Author Topic: M&B Enhanced: Crusades, updated - Jan 29/ Rigger wanted  (Read 52769 times)

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Zaro

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M&B Enhanced: Crusades, updated - Jan 29/ Rigger wanted
« on: December 17, 2008, 07:45:33 am »
28th & 29th Jan update - Added some shot of map textures to the Map section.
27th Jan update - Mainly the setting section.
18th Jan update - Setting section.
3rd Jan update - Province, Politics and Faction Leaders sections.
2nd Jan update - Province section.
1st Jan update - All sections.


Main features:

- Realistic gameplay.
- New political, military and settlement systems.
- New settings.
- Tougher gameplay.


Setting

I'm changing the setting from some fictional land to sometime between the Second and Third Crusades (specifically, before Syria and Egypt were 'united'). I'm choosing that time because it allows for more factions and better balance. I'll either set it in the early 1170's or sometime after 1193 (anything but to the 1230's would be acceptable).

The 1170's are interesting as Nur ad-Din has united Syria and conquered Egypt. However, the newly-appointed ruler of Egypt, Salah ad-Din, wishes to rule independently. This creates a lot of tension between the two states and allows for the possibility of war, particularly as both wanted to unite Syria and Egypt and drive out the Crusader States. This scenario allows for four Christian states and two Muslim states (not including the Seljuk or Byzantines): Syria, Egypt, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Country of Tripoli, Principality of Antioch, and the Kingdom of Armenian Cilicia.

In 1193 Salah ad-Din dies and his empire is divided among his relatives. This leaves about 5 or 6 muslim factions and a very unstable situation. There are also the 'weakened' Crusader States, who may not actually have been weaker at all. The entire situation in the early 13th century is quite fragile and would be a very interesting scenario. The factions would be the same Christian factions as the 1170's scenario, but the muslim factions would be split into Egypt, Damascus, Homs, Hama, and Aleppo.

In both settings, it wasn't as simple as "Christianity versus Islam" (popular history also seems to simplify quite complex situations), especially it seems in the second scenario. There is a strong history of civil war, in-fighting, alliances between factions of different religions, backstabbing etc. The second setting feels more interesting in terms of factions, balance of power etc, but the first setting has some very interesting characters. There is also the possibility of adding the military orders as factions.


Player/Troop changes

The focus will be on representing combat more realistically, largely by removing the stats-based RPG system. Stats among troops and the player will be higher and more inline with each other, and will remain relatively static throughout the game. There are three classes of troop: militia, semi-professionals and professionals. Instead of having a huge difference in all stats like in Native, the real difference between the two classes of troop is in weapon skill and equipment. Furthermore, the player at best is little better than a professional-level soldier. The stats of all troops are significantly higher that most in native, in order for them to use their shields and weapons more effectively (i.e. faster combat). Horses will be more vulnerable, and considering their cost it would be wise not to use them recklessly.

Troops will be more generic than in native, but there will still be a large number of troop types overall. Troops fall into the basic categories of cavalry, men-at-arms, infantry and missile troops. When recruiting from your subjects you'll have access to only generic troops, being mounted men-at-arms, men-at-arms, infantry and crossbowmen. These troops will vary greatly in their equipment relflecting you hiring them as individuals. When you hire mercenaries you'll get more specific troops, like axemen, pavisse crossbowmen, longbowmen etc in addition to varying qualities, such as some axemen being better than others. I may add regional troop types and mercenary companies to spice it up a little.


Faction Leaders

Faction leaders are known as major lords, and are the holders of the visible settlements on the world map. You will interact with them often, get to know them, and become one of them (or potentially so if you choose the mercenary start). They will be displayed in greater depth and will have several additional stat values, as well as traits and titles. The additional stats are currently Respect, Reputation and Reason. Respect is the opinion others have of the effectiveness of your actions, that is, your level of competence as a leader.
- Respect will influence order in your lands, the morale of your troops, the respect you command from your rivals and the morale of enemy troops. The the stat is the better.
- Reputation is the opinion that others have of how you act, that is, honourable or dishonourable. This will influence order in your lands, the morale of your troops, your relations with leaders of various reputations, and the morale of enemy troops. Unlike respect, a low reputation isn't necessarily bad, as a ruthless but great leader can maintain order and infect the enemy with fear.

