Author Topic: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested  (Read 5946 times)

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Sicnarf

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Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« on: September 29, 2008, 10:20:29 PM »
Map speed in relation to weight and pack animals.
Path finding at 10 for all experiments.
Excluding the baseline test all tests were carrying a pig weighing 15.0 in addition to any weight mentioned, to provide food for my character, no other food was used and all weight was added using tools which weigh 50 per unit. All testing was done outside Dhirm during daylight hours with a cheated character that had all stats at 30, all abilities at 10 and riding a horse. No companions or troops present this was strictly a solo operation. While doing my test runs in and out of Dhirm to determine speed I was harassed by some looters who I killed, This raised my moral and raised my baseline speed from 15 to 15.2, this occurred after test 1 and during test 2, I restarted test two but did not redo testing on test one.

Baseline
Carrying weight 0
Pack animals 0
Speed 15.2

Carrying pig
Carrying weight 15.0
Pack animals 0
Speed 14.8

Test 1
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Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 0
Speed 5.4

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 1
Speed 7.9

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 2
Speed 9.2

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 3
Speed 10.2

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 4
Speed 10.6

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 5
Speed 11.1

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 6
Speed 11.5

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 7
Speed 11.8

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 8
Speed 11.8

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 9
Speed 12

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 10
Speed 12

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 11
Speed 12.1

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 12
Speed 12.1

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 13
Speed 12.2

Carrying weight 1000
Pack animals 14
Speed 12.1

Speed continues to decline from here on out as more horses are added.

Test 2 -> 150 roughly the weight of every diffrent food type combined
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Carrying weight 150
Pack animals 0
Speed 12.2

Carrying weight 150
Pack animals 1
Speed 13.6

Carrying weight 150
Pack animals 2
Speed 13.8

Carrying weight 150
Pack animals 3
Speed 14.1

Carrying weight 150
Pack animals 4
Speed 14.0

Carrying weight 150
Pack animals 5
Speed 14.1

Carrying weight 150
Pack animals 6
Speed 13.9

Speed continues to decline from here on out as more horses are added.

Test 3  -> 300 roughly the weight of carrying 2 of every diffrent food type combined
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Carrying weight 300
Pack animals 1
Speed 9.8

Carrying weight 300
Pack animals 1
Speed 11.9

Carrying weight 300
Pack animals 2
Speed 12.6

Carrying weight 300
Pack animals 3
Speed 13.1

Carrying weight 300
Pack animals 4
Speed 13.2

Carrying weight 300
Pack animals 5
Speed 13.4

Carrying weight 300
Pack animals 6
Speed 13.3

Test 4
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Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 0
Speed 8

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 1
Speed 10.5

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 2
Speed 11.5

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 3
Speed 12.2

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 4
Speed 12.4

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 5
Speed 12.7

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 6
Speed 12.7

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 7
Speed 12.9

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 8
Speed 12.9

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 9
Speed 13.0

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 10
Speed 12.9

Carrying weight 500
Pack animals 11
Speed 13.0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Test 5 Carrying 1 food item a Pig
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Carrying weight 15
Pack animals 0
Speed 14.8

Carrying weight 15
Pack animals 1
Speed 15

Carrying weight 15
Pack animals 2
Speed 14.8

Carrying weight 15
Pack animals 9
Speed 14.1

Test 6 Carrying 1 food item cheese
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Carrying weight 6
Pack animals 0
Speed 15

