Author Topic: New Faction Research: Scythia  (Read 8292 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ealabor

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Faction: Carthage
    • View Profile
    • Hegemony 268 B.C.
  • Faction: Neutral
New Faction Research: Scythia
« on: June 30, 2008, 11:16:04 am »
This thread will be for research pertaining to the western Scythians which settled by the Crimea, and parts further northwest.


Alxcruel

  • Sergeant
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Khergit
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2008, 12:11:48 pm »
Some history for beginning.
4rd century BC. Scythian king Ateas united all Scythian tribes. King Ateas was killed in a battle with Macedonian troops in 339 BC.
Zappirian (thracian alderman of Alexander the Great) invented to the Scythian territory in 331 BC. Macedonian troops was crushed near Olvia polis.
In 3 rd BC Scythians lost some territories and moved their capital to the steppe Crimea. It was calling Naples Scythian( found by king Skilur).
Most powerful Crimean Scythia(CS) reaches in 2 BC. King Palacos conquer Olvia polis and some Chersonesian holdings.
CS become weaker during the Bosporian war. But it gained influence again in second part of 1 BC.
In 3 rd AD CS was destroyed by gots.

CS settlement: Naples Scythian(capital), Habei, Palacii and Napit.

Noxanima

  • Regular
  • *
  • NUNC AUT NUNQUAM
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Swadian
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2008, 07:14:00 pm »
some historians find them look like some old turkic tradition, even many Turkish historians accepts them as a Turkic tribe..
anyway they looted Parthians, and fought with Greeks many times,
for a more neutral perpective they should be thought as an ındo-european nation... mosly light cavalry dominated army.... 
True Fact!!!
***** 92% of teens have moved onto rap.If you are part of the 8% that still listen to real music, copy and paste this into your signature

Alxcruel

  • Sergeant
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Khergit
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2008, 09:39:25 am »
It was iranian-speaking nomads, like Sarmatians, Alans ore Sackas. Today Ossetian are last descendants of this tribes. Scythians was most powerful tribe of Eurasian Steppes in 7th -4th BC. In 3th BC they settled down in Crimea and became a half-nomads.

Scythians found many towns and settlements in Crimea and lower reach of Dnieper.  They conquer Olvia polis and Chersonesian suburbs during 2rd BC.

At crimean period Scythians had numerous cavalry(light and heavy) and light infantry. In the battle near the Fat river Satyrus  army consists of 10 000 scythian cavalry, 20 000 scythian infantry and 4 000 mercenaries. Best and main part of this cavalry was heavy cavalry.
Scythian heavy cavalry was armed with swords(Akinak), axes(Sagaritha), long spares(3-3,5 m), bows and heavy armor. Horses had armor to.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 10:31:25 am by Alxcruel »

chudolf

  • Knight
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 01:20:16 pm »




Eumolpus

  • Master Knight
  • *
  • Workers of the world, unite!
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Khergit
  • MP nick: Snowball
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 02:08:40 pm »


I remember this as someone's sig...

Merlkir

  • Grandmaster Knight
  • *
  • This is not me. I'm a distinctive bastard.
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 05:25:46 pm »
also they're Sarmatians, not Scythians. And too late period, something AD (5th century I think..)
Don't make me get all Merlkir on your ass.

"The fire sword is an ancient weapon of mediocre power!" "They are somewhat agitated by your combo attack!"

^remember, cheaper isn't always better.

Trooper5445

  • Master Knight
  • *
  • Exiled
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Rhodok
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 10:37:34 pm »
http://www.metrum.org/mapping/scythia.htm - Very detailed Geography

(click to show/hide)
The Forum of Taleworlds is a medium sized, liberal forum, remarkable for its tight restrictions on idiocy. Its population of 33.46 thousand citizens are ruled by a group of mostly-benevolent dictators, who grant the populace the freedom to live their own lives but watches carefully for anyone to slip up.

