"10 Things Christians and Atheists Must Agree On"-- an interesting article

Repeating your original assertion is certainly not logical.  I have just pointed out that there is a very good arguyment for the fact that common morality IS logical after all.

Click to expand...

First off, relax.

You didn't give the argument, you just said that it exists. Not very helpful to me.

Easy peasy - if I am considerate to others, they are more likely to be considerate to me.  If I am a ****head to others, they will likely respond in kind.  This is reciprocity, and it is precisely the kind of LOGICAL idea that the game theory analysis of "morality" relies on.

Click to expand...

Sure, but it's an oversimplification. I'm polite and I expect other people around me to be polite, but it's not why I do it. I do it out of impulse, because I've been trained to be polite. I don't have time to be calculating all the time.

And I have explained why I disagree.  At best you are saying they FEEL distinct, but that is not the same as asserting they ARE distinct.

Click to expand...

Acting on impulse is inherently distinct from logic. The important thing to remember is that morality can be misused because it has nothing to do with logical thinking.

Murdering a human being is morally wrong in most value systems. However, if another group of humans is made to look like monsters, you don't have to feel guilt from killing them anymore. That's why in war, the enemy is almost always portrayed as 'evil'. This manipulation of morality has nothing to do with logical thinking.


To apply this to the topic at hand, most people prefer to do what they consider morally right. This applies to Christians, Atheists, everybody. If we assert that this is true, and that there is no such thing as good and evil, suddenly black and white interpretations of the world look childish at best. There is no reason to imply that any one group is evil because there is no evil, everyone is just trying to do what they believe is right from their perspective. Monsters do not exist.


EDIT:

Yair, either you are missing the point or I am. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. The world won't fall apart either way. We can live with belief in God, and, whether you like it or not, we will. In fact, the point, I think, is that it doesn't matter. Regardless of who is right, it's not that big a deal, and there is absolutely no reason to hate someone from the other group just because of their membership. Hatred of Christianity is just hatred of another monster, a myth.

Mage246 said:

Reciprocity is logical for the group but illogical for the individual. In a system in which there is an incentive to cheat the group, it may be logical to do so, but not moral.

Click to expand...

See the Iterated Prisoners Dilemma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma.  It can be advantageous to the individual to cheat the group, IF and only if the group is not going to hold a grudge and persecute you for it later.  If you are obliged to live with the people you are considering cheating, then it is in your best interests to play nice so they play nice too.  The "group" is not distinct from the shared interests of various individuals.

Bellum said:

You didn't give the argument, you just said that it exists. Not very helpful to me.

Click to expand...

I can't reproduce thousands of pages of anthropological research very easily, and so I have given yuou a very cut-down version.

Sure, but it's an oversimplification. I'm polite and I expect other people around me to be polite, but it's not why I do it. I do it out of impulse, because I've been trained to be polite. I don't have time to be calculating all the time.

Click to expand...

No you don't.  Which is one of the reasons such a code of conduct is embedded in society, and why you were trained to follow that code.  Nevertheless, its not a case of niceness or altruism, it is a form of exchange - good nehaviour for good behaviour.  And that means that you can;t just ascribe it to illogical altruism and lack of long term self-interest.

Acting on impulse is inherently distinct from logic. The important thing to remember is that morality can be misused because it has nothing to do with logical thinking.

Murdering a human being is morally wrong in most value systems. However, if another group of humans is made to look like monsters, you don't have to feel guilt from killing them anymore. That's why in war, the enemy is almost always portrayed as 'evil'. This manipulation of morality has nothing to do with logical thinking.

Click to expand...

I agree that the individual involved may not be engaged in the act of thinking logically.  But that is not the same as claiming that morals are some sort of illogical or antilogical phenomenon.

Yair, either you are missing the point or I am. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. The world won't fall apart either way. We can live with belief in God, and, whether you like it or not, we will. In fact, the point, I think, is that it doesn't matter. Regardless of who is right, it's not that big a deal, and there is absolutely no reason to hate someone from the other group just because of their membership. Hatred of Christianity is just hatred of another monster, a myth.

Click to expand...