Leaders will also be given a personality that will influence their actions. This may cause them to be wise, foolish, chivalrous, weak, brave, warring, peaceful etc. The idea is to flesh out the characters and create an interesting environment.


Recruitment

There are two methods of recruitment. The first is the hiring of mercenaries from towns and they vary in quality and cost. The second method is to recruit from your subjects, and these will be taken from a limited but slowly replenishing pool of troops. This pool will be influenced by the population, wealth, order and health of your province, as well as the respect and reputation you hold as a leader. Mercenary companies will have specific troop types, while recruits will just be labelled 'infantry', 'crossbowmen', 'men-at-arms' etc to represent that they vary in equipment and quality, and are recruited as individuals rather than as groups.

In practise there is no party limit, we'll be limited by how many troops we can afford, and how many are available to recruit.


Combat/Battles

Combat will see many changes, such as those that the troop stat balancing brings, improved AI, morale and diplomatic influence. Battles will also be a slower affair and see an increase in size (I'll likely release optional downloads to cater for the different battle size setting people use). They will be tougher than native, require more caution and thought, and hopefully feel more epic and significant.

The influence the troop stat changes bring to combat is quite significant as they change the battles into a fight between men, rather than between immortal killing machines and peasant rabble. The player will find personal combat more of a challenge and is advised to act much more cautiously, as we become more important as a leader and less so as a combatant. We will no longer be able to rely on a small band of elites, as cost and availability will restrict us to a more balanced force.

The AI will see an improvement, and while it cannot match the abilities of the player, it will see some changes to make it more competitive. This includes more intelligent decisions on whether or not to attack, better organisation of forces, better use of missile troops, as well as whether to retreat. The one thing I really wish I could do but cannot is to implement flanking for cavalry.

Morale will be implemented, but not on an individual level like with Chel's battle morale. Instead, it will influence whether an army retreats, routs or requests terms. When this happens, the battle will finish and you'll be given the option of whether or not to pursue, or to discuss terms if they are offered. If you choose to pursue a routing army, you may cause a significant amount of losses, and pursuing a retreating army may cause them to rout. You may also fall victim to an ambush or cause them to stand and fight, which could be costly for your force. Don't worry about battles being too short, the large size of the forces will allow you plenty of time to kill before one side loses, retreats or routs. I chose to implement morale in this way as it's easy but also keeps the fight interesting until it ends. Retreats or routs will also rarely happen in the first round of combat.

The penalties of combat should be discussed, and why it will often be sensible to avoid it. First of all, a battle can cost you the lives of your troops. They much harder to replenish than native, so you'll want to keep them alive and healthy. A large loss of manpower will hurt your economy, order, morale, the respect you command, as well as leaving you vulnerable to attack. Other risks of battle are being captured and ransomed, losing equipment, losing respect, losing land, being injured or even killed. Finally, the AI will recognise these risks and act accordingly. Two armies will often avoid battle, or disengage after a quick melee.

As battle is costly, the discussion of terms will take place before battle. It may be as simple as one army departing the area, or there may be demands for financial compensation etc. These discussions will be influenced by the personalities of the leaders involved.


Progression

You will start a lord of a faction. The start will probably be as one of the weaker lords, with the aim of building yourself up to become extremely influential, and perhaps faction leader.


Provinces

Provinces are simply fiefs, and while there are less of them in this mod, they are also of more importance. There are no longer any villages on the map, but a dozen or so cities and castles have been added. Due to the shape of the map, it will actually feel busier than before, and natural trade lanes will appear (the map has a channels traffic). This has the unintended but welcomed consequence of vulnerability of trade, as war with a neighbour will certainly lead to a great reduction in trade income.