Quote from: Marx
I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member


sergeant113

  • Squire
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Swadian
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 05:01:04 pm »

racingsoul

  • Recruit
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vaegir
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2008, 12:50:46 am »
The Sarmations would be the correct people in this period. The Scythians were not a united people. They were barbaric and not united. They were never conquered by anyone they just disapeared from history. The Sarmations are said to be the decendants of the Scythians and the Amazons. They inhabited the land above the Black sea and northwest of Roman Dacia all the way to the north of the Caspean Sea. They were nomadic and were the ones to master horse archery and is what they are also famous for. Also there were few cities in the Steppes on account of the harsh climate. The summers were very hot and winters were very cold. The only cities that would be found would normally be by a river. We can't find much information about these peoples because they had no system of writing. The Greeks, Persians, and Roman did have encounters with them and recorded what they found. But the Romans never attempted to conquer Sarmatia, nor did Alexander or any other Greek because the land was vast with no trees expect by rivers. The Persians did run a campaign into Scythia north of the Caucas Mountains but the Scythians (there name at the time but would have been refered to as the Alans I believe) let the Persians lead by Cyrus (I think that's the right general who lead the campaign) deap into their territory and let them starve. The only food available would have been animals but they contantly move. The Scythians attacked and Cyrus Flead. Otherwise Sarmatians would be the correct name at the time.

Merlkir

  • Grandmaster Knight
  • *
  • This is not me. I'm a distinctive bastard.
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 08:25:33 am »
I believe Sarmatians were just one of the tribes at that time and that Scythians still existed. That's why we have Sarmatians AND Scythians..
Don't make me get all Merlkir on your ass.

"The fire sword is an ancient weapon of mediocre power!" "They are somewhat agitated by your combo attack!"

^remember, cheaper isn't always better.

racingsoul

  • Recruit
  • *
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Vaegir
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2008, 01:08:26 am »
The Scythians are the decendants of the Cimeranians. They inhabited the Steppes until they disappeared from history. The Sarmations were now the people inhabiting the Steppes. Some of the tribes were the Alans, Roxalanians, and others.

Merlkir

  • Grandmaster Knight
  • *
  • This is not me. I'm a distinctive bastard.
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2008, 07:04:23 am »
I dooubt it's that simple, I've read several articles claiming that the name sarmatians often described completely different groups of people and that it's not clear at all who they were at what time..
Don't make me get all Merlkir on your ass.

"The fire sword is an ancient weapon of mediocre power!" "They are somewhat agitated by your combo attack!"

^remember, cheaper isn't always better.

Weaver

  • Master Knight
  • *
  • Ursus rursus
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2008, 10:06:02 am »
Quote
The Scythians are the decendants of the Cimeranians. They inhabited the Steppes until they disappeared from history. The Sarmations were now the people inhabiting the Steppes. Some of the tribes were the Alans, Roxalanians, and others.

wrong. both scythians and sarmatians came from the east. they are believed to be of indo-iranian origin but i don't think they actually were consistent tribes. imho, what we call scythians and sarmatians were just two consequent waves of tribes who assimilated with each other and aboriginal population to form somewhat similiar ethnic groups. thus scythians are tribes who came westwards from the great steppe in circa 7 cent. b.c. and partially assimilated with cimmerians who lived there before. and sarmathians are the second wave of migration, partially assimilating on their turn with scythians and each other. but not all scythians chose to assimilate with newcomers so they moved to Crimea where Scythian Neapolis and a few other settlements appeared in 3-2 cent. b.c. (roughly at the time when this mod takes place)

edit: i'm not 100% sure that Scythian Neapolis and Scilur were present in 268 b.c. though. the city is believed to be found on the verge of or in the 2nd cent. b.c. and Scilur wasn't probably born before the 2nd cent. b.c. because he's supposed to be waging war against Mithridates VI of Pontus.
also i don't think Palacii existed then because it was a new fortress clearly named after Scilur's son Palac(us) the last scythian king.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 10:39:32 am by Weaver »
Make ye no truce with Adam-zad -- the Bear that walks like a Man!