Carrying weight 6
Pack animals 1
Speed 15.1

Carrying weight 6
Pack animals 2
Speed 15
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusions
Most informative thing discovered is that Armour and weapons in your inventory or worn on your person do not slow you down at all, it does not matter if the weapons and/or Armour is bought in a shop or looted from defeated foes they have NO EFFECT ON YOUR MAP SPEED. I filled my inventory with all heaviest weapons and Armour I could buy in Dhirm and I was still able to move at 15.2 map speed. With 99 moral I took 22 bandits then 6 looters solo with looting at 10 and put all the loot in my inventory, it had no effect on my map speed.
Can confirm that the they type of horse placed in your inventory does not effect bonus given, no need to buy coursers a lame sumpter will do the job just as good.
If you have foot troops with you adding horses to your inventory does nothing to make you move faster outside of negating weight in your inventory.
If you are not trading and only carrying one piece of food having more than one horse in your inventory will actually slow you down a tiny bit (Test 5).
Early game when you are only carrying one piece of food all the time Honey, cheese and butter are the lightest one's you can buy and will allow you to move a tiny bit faster than carrying any other food type.(Test 6)
Their is no set amount of horses that you should have in your inventory all the time it depends entirely on the amount of food and trade goods you are carrying.
If you have one of every food type then 3 horses is the best amount to have (Test 2)
If you have two of every food type then 5 horses is the best amount to have (Test 3)
If you have three of every food type then 8-9 horses is the best amount to have (Test 4)
Bare in mind that food does not get lighter as it is consumed, a pig that weighs 15 when you buy it will still weigh 15 right up until the point where it disappears from your inventory.
Traders will have to work out a good number of horses to carry as the amount of goods in their inventory are constantly changing.

Final thought
Having to many horses is not really crippling, if you carry 1 piece of food with 9 horses in your inventory instead of the recommended 1 it will just result in a 6% drop in map speed. (Test 5)

Sicnarf

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2008, 10:20:53 PM »
Started a test to see how town relation effects buy and sell price of Armour with a town, same item used for all buy and sells, trade skill is at 10, was taking forever to get relation up by just buying drinks so I started doing quests which is why not all the relation ship numbers are included, if the number is not included I did not test it.

Relation 0
Buy price 29186
Sell price 10102

Relation 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,
Buy price 28961
Sell price 10327
You earn roughly 2.2% more money per sale over the base price, in fact for all the following figures you make either +225 or +224 selling the item over the previous level.

Relation 12, 15, 16, 17, 19,
Buy price 28737
Sell price 10551

Relation 27, 29, 30, 32.
Buy price 28512
Sell price 10776

Relation 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44,
Buy price 28288
Sell price 11000

Relation 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51. 52, 53, 54,
Buy price 28063
Sell price 11225

Relation 57, 58, 59, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66,
Buy price 27839
Sell price 11450

Relation 67, 68, 69, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77,
Buy price 27614
Sell price 11674

Relation 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88,
Buy price 27390
Sell price 11899

Relation 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98 ,99
Buy price 27165
Sell price 12123

Breakpoints appear to be at multiplies of 11+1 so -> 12, 23, 34, 45, 56, 67, 78, 89, you cannot reach 100 relation.,
Percentage of money saved or gained for buying and selling after getting relation up to 89+
6.9% cheaper to buy items over base price (0 relation).
You receive 17.39% more money for items sold over base price (0 relation).
Best way to think of it is, for the first point of relation you get and then every 11 points after that you can sell stuff for roughly 2.2% more than you could before and buy stuff for roughly 0.75% cheaper.

Conclusions.
Amount of money saved for purchases is very small and not practical for cheap items, for lordly items it would amount to massive savings but being unable to predict where items you want to purchase will appear I'm not sure if it's practical.
For items sold the gains are alot more impressive and if you say captured a central city like Dhirm and kept it for yourself and used it to sell all your loot you could stand to make significant profits for your efforts over time. But do bear in mind that it's only 17% more money at 89 relation that means an item worth 100 denar would sell for 117 instead so you would have to be taking the long view and bulk sales into account.
Thier is no point in taking relationship with a town over 89 as that is the final breakpoint and no more gains can be made.

I would like to add that you will have a relation ship of 1 with any town you buy a round of drinks in or won a tournament in which almost everyone does for another increase of the same amount you would have to get another 11 points of relation.
Having trading maxed out and no relation will get you 34.6% of your buy price back, maxing town relation and trading will give you exactly 44.6% of your buy price back exactly 10% more.