Provinces will be harder to capture than in native as each will be more significantly defended. The cost comes down to money and troops, and whether you can afford to lose one or the other. An assault will likely be quite bloody and will have longterm consequences, but a drawn out siege is a significant short-term drain on your finances. Also, holding on to the province is another matter altogether, as the inhabitants (at least influential supports of the defeated lord) or other lords may not stand for it (whether it be to maintain a balance of power, their relations with the defeated lord etc). There may be significant unrest, and it may be a better idea to force an agreement rather than conquer.

There are a handful of factors that represent the state of a province. These can be managed to extent, but some of it will always be out of our control.
- Population, which is dynamic and tracked competely. Affects manpower, but perhaps should also affect order (larger populations are harder to control), health (larger populations have more risk of disease) and efficiency (larger populations require greater management).
- Order. The stability of a province.
- Devastation. The value that enemy forces, rebels, natural disasters etc have ravaged the land.
- Manpower. The number of available troops. I will proably restrict this to a smaller percentage of voluntary troops, rather than allowing for a very large percentage of men to be recruited as poorer troops.
- Efficiency. The measurement of how effectively the province is governed. This is the direct value at which taxes are gathered, so 80% efficiency would mean 80% of potential revenues are gathered.
- Wealth,dynamic, completely tracked. The wealth is determined by the amount of money flowing through the province from both within and between provinces. This is to reflect that a province can be prosperous by itself, as well as prosperous through trade with others. It also allows wealth to be true, and not determined by some number (such as prosperity).


These will combine with an event system to create a provincial model. There are two primary influences, those being Respect (or leader effectiveness) and Events.

Respect
   -> Major influence of Order
      -> Major influence of Violent Events.

Events
   -> Violent Events - caused by low Order.
      -> Range from looting to full-scale rebellion.
         -> Major effects are lowered Efficiency and Devastation,
   -> Foreign Events - caused by foreign aggression.
      -> Invasion, besiegement and raiding.
         -> Major effects are lower Order, Efficiency and Devastation and a rise in Manpower.
   -> Disaster Events - Random occurance.
      -> Floods, fires, failed crops and disease.
         -> Most significantly affect Population, Manpower, and Devastation.
   -> Political Events - caused by political action.
      -> Declarations of war, peace, alliances, outcomes of battle, prisoner exchange etc.
         -> Most significantly affects Order.
   -> Positive Events - ?.
      -> Events such as population booms, increase in wealth etc.
         -> Most significantly affects Population and Efficiency.

Notes:

1. Most events each affect most or all factors to varying degrees.
2. All events have a degree of chance, so the system will often lead to unexpected events and outcomes. This is to remove linearity and to provide surprise.


Using this 'events' system, it's much simpler and more effective/realstic than trying to set up all factors independently and relate them all to each other. Also, some factors just aren't needed in my opinion (such as 'relations' and 'health') as they are substituted with events, and most other factors (such as populaton, manpower and wealth) can be relatively passive. It also leads management to be less about silly micro balancing and more about management of significant events, and probably better represents the upper management that are the major lords. The AI will also have this provincial model and it will strongly influence AI action.
 
These represent what will affect provinces and associated features (e.g. income and recruitment operate through the provincial system). There are naturally going to be various ways we can somewhat influence the state of the province, although like I said before, we're not completely in control.

Mangement of Order

Well this isn't tough, we can ignore, tighten our grip or try and solve the issue. I've no idea of what actions would be considered reasonable by medieval lords. Tightening our grip would be a tax/policing crackdown and suppression of any uprisings, however this could very well just inflame the situation. Solving the issue would involve financial or social leniancy. This could also backfire though, as your offers might be ignored or cause you grief from another sector of society. The respect and military power we hold would have an influence over these. Most matter of order will be concerning your nobles rather than the commoners.

