Antemurale

Ideę tej modyfikacji kieruję do graczy polskich, w dalszej perspektywie do tureckich. Zacznę od historii: termin "antemurale" (łac. przedmurze) pochodzi z 1467 r., z memeriału skierowanego do Pawła II. Dotyczy on, oczywiście, Polski i jej roli w obronie przed barbarzyńskimi najazdami. W wiekach od XV do XVII niejednokrotnie oznaczało to starcia z Imperium Osmańskim. Wszyscy chyba pamiętamy śmierć hetmana królewskiego Stanisława Żółkiewskiego pod Cecorą, oraz wspaniałą wiktorię Jana III Sobieskiego. I chyba wszyscy też słyszeliśmy o husarii, pospolitym ruszeniu etc. Ze strony tureckiej z pewnością jest to równie ciekawe.

I tu właśnie rodzi się miejsce dla moda. Miejscem mogłaby być Mołdawia, bohaterem szlachcic polski lub osmański kalif (?), siłami neutralnymi np. kozackie oddziały. Myślę, że możliwości jest wiele. Co o tym sądzicie?

P.S. Liczę na odpowiedzi od Sivle'a i Matrixa33, ponieważ nie sąoni biernymi czytelnikami forum Mam jednak nadzieję, że zainteresuje się tym tematem więcej polskich graczy.

If you just wanted to contact Matrix33 you should have sent him a PM. I have no idea what this is about, I only know that it doesn't belong here.

Any chance of a translation?

Something about pawel the 2. and the osmanic empire, although i cannot remember any osmanic campaigns in central europe at the 15 th century, in that time they still where trying to occupy the balkan, but making a turkish wars mod would be generally a good idea if this post is about that, although the mod would start not earlier than 1529 when the first siege of vienna took place, or even 1683 when the 2nd siege was broken by a german-polish army, one of the major battles in history i might ad.

I remember something about the first siege, didn't someone's cannons get bogged down in the mud? Or was that napolian?

It is a proposal of a new mod. It would be placed in Moldavia, somewhere in XV-XVII century, during turkish-polish war. I think that it is quite interesting, because bot turkish and polish M&B players could take part in it. This wasn't cetain victory or defeat of any country coz on the both sides there were some (Cecore - death of great polish hetman Stanisla Zolkiewski and + 9.000 polish soldiers; Vienna - Jan III Sobieski and his recue to this city). There are more thing that fit in this war very well to M&B, but my english doesn't allow me to say them all. First I would like to talk about it with other polish players and that's why topic is/was in polish. Feel free to ask other qustions.

P.S. Doesn't it really belongs here?

it does belong here, many people just cant speak polish

Well, you could have made the suggestion in English.

Yeah... I don't see the point in starting the thread in Polish, and having to make the English translation anyways...

he couldnt explain it in english i think, not as detailed as he did in polish (i guess).

And this is the M&B general forum right? not an "english forum"

but indeed wedd understand it if it was in english, now only few people do, and i dont think they can make the mod on tyheir own

I didnt' want to make english translation. okiN made me to do it by telling that this topic doesn't belong here. As I said - I count on polish players, because this mod would be about quite important period in history of Poland. We will also try to make mod on our own (and amybe with cooperation with turkish players). Now I hope it's end of discussion about languages and off-topic chat

Well generally its a superb idea and i would surely be part of a mod since the Osmanic armys lured twice at my homecitys gates, the turkish wars where practically an "equal" to the greek-persian wars. However the fighting in Moldawia was not that important, i would rather set the area into Austria-Hungary in the 1520s. In that time Hungary was finally occupied after 70 years of struggle. Under Suleiman I. 1520-1566 the osmanic empire was at its height, and their expansion in europe was stopped at vienna, although it was more the fact that there was no infra structure in hungary so the osmnaic army was not able to bring in their siege canons. The winter came pretty early that year so they had to withdraw.

On wikipedia i did not even find a polish - osmanic war in that area, although it is clear there was some decent fight going on since the Polish kingdom was a direct neighbour to the osmanic controlled areas in moldavia, "siebenbürgen", etc.

So if a mod would take place in that time, the area would stretch from siebenbürgen (western ukraine) or even moldavia to eastern austria, although austria was still a small "state" at that time and still no kingdom itself. The longer the Osmanic wars lasted (totally 300 years) the more important became austria and russia of course, although in the 16 th century they did not even have a border with the osmanic empire yet so they would not take place here.