Well you see, yes and no.  First of all, some christians claim that without religion, there is no morality.  If I am not afraid of a big Sky Daddy, then I am free to go around murdering and raping.  So the argument that it would be logical to be irredeemably selfish, and that religion therefore provides illogical-but-healthier morals, is quite often launched against atheists.  My point is therefore to demonstrate that there is a sound logical basis for playing nice with others that does not require religious morality in order to explain it.

Secondly, I'm afraid I do regard religion negatively - as someone once said to me, "I'm only a racist when I'm in church", and he went on to give a big religious explanation for why black people were inferior to white people.  Religion is the realm of uncritical thought; it wallows in belief and despises analysis.  It is proud of its lack of logic.  And if that is the way that people are taught to think, then it is much easier to convince them that some funny looking foreigners are evil and have to be killed.  After all they have learned NOT to think for themselves, and to believe the pronouncements of "moral" leaders.

IMO, religion is dangerous.  It is in its own right an unwillingness to look at the world and deal with it as it is, and it makes its adherents easy to persuade of evil things.  While I do not condone the persecution of religion, I can and will say that the world would be better off if nobody believed in god.

Bellum said:

Yair, either you are missing the point or I am. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. The world won't fall apart either way. We can live with belief in God, and, whether you like it or not, we will. In fact, the point, I think, is that it doesn't matter. Regardless of who is right, it's not that big a deal, and there is absolutely no reason to hate someone from the other group just because of their membership. Hatred of Christianity is just hatred of another monster, a myth.

Click to expand...

It always matters what's right, just because somehing is bearable doesn't mean it shouldn't change. Of course the world will manage to go on with religion, as it did before. I'm just saying we can do much, much better. I also don't hate religious people in general- I pity them.

SharpFish said:

Mage246 said:

Reciprocity is logical for the group but illogical for the individual. In a system in which there is an incentive to cheat the group, it may be logical to do so, but not moral.

Click to expand...

See the Iterated Prisoners Dilemma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma.  It can be advantageous to the individual to cheat the group, IF and only if the group is not going to hold a grudge and persecute you for it later.  If you are obliged to live with the people you are considering cheating, then it is in your best interests to play nice so they play nice too.  The "group" is not distinct from the shared interests of various individuals.

Click to expand...

I'm well aware of game theory, but morality is not a Prisoner's dilemma. The difference between a prisoner's dilemma and morality is that you can often break moral codes without ever being caught. In a system in which other people assume that everyone else will abide by the same morality (perhaps out of the false expectation that it is a prisoner's dilemma aka superrationality, and that therefore no one would want to break ranks, perhaps for some other reason), the rewards for secretly breaking the moral code are extraordinarily high. The only way to prevent this is to rigidly enforce the moral code. In other words, to have some sort of omnipresent Morality Police. And I think most of us can agree what a bad idea that would be.

In a prisoner's dilemma, it is assumed that all participants are already in custody, and as such can be manipulated and monitored as needed. But that's not how it works in the real world, at least not when it comes to morality. The most that we often know in the real world is that somebody, somewhere is breaking the moral code, but we don't know who or why or if they'll get caught. Some get caught, sure, but others don't. And the ones that don't are amply compensated for the risks involved.

If it was a prisoner's dilemma it would look like this:

Suppose a large group of people of some large number X

If person A betrays the group, they get $2 (small number, but it's just for examples sake) and everyone else gets nothing. If nobody betrays the group, everyone gets $1. If both person A and B each betray the group, they each get $1, and so on for diminishing returns as more people betray the group. If everyone in the group betrays each other, they all get nothing. The group will not know which decision that you make, but it is large enough that you can not know (or even see or hear) everyone in it. There is also a chance that an enforcement mechanism will detect your betrayal and punish you for it, but the mechanism is far from perfect and the more people who betray the group the less chance it has of catching you. The logical choice is to betray the group, since even if you aren't the only one betraying it you'll get something, whereas if you don't betray and someone else does you'll get nothing. This is similar to how crime and other immoral behavior works, with the difference that obeying the system doesn't get you nothing, but it does mean that there's a *chance* that you'll lose a great deal if you are targeted by criminals.