To add a little more perspective getting you trading to level 3 will give you almost the same sales/buy bonus as working your relationship with a town up to level 100.

Odd note, this was the first test I started and I attempted to do it using a legit character by not saving and reloading when I ran out of money, this was taking way to long and kept getting interrupted by an on going war, additionally I already had relationship of 7 with the town so data was missing. So I created a new cheated character. But the data I obtained with the non cheated character was trade at level three and the data it provided me does not match the results of the trade 10 character. Breakpoints for a trade level 3 character (Started at relation 7) were 9 and 14 as opposed to the above 12 then 23. So this could be more beneficial to a non trader character or maybe my first test was messed up for other reasons. If someone wants to start a character with no trade skill and obtain the data be my guest and I'll add the info to this post.

Worth all the effort or not? On one city maybe if you take it high enough, depending on your play style, you decide.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 03:17:06 PM by Sicnarf »

Sicnarf

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 10:21:22 PM »
The effect trading skill has on the buy/sell price, all testing done using the same item (Piece of Armour) with a cheated character that has all stats at 30, testing done in Dhirm with relationship with town at 0. The trade skill was incremented on the main character with is why the +1, +2 etc is present. Having the trade skill on a companion would yield different results due to their native -1 and lack of skill bonuses. This was strictly a solo job with no companions or troops present.
Legend :
Pay x% of original buy price = The % of the original trade 0 buy price you would have to pay.
Get x% of original buy price = The % of the original trade 0 buy price you would get by selling this item back to the shop.
Get x% of current buy price = The % of the current buy price with regards to trade level you would get back buy selling the item.
Get x% more money for selling stuff than if you had trade at level 0.

Trading 0
Buy 44902
Sell 4490
Pay 100% of original buy price
Get 10% of original buy price
Get 10% of current buy price

Trading 1
Buy 43779
Sell 4490
Pay 97.5% of original buy price
Get 10% of original buy price
Get 10.25% of current buy price
Get 0% more money for selling stuff

Trading 2+1
Buy 41534
Sell 4939
Pay 92.5% of original buy price
Get 11% of original buy price
Get 11.9% of current buy price
Get 10% more money for selling stuff

Trading 3+1
Buy 40411
Sell 5163
Pay 90% of original buy price
Get 11.5% of original buy price
Get 12.77% of current buy price
Get 15% more money for selling stuff

Trading 4+1
Buy 39289
Sell 5612
Pay 87.5% of original buy price
Get 12.5% of original buy price
Get 14.28% of current buy price
Get 25% more money for selling stuff

Trading 5+2
Buy 37044
Sell 6061
Pay 82.5% of original buy price
Get 13.5% of original buy price
Get 16.36% of current buy price
Get 35% more money for selling stuff

Trading 6+2
Buy 35921
Sell 6510
Pay 80% of original buy price
Get 15% of original buy price
Get 18.12% of current buy price
Get 45% more money for selling stuff

Trading 7+2
Buy 34799
Sell 6959
Pay 77.5% of original buy price
Get 15.5% of original buy price
Get 20% of current buy price
Get 55% more money for selling stuff

Trading 8+3
Buy 32553
Sell 7857
Pay 72.5% of original buy price
Get 17.5% of original buy price
Get 24% of current buy price
Get 75% more money for selling stuff

Trading 9+3
Buy 31431
Sell 8531
Pay 70% of original buy price
Get 19% of original buy price
Get 27.14% of current buy price
Get 90% more money for selling stuff

Trading 10+4
Buy 29186
Sell 10102
Pay 65% of original buy price
Get 22.5% of original buy price
Get 34.6% of current buy price
Get 125% more money for selling stuff