2nd sugestion:

1683 The 2nd siege of vienna, while the first one broke after 19 days due to lack of supplys and early winter, there where up to 300.000 men standing at the gates only defended by about 12000 men. The siege was lifted after a long bloody battle by an holy alliance initiated by the pope, led by the polish king Jan Sobieski III with 70000 men and his legendary hussaria cavalry cabable to attack and break pike formations from the front! The time around the siege would be a superb mod, osmanic warbands plundering the sorounding villages, killing or enslaving the inhabitants, almost as M&B is right now

I have found a very good map of euroe of that time, all the events i have described above are shown on the map with date.

http://members.chello.at/h.baumgartlinger/europe.jpg

Ps: PrinceScamp you where right about the canons in both

Princescamp wrote

I remember something about the first siege, didn't someone's cannons get bogged down in the mud? Or was that napolian?

Click to expand...

But also Waterloo Napoleon was unable to use properly his cannons cause the day before it rained a lot and the ground turned to mud. So in addition to the higher difficult to carry them to an upper possition, there was the handicap of reloading: after each shot, due to teh mud, some cannons moved backward, forcing their operators to move it again. Of course this is out of palce if you referred to Naples with "napolian", so I missunderstood it .
TYR wrote

the greek-persian wars

Click to expand...

That are called Medic wars (just as Caraghe-Roman were called Punic wars).

Marconus:

Again, there´s the omnipresent problem of fire weapons, somebody has to fix that before you are able to do it. And also, why you dont allow to join non-polish or turkish modders? There´s people really good at modelling around here.

@TYR: I see that we have much to talk about

@Nahadiel: I would love to see non-polish modders in this project, but first I would like to make some background, for example sides, units, placement etc. And because we (polish) learn about this war in school and it is quite important part of our history, the first group I would ask are of course polish. gamers. If there will be good attitude I would love to spread idea of this project to other players. But now it's time to search theoretical fundaments.

The two sides I see, are polish nobles (ex. hussaria cavalary) and osmanian army (janczarzy - that know how to translate). The neutral units: cossacks, germans. And so on.

Hmm to my sources the historical correct terminus of the hostilities between the greeks and the persian empire is "persian wars" ,
however there may be other interpretations, doesnt matter anyways it was just a comparsion.

I agree that we will have difficulties with fireweapons, like the whole animations, and even the gunflash etc. I can provide my modeling skills and of course giga tons of resources about anything related to that area

About the factions: I would Suggest 2 factions: Osmanic Empire and their support troups from hungary and other subjugated territories, and the Holy alliance, formed of Polish,German(holy roman empire) forces. This sugestion would also mention that the mod would take on the events of 1683 of course

TYR, if manage to introduce a whole system aobut firearms, before release of the new tools, you ´re gonna be a kindda of genious for lots of players awaiting for that; I´d be your main cultist cause I´m interested in that WH40K mod.

And about persian-greek wars, I ´ve always seen them as Medic wars cause that was the name the greek give to a persian tribe (in Greek, non english of course, this is not theme hospital ). Jus t a Roman called Cartaghinians as Punics (curiously, in Latin derived Languages, the Punic meaning has negative implications, just as punishing (maybe happens the same in english) or forbidding implications.

Lol Nahadiel, im afraid im not that genius at all, just a humble modeller but this does not mention you shall not raise a cult for the mighty god of war I mentioned i can model any weapon and any armor needed, i also have acess to historical sources, books and of course the museums are filled up under the rooftop with all kind of weaponary, armor, guns etc.. ps: if you like have a look yourself, the largest armory in the world

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raider5/austria/graz/museums/zeughaus/arms_and_armour/

TYR said:

About the factions: I would Suggest 2 factions: Osmanic Empire and their support troups from hungary and other subjugated territories, and the Holy alliance, formed of Polish,German(holy roman empire) forces. This sugestion would also mention that the mod would take on the events of 1683 of course

Click to expand...

I think that those side are good and will be well balanced although the exact time might be uncomfortable. I mean that we would have to use some historical characters. By making in somewhere in the middle of XVII cent. we could use nknown characters, which would be more universal. Holy Aliance character could be (as now it's squire, marchant) A polish nobleman (very good one-handed weapons, especially polish saber), german footman (good defending and polearms) etc. Osmanian - really don't know, here I count on turkish players

Dont doubt that, but the problem seems to be beneath the code of the game, you know, flat trajectory projectiles, instant damage instead of the delayed one of bows and arrows and an animation for the shot ammo.

The most feared and famous troops of Soliman were the jenizars. Following a special sistem, the Otomans kidnapped, enslaved or even bought young foreign boys to raise them as ministers, advisors, galley captains, courtmen and the strongest ones as elite soldiers (jenizars). They were taught to master the use of muskets, scimitars and riding as main skills.

Edit: ouch, double post, didnt notice you posted before the first mine.