Management of Events

Naturally, events that cause an order problem can be solved by addressing the issue of order, but other events will have to be handled differently. A foreign aggression event for example, would require military intervention as well as financial investment to rebuild. Political events such as declarations of war can be handled by addressing order, but also by making a popular political decision (such as a truce). Order and Events can influence wealth, so there will also be ways in which to increase wealth, as well as your own income. These would include investment infrastructure, adjustment of taxes, and perhaps diplomatic actions such as trade agreements.

Management of order and events will contain an element of chance, just like the events themselves. Decisions may have a variety of outcomes.

The AI will play under the same provincial model and take the same actions as the player. This would also have to tie in with political, economic and military goals to form a reasonable strategic AI. This would lead to decisions such as attacking a militarily and politically weak enemy, raiding the lands of a stronger enemy if he can't retaliate, only attacking if there's a high chance of success, staying out of wars and managing domestic issues, as well as different amounts of emphasis on how to succeed in the game (such as becoming a stronger trading power or military power).


Politics/Diplomacy

Politics will be extremely important, and while the system isn't too complex, I'm hoping it will be effective and interesting. This will including maintaining relationships with other major lords, involving peace, war, alliances, marriages, tribute, concessions and so on. The most important influences on politics are:

- Power. A score created from financial strength, military strength, political strength (allies/enemies) and the lord's character strength.
- Relations. Relations are influenced by your discussions with that lord, but also by general actions, such as treatment of subjects, allies and enemies.

Unlike Native, this political system will be completely dynamic, and the AI will use it just as the player does (minus the actual dialogue). The AI will consider power and relations of both itself and others when making decisions such as whether to maintain peace, whether to attack, who to attack, who to ally with etc.

There will be numerous political actions that are available to both the player and the AI. These include:
- Declaring war.
- Suing for peace.
- Alliances.
- Offering and demanding tribute.
- Paying ransoms.
- Subdigation, both through threat of force and by force.
- Threats and insults.
- Marriages.
- Loans.
- Assassination.
- Betrayal.
- Trade agreements.
- Request and offer military assistance.

There will also be the case of legitimate grounds for military action. People don't like a bully, so there should be a reason for a war to take place. The case isn't necessarily reasonable, such as going to war over an insult, but in one sense it is justifiable. If anything, it just provides a bit of hilarity, such as provoking a war by sending an insult, or making excuses for going to war.


Strategic AIy

As mentioned in some of the above sections, new AI will be implemented, and it will consider the political and provincial situation before deciding on a course of action. The political influence takes into consideration power of other factions and itself, as well as relations. The provincial influence is whether it should go to war or deal with domestic issues, as well as identifying who may be weak (example, targeting a order/disaster stricken province).

Generally, the AI will only look to attack if it is it quite favourable. This would mean targeting a militarily weaker faction who won't have enough external support to provide effective resistance. It may also mean targeting a faction that is in strife or distracted. It will not go to war without a reasonable chance of victory or the ability to support itself during the war, so there will often be periods of uneasy peace while factions are preparing and waiting for the right time to strike. The AI will also have a strong sense of self preservation, and will sue for peace if things aren't going well. It will often be in your interest to agree as you can gain from it economically and politically, while continuing war may drain resources and be unsuccessful anyway.

The AI will also be more intelligent regarding battles, making decisions whether to continue or cancel a campaign, whether to retreat and so on.


Equipment

Equipment will be adjusted to be more consistent in era, price and effectiveness. Much of the era consistency has been taken care of, with a number of later armours taken out in native. The idea is that it will take some time to save up for great gear, and for your equipment to match your progress in the game. The consistency in price also means removing the different imod conditions of the items (i.e. sturdy, rusty, reinforced) as these alter prices quite unreasonably, to the point where you can equip yourself almost as well for half the cost.

All armours will be replaced by my own. The type of armours will be focused around leather and gambeson for light armours, and the hauberk for heavy armours. There will be more armours than in native, but at the same time they will be more similar to each other.