In order to prevent rampant crime, it is necessary to have systems in place which make the system behave less rationally, not more, in addition to enforcement mechanisms which make it more likely that rule breakers will be caught. This is the role that religion, ideologically-based moral codes and the justice system play.

Morality Police? Works well on TW, don't see why it wouldn't translate to real life.

13 Spider Bloody Chain said:

You hate genocide, you hate iron-fisted dictators who line up peasants and jump over them with monster trucks.

Click to expand...

I will never.  Ever.  Admit hate for that.

Oh boy. Well, I'm an atheist, and I also mostly agree with the commenter.

I was born catholic. I went to a type of Sunday school until I was 11 or 12. I was tired, ever since I was able to think logically, of the religious bull****. I didn't like being told what to do, or what to believe by some annoying old lady who volunteered to teach, but couldn't teach a dog to sit(crappy metaphor, I know). You have to go to church. You have to love GOD. You can't lie or do any fun ****. You can't read Harry Potter. You have to pray. I thought the rules were stupid. And who am I doing this for? Some being I'm supposed to just believe exists? If he wants my love so much, why doesn't he send down some angels to perform miracles until I kiss his ass.

Religion is bull**** that fatass people need to believe hoping God will help them lose weight. That sick people need to believe God will make them better. No, God doesn't exist, he can't do ****.

gamerwiz09 said:

Oh boy. Well, I'm an atheist, and I also mostly agree with the commenter.

I was born catholic. I went to a type of Sunday school until I was 11 or 12. I was tired, ever since I was able to think logically, of the religious bull****. I didn't like being told what to do, or what to believe by some annoying old lady who volunteered to teach, but couldn't teach a dog to sit(crappy metaphor, I know). You have to go to church. You have to love GOD. You can't lie or do any fun ****. You can't read Harry Potter. You have to pray. I thought the rules were stupid. And who am I doing this for? Some being I'm supposed to just believe exists? If he wants my love so much, why doesn't he send down some angels to perform miracles until I kiss his ass.

Religion is bull**** that fatass people need to believe hoping God will help them lose weight. That sick people need to believe God will make them better. No, God doesn't exist, he can't do ****.

Click to expand...

Teenage rebellion phase can be tough.

I don't aim to defend religion, but it annoys me that people take anti-religion to the extremes.

LK said:

gamerwiz09 said:

Oh boy. Well, I'm an atheist, and I also mostly agree with the commenter.

I was born catholic. I went to a type of Sunday school until I was 11 or 12. I was tired, ever since I was able to think logically, of the religious bull****. I didn't like being told what to do, or what to believe by some annoying old lady who volunteered to teach, but couldn't teach a dog to sit(crappy metaphor, I know). You have to go to church. You have to love GOD. You can't lie or do any fun ****. You can't read Harry Potter. You have to pray. I thought the rules were stupid. And who am I doing this for? Some being I'm supposed to just believe exists? If he wants my love so much, why doesn't he send down some angels to perform miracles until I kiss his ass.

Religion is bull**** that fatass people need to believe hoping God will help them lose weight. That sick people need to believe God will make them better. No, God doesn't exist, he can't do ****.

Click to expand...

Teenage rebellion phase can be tough.

I don't aim to defend religion, but it annoys me that people take anti-religion to the extremes.

Click to expand...

I expected that kind of of response. I haven't thought up a witty reply though, so...**** you!

Religion in general can be a pain, but really gamer, I think you're exaggerating a bit. No Harry Potter?

LK said:

Teenage rebellion phase can be tough.

I don't aim to defend religion, but it annoys me that people take anti-religion to the extremes.

Click to expand...

It's more annoying that people take religion to extreme(er)s. Then they start having you do **** their way.

gamerwiz09 said:

LK said:

gamerwiz09 said:

Oh boy. Well, I'm an atheist, and I also mostly agree with the commenter.

