if your bracing a shield..and that shield is being hitten by a lot of arrows (talkin bout..well..more than 20 =P) the shield starts being heavy...even because the baricenter of the shield is moved forward by the arrows.. :)

The bari-what? Look, I've held a quiverof 20-30 arrows. Not that heavy. If a mongol can have it slung across his back, a viking can have it on his shield  :)

uhm..i was pretty unsure about that word... :mrgreen:

i mean...if you're carrin' a shield..and you have your arm up...the arrow will move the weight in front of you..awww i cannot explain it well :mrgreen: hope someone with better english abilities will understand and explain this :cry:

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Tiberius Decimus Maximus

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2009, 05:17:45 PM »
The bari-what? Look, I've held a quiverof 20-30 arrows. Not that heavy. If a mongol can have it slung across his back, a viking can have it on his shield  :)

You missed the fact that there would be much of a shield left after being hit 20 times with a mongolian bow.


Well, at the first armed contact between mongols and vikings, probably in the kievan rus, than yes, mongolians would win. But as the vikings have complete control of the sea, how do you suggest they get to the vikings then? See my post a page back. It'll explain.

That doesn't have a lot to do with who'd win does it? If somehow a mongolian force were to invade Scandinavia they probably would be able to gather some sort of ships, probably some sort of cog or other type of simple cargo ship.

Hm. Thought I recalled Vikings carrying two shields. Maybe I was mistaken. And of course it would have a lot to do with who would win. The vikings would obviously win in a naval battle, so the only other option is to go through the frozen northern peninsula. It would be like Napoleans march through Russia. It would decimate the mongol army, so they would be forced to turn back, and, if the vikings had a particularly brilliant commander,  they would be waiting for them at the other end of the peninsula, and cut them all down. Thus, viking victory. Of course, on a mongol vs. viking battle, with all the vikings on one side, and all the mongols on the other, of course the mongols would win. They had farking HUNDREDS of thousands of warriors. It wouldn't even be a battle. Be completely unfair. But yes, mongols would win.

jekelof

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 05:46:07 PM »
First off, as you probably know the vikings existed between 800-1050 AD while the "mongol era" didn't start until 1206. This makes the whole Mongols VS Vikings thing very hard. You can't really compare them at all since the vikings weren't an organized nation like the mongol horde. The Vikings were split up in tons of different chiefdoms that raided, traded and warred with each other. If, somehow, the mongols invaded viking age scandinavia the would roll through it crushing the small viking warbands one by one. The vikings would never be able to field an army to match the mongols.

Second, If the mongols could travel through the frozen steppes of russia and mongolia they sure as hell could cross finland and invade Scandinavia through Norrland (which at that time was uninhabited by the vikings). And that is to say if they did it at winter. In the summer it's not very different from the rest of Scandinavia.

Third, the average viking probably carried more than two shields but this is not important since it would break up the shieldwall if they had to reach for new shields every other minute.



Let me live deep while I live; let me know the rich juices of red meat and stinging wine on my palate, the hot embrace of white arms, the mad exultation of battle when the blue blades flame and crimson, and I am content. Let teachers and priests and philosophers brood over questions of reality and illusion. I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

tommylaw

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2009, 06:07:54 PM »
the words organised and horde dont really go together

Tiberius Decimus Maximus

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2009, 06:48:16 PM »
First off, as you probably know the vikings existed between 800-1050 AD while the "mongol era" didn't start until 1206. This makes the whole Mongols VS Vikings thing very hard. You can't really compare them at all since the vikings weren't an organized nation like the mongol horde. The Vikings were split up in tons of different chiefdoms that raided, traded and warred with each other. If, somehow, the mongols invaded viking age scandinavia the would roll through it crushing the small viking warbands one by one. The vikings would never be able to field an army to match the mongols.

Second, If the mongols could travel through the frozen steppes of russia and mongolia they sure as hell could cross finland and invade Scandinavia through Norrland (which at that time was uninhabited by the vikings). And that is to say if they did it at winter. In the summer it's not very different from the rest of Scandinavia.

Third, the average viking probably carried more than two shields but this is not important since it would break up the shieldwall if they had to reach for new shields every other minute.





Oh, very well then. Nevermind that whole orginized invasion of England, or the siege of Paris, or any of that stuff! Vikings were completely unorginized! Of course! :roll: Come on, think a little bit buddy. You can't conquer a country through small scale raids. Cripple it, yes. Conquer? No. The steppes of Russia, and the arctic, ice covered peninsula connecting scandinavia and Europe/Asia are two completely different things. The mongols lived in steppes. This is a farking tundra. Good luck feeding your horses in that. Plus, you got quite a few mountains to contend with. Look, during the Great Northern War, there was a reason why even the Russians didn't go over that pass. You cannot bring a army over that and live. Sorry buddy.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 07:07:12 PM by Tiberius Decimus Maximus »

Tiberius Decimus Maximus

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2009, 07:08:06 PM »
the words organised and horde dont really go together

I lol'd.
There is nothing more to say.