Misc World map changes

There are various changes to world map options, such as attacking whoever you want, not being able to leave battle when knocked out, more nearby parties joining battle etc. No point listing them, as they're all just small changes.


Map

Below is an early version of the latest map. Needs a lot of work, but shows the layout and a rough idea of the settlements. Some of those settlements are in fictional positions (Cairo and Edessa are off the map - Cairo will stay but Edessa will be removed).






City icon:





An early shot of the terrain (tiling will also be removed):



« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:59:22 am by Zaro »

sergeant113

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2008, 08:10:33 am »
New map: absolutely, the old Calradia is getting tedious, we look forward to your new map!!!
# of factions: 20 is great, more dynamic to play, and personally, it was why i supported your Realism mod in the first place.

Hope it helps, Sergeant113

Syst3mcr4sh3r

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 08:25:05 am »
Like he said, new map would be good, and it'd be more dynamic with a larger number of factions.


Muglos

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 08:26:13 am »
Hurray!  :lol:
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Boeing

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 08:32:45 am »
New map, and of course more factions.

Leggeron

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 08:37:29 am »
What the other guys said

gamecubetoby

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 08:50:42 am »
Sounds pretty cool.

froggyluv

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 08:57:18 am »

 New map, 20 factions sounds far better.

Muglos

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 09:58:58 am »
I agree. having 20 or so factions would be much more interesting. There will be Lords running around everywhere plus it would be interesting to see Factions being completely destroyed by one another.
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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2008, 10:04:52 am »
20 factions, please. And they should all be nominally split into "nations" in terms of style. So four factions for Rhodoks, four for Vaegirs, four for Swadians, four for Nords and four for Khergits. Then it's up to the player to fight or unite them as he sees fit.
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Muglos

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2008, 10:52:11 am »
Zaro from your point of view on 20 factions: they would need to be pretty small yes? So what is your idea on how large they should be?

Like 1 capital city, maybe 2-3 castles and 3-6 fiefs? What is your idea I'm curious. And in terms of Lords: like 4-8 per faction or less? And will those Lords being family members?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 10:55:14 am by Muglos »
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Ragnar

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2008, 11:21:36 am »
definitely a new map. can't see the old one any longer  :wink: and 20 factions would be great!!

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2008, 11:48:54 am »
I can see why you would want to remove the rusty, battered, and crude modifiers, but I think leaving the modifiers which make the armour better would be good to leave in. It'd simulate being able to buy top of the line gear once you have made a name for yourself. Plus, it's just something to aim in the later part of the game.
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Jek

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2008, 12:00:12 pm »
A new map, of course! But about 20 factions: If realize, it should be good working politics system in the game, otherwise in existing "random politics model" 20!!! factions - it would be chaos: every hour random declarining war or peace, stupid situations like one faction attaks another, which is located on the other part of the world (and left their own castels without deffence against agressive neighbors) and ect. It should be working alliances, weakest factions should make alliances against stronger factions, factions should declare war only in case if there are exist any chance to win, and of cource it shoud be faction which is located close to this faction and ect. So only in case if you have realy good working politic system in your mod, you can make 20 factions, otherwise 5 is quite enought. And another point: 20 factions, I suspect, most of them will be very similar to each other and it would be "clone wars". I think that is more interesting to see 5 but interesting factions with different troops and tactics.

So, as for me, NEW MAP but 5 FACTIONS.

Leggeron

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Re: M&B: Enhanced (ex-Realism)
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2008, 12:28:33 pm »
And another point: 20 factions, I suspect, most of them will be very similar to each other and it would be "clone wars". I think that is more interesting to see 5 but interesting factions with different troops and tactics.

So, as for me, NEW MAP but 5 FACTIONS.


Interesting point. I am willing to agree on the politics and chaos bit.  But Im a bit tired of having 5 very different representative cultures battling in a small speck of land.  Id rather have more factions of the same or very similar cultures - something more realistic.  Or heck, have the present 5 main factions broken down into 4 new factions each.