I was born catholic. I went to a type of Sunday school until I was 11 or 12. I was tired, ever since I was able to think logically, of the religious bull****. I didn't like being told what to do, or what to believe by some annoying old lady who volunteered to teach, but couldn't teach a dog to sit(crappy metaphor, I know). You have to go to church. You have to love GOD. You can't lie or do any fun ****. You can't read Harry Potter. You have to pray. I thought the rules were stupid. And who am I doing this for? Some being I'm supposed to just believe exists? If he wants my love so much, why doesn't he send down some angels to perform miracles until I kiss his ass.

Religion is bull**** that fatass people need to believe hoping God will help them lose weight. That sick people need to believe God will make them better. No, God doesn't exist, he can't do ****.

Click to expand...

Teenage rebellion phase can be tough.

I don't aim to defend religion, but it annoys me that people take anti-religion to the extremes.

Click to expand...

I expected that kind of of response. I haven't thought up a witty reply though, so...**** you!

Click to expand...

lol





you could have thought of a better rant against Christians... the one you offered is sorely overused. If there were an Atheist's Manual to Bashing on Christians, your post would be listed as one of its Works Cited.

G36E said:

Religion in general can be a pain, but really gamer, I think you're exaggerating a bit. No Harry Potter?

LK said:

Teenage rebellion phase can be tough.

I don't aim to defend religion, but it annoys me that people take anti-religion to the extremes.

Click to expand...

It's more annoying that people take religion to extreme(er)s. Then they start having you do **** their way.

Click to expand...

Well yeah but I've honestly never seen one of those religious extremists. Granted I live in a nice suburban neighborhood (I do attend college in the city, though), but I find the oh-so-righteous atheists far more common nowadays, at least around my settings.

I think both atheism and religion have got their good points. But from my viewpoint atheism is starting to resemble its own religion more and more, because I find that people are increasingly starting to disregard the valid points of the arguments of the religion side in favor of the view that the human mind is a machine. I really don't think it is. I mean, I don't know about Homo Sapiens being created out of mud and being endowed with life by a divine breath - I think evolution wins on that point.

But to me it seems that many atheists are just so driven to discredit the religious themes of sacredness and intangibility that they fail to realize that even though the human psyche might be explained in scientific terms (like, as someone else pointed out, the evolutionary advantage of social behavior), there is definitely something about the human mind that logic alone cannot capture. Your sense of self, and your values - psychology might explain where those values come from, but what they mean to you cannot be quantified. Love might indeed be simply the artifact of evolutionary pressure that favored individuals who developing an emotional bond with their close family members. But that explains where it came from, not what it is - you can't fully capture something like that in words, nor in scientific terms.

It seems like people assume that every religious person is some sort of zealot who is going to burn you at the stake if you don't convert. That stereotype doesn't really exist anymore, so stop relying on it.

G36E said:

Religion in general can be a pain, but really gamer, I think you're exaggerating a bit. No Harry Potter?

Click to expand...

lol, I know. But I used to read them and I'd hear how the Christians protested them, etc. and it just seemed really stupid. If you look at it, Christianity is really arrogant. You can't believe anything but it, and their belief is better then all others.

Mage246 said:

It seems like people assume that every religious person is some sort of zealot who is going to burn you at the stake if you don't convert. That stereotype doesn't really exist anymore, so stop relying on it.

Click to expand...

I am relying on it because I am supposed to pray and meditate every damn day because "it is good for me". [digress]**** you, I'll do it if I want to.[/digrees].

I know very well that not all religious people are zealots. However, the fact that there are religious people who are zealots makes me rather... peeved.

Is anyone here demanding that you pray and meditate every day? No? Well, you do realize that the only religious people that you're insulting when you badmouth religion on these forums are the ones who aren't trying to force you to act that way. So taking it out on them is rather unfair, wouldn't you say?

Point taken.

Some people (aka., the commenter) won't even settle for a compromise. They don't want a peaceable line with religion. There isn't much you can do with them or for them unless religion is trashed. (Granted I just fulfilled number 7, but oh well.  )

I say well done to the writer.

Well, I don't blame him, he's right...Religion is useless.

gamerwiz09 said:

Well, I don't blame him, he's right...Religion is useless.

Click to expand...

If it motivates some people to be kind and generous if only out of fear of a deity (whether or not it exists), I don't see why religion is completely useless.