Pali Gap

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2009, 10:39:54 PM »
horde  [hawrd, hohrd]
noun, verb, hord⋅ed, hord⋅ing.
1.   a large group, multitude, number, etc.; a mass or crowd: a horde of tourists.
2.   a tribe or troop of Asian nomads.
3.   any nomadic group.
4.   a moving pack or swarm of animals: A horde of mosquitoes invaded the camp.

–verb (used without object) 5.   to gather in a horde: The prisoners horded together in the compound.

I don't see anything about disorganization, do you?

To me it basically sounds like thousands of Mongols riding at you with the ground rumbling and the sun blotted out by arrows. ;)

Ruthven

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2009, 11:19:38 PM »
A battle between a viking warband and a mongolian one would result in a mongolian victory and scores of dead northmen. The vikings were pirates and merchants from the primitive ass end of northern europe while the mongols under Genghis Khan were a well trained, organized and mobile army that crushed any army it encountered.

It seems like a lot of people on this forum have bought the idea of vikings being huge superhuman warriors armed with gigantic swords and horned helmets. That's pretty far from the real vikings.



Forgot to mention this, but by "Vikings" I mean "Norsemen", I'm merely using the common term so as to be fully understood by even the people who lack education or intelligence altogether.





Pali Gap

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2009, 11:50:46 PM »
Still, the Norse people in general were not very prone to gathering into giant armies and fighting as one.

It wasn't just the cold that killed Napolean in Russia, it was the Russians slashing and burning all the resources while the retreated.  Vikings needed those resources-namely food-to bulge their bellies and fill out their asses that they would use to crush feeble English monks and woman during their pointless quests for loot.  They struck Europe when it was at it's weakest, and if met on the battlefield by a well-trained, well-equipped, and very large Mongol army, they'd shit in their pants and run.  Well, as far as they could run before they got perforated by arrows, spears, and sabres.

Tiberius Decimus Maximus

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2009, 02:13:22 AM »
Still, the Norse people in general were not very prone to gathering into giant armies and fighting as one.

It wasn't just the cold that killed Napolean in Russia, it was the Russians slashing and burning all the resources while the retreated.  Vikings needed those resources-namely food-to bulge their bellies and fill out their asses that they would use to crush feeble English monks and woman during their pointless quests for loot.  They struck Europe when it was at it's weakest, and if met on the battlefield by a well-trained, well-equipped, and very large Mongol army, they'd shit in their pants and run.  Well, as far as they could run before they got perforated by arrows, spears, and sabres.

You really don't like me do you? Or do you just make it your business to annoy me?
Anyways, more on topic. This is Finland we are talking about.
FIN. LAND. How much resources do you think they have over there? They barely have anything there now, let alone in the Viking- Mongolian age.
But how many times do I have to tell you: Yes, in a battle with all the vikings and all the mongols, yes, they would win. Mostly because the entire population of Scandinavia wouldn't equal the Mongol Horde. I won't let a petty dispute get in the way of an obvious fact. The main reason why they won is not so much their fighting ability as the fact that they just keep coming. The thing is ******** rediculous. The most a viking army would be able to field is probably around 10,000 to maybe 20-30,000 troops, but thats if they got every and any man who could bear a weapon. A majority would just be untrained footmen. Meanwhile, the Mongol horde ranges around, what, 100,000? Maybe more? As you, good sir, are expert on the Mongol Horde, you could probably tell me the exact number, down to that little flippin infant with polio they carried around or whatever.
Also, on the Vikings supplies, they mainly relied on food from the sea, such as fish and the like, and some hunting, mostly because their own land is a shithole for farming. So unless the Vikings or Mongol's managed to burn the fishies and bambies, Vikings are likely to be okay. So how do you suggest the vast Mongol Horde feed their army? The herd animals most armies carry around wouldn't last long. A few days at most. And if I recall, the great people of the steppes aren't too good at fishing. And the vikings would easily pop onto the shore, run up to the supply train, and burn it, then leave as fast as they came.
It's called logistics, my friend. A major part of campaigning. In many cases, it can be more important than any battle.

Pali Gap

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Re: Vikings vs. Mongols
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2009, 06:02:36 AM »
You make good points, and I must say I have yet to visit Finland. :)

To tell you the truth, sir, the first time I every took any interesting in Asian history was in mid-October of last year.  Before that, I was an arrogent bastard (Well, I haven't changed much, sadly enough), and I looked at modern China as an example of the continent's past, which is of course terribly wrong.

I guess all we can sum it up to is that Mongols were fierce warriors who had numbers, strength, strategy, and good training, and that Vikings were also fierce warriors who had little numbers, an advantage on the seas and a vast knowledge of raiding.