Conclusions
If you max out trade things cost 35% less and sell for 125% more than if you had 0 trade, that means over twice as much money when selling loot, god damm.
Looking at it from a more money from loot point of view the first 3 levels give you very little but every level after that gives a 10% increase minimum. Getting trade to level 4 gives you 25% more money from loot sold and since you can get trade to 3 with 9 charisma and then read a book to take it to 4 all without taking charisma past 9 it's a compelling incentive to put three points into trade even with a fighter build.
The jump in profits through sales from level 9 to level 10 is huge, it's an extra 35% for all loot sold for that one extra skill point, if anyone would bother taking Charisma to the necessary level 27 to do so is another question.

Cat Lord

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2008, 10:31:41 PM »
Excellent ! :shock:

Thanks a lot Sicnarf.   8-)

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Paingod

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2008, 10:58:24 PM »
So, in short, I need 3 horses since I only use 1 of every food type... I shouldn't bother with town relations... and trade is a great skill to have if you like money.

Awesome legwork!  I appreciate the heads-up on the numbers.  I wonder about these things, but never have the follow through to do the math.

Orj

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2008, 11:19:10 PM »
Thanks! This should be useful.

Sound Chaser

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2008, 11:29:05 PM »
I'm impressed :D Very helpful, thanks!

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 12:57:36 AM »
Good work - found the section on town relation particularly informative.  Good to know that trade is so much more useful for prices, but that it still may be good to get a relation of 1 in each city if possible.
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fisheye

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 03:40:04 AM »
Awesome! Somebody give this guy a medal. Keep up the good work!

Tyfedo

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 10:28:06 AM »
Aahh... Good O'l hard-core science.

This was really helpful, now I won't buy those six lame sumpters to speed up my army. Why won't it speed me up if I have people traveling with me? Someone has to carry all that ale anyway, and we don't wanna leave him behind to drink the barrel all by himself. Why can't a horse do it?

Zilberfrid

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 10:31:57 AM »
I am impressed by your thoroughness, truly a scientist at work.
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Sicnarf

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 03:13:26 PM »
Thanks for the nice posts.

Have updated and cleaned up Town relations having finally got relation in a town maxed out.

Intresting that no one commented on the fact that armour and weapons in your inventory does not effect your map speed in any way, was I the only one who believed they slowed you down?

Red River

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2008, 04:48:58 PM »
ok a few points I'd like to make.
first. ya never mention party skill bonuses. so effectively your 3 trade translates to 3+1 = 4 as seen in the party screen... that bonus is even greater at skill 10(+3?).
second. town prosperity can impact the prices( I think).
third. what 'bout villages? they are more important because higher relation lets ya hire top tier troops for only 10 denars each. I find that food is usually cheaper to buy in villages as well as some other items. does relation affect the prices there too?
that's it for now. keep up good work!

Sicnarf

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2008, 08:18:47 PM »
ok a few points I'd like to make.
first. ya never mention party skill bonuses. so effectively your 3 trade translates to 3+1 = 4 as seen in the party screen... that bonus is even greater at skill 10(+3?).
second. town prosperity can impact the prices( I think).
third. what 'bout villages? they are more important because higher relation lets ya hire top tier troops for only 10 denars each. I find that food is usually cheaper to buy in villages as well as some other items. does relation affect the prices there too?
that's it for now. keep up good work!

Party +x skill bonuses are mentioned and listed in the testing, armour and weapon prices are not effected by price flucations they are worth the same everywhere depending on trade skill and relation. For sales and purchases your relations with villages are identical to your relations with towns as far as selling armour goes, same break points and same percentage gains, at least as far as relationship level 25 further testing beyond that point became problamatic due to lack of quests after waiting 15 in game days. I did not test anything to do with the cost of food as supply and demand/cost is covered in other posts.

MountainBlade

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Re: Map speed/pack animals, Trade skill and town relations tested
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2008, 08:34:55 PM »
This is very handy. Great work.
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