Weaver

  • Master Knight
  • *
  • Ursus rursus
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Neutral
Re: New Faction Research: Scythia
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2008, 04:45:37 pm »
here i've found a great drawing of a scythian noble warrior's classic outfit in the period of about IV-III b.c.

scale armour was the favourite armour of the region's warriors even in pre-scythian times. although scythian bronze scale armours were also found, iron was by far the most popular material in scale armour manufacture of the time. on the other hand note his greaves and helm - they are bronze and hellenic in style. this is 100% accurate because royal scyths actually used greek helms and greeves (but never greek body armour). in earlier periods (befor IV b.c.) helms and legwear was also scale, but in III b.c. such equipment would be archaic imho. its interesting though how hoplite accessories turned out to be so handy for barbaric heavy cavalrymen. a battle girdle grants additional protection to his body and serves to wear weapons, a cup, a grinding stone and of course a "gorit" - special cavalry quiver which can contain a bow and up to 50 arrows. "gorits" were made of wood and leather (leather should be taken from scyth's cursed enemy's right hand, as legend has it) and decorated with metal plates (sometimes gold and silver). this gorit is clearly very expensive so this guy must be a nobleman. his akinak is also very fancy but it seems that he prefers mace and javelins while on horseback. his cavalry shield is made of wood and leather, its not very strong but is light and mobile. a great example for highest tier scythian heavy cavalryman in the mod.


tier tree ideas:
scythian army was divided into light cavalry, heavy cavalry and infantry. heavy cavalry consisted of noble and rich scythians, it is deemed to be an ancestor of kataphraktoi. infantry was a meat shield. scarcely equiped, armed with simplest weapons scythian infantrymen nevertheless were a very important part of the army, because without their help scythian cavalry sucked ass against phalanx.
so here's a troop tree i whipped up in a few minutes (i've divided nomad scythes and royal scythes into two trees - hire nomads in tribal villages and royals in forts and towns):
1(1st tier).scythian youth - 2.scythian nomad - 3.scythian infantry - 4. scythian veteran infantry
                                                               - 3.scythian light cavalry - 4.scythian veteran light cavalry
3.royal scyth horseman - 4. royal scyth heavy cavalry  -5. royal scyth kataphraktoi
its just an example. i know that tier names are kinda cheesy, but thats because my english sucks.   :?
also, keep in mind that scythian women were as fierce warriors as men.


weapons:
when you say scyth, you mean horse archer. easy as that. all scythian horsemen (even elite heavy cav.) bore bows and used them masterfully on horseback. that's why Herodotus nicknamed scythians "hyppotoxotes" (spelling?), "horse archers". scythian bow was composite and heavily recurved. i believe khergit bow model from native and other Σ-shaped bows would do.
akinak - very popular weapon among scyths. a shortsword varying in length from 40 to 60 cm. scythians learned that akinaks suck when sarmatians came with longer and more powerful cavalry swords. so in IV-III b.c. greek makhairas became more and more popular in Lesser Scythia.
axe was a simbol of royal power. although scythes didn't usually use axes in battle i'd probably give axes to some scythian leaders in the mod.

armour:
iron (and scarcely bronze) scale armour for heavy cavalry, hide and leather armour for the rest. some light cavalrymen could have their leather armours be reinforced with iron plates.
helm designs - thracian, corinthian, attic, halcidian, are all valid. no helms for low-rank infantry - only felt hats. like the one a nomad with a big red shield here wears.

Disclaimer: a picture by the great russian artist V. Vasnetsov. from historical point of view its utter rubbish, but i couldn't find a fine image of the felt hat anywhere.shields were usually wooden, sometimes reinforced with iron plates. cavalrymen fastened their shield to their armour on the back and forearm which let them have both hands free to use a bow and still to benefit from a shield.

villages:
i'm afraid we'll encounter problems with settlements as Scythians only held Crimea and Dnieper and Bug lower courses at that time. plus most of their known settlements situated around modern Simferopolis. but i think it's okay to place some nomad scyth villages up the Dnieper.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 06:38:05 pm by Weaver »
Make ye no truce with Adam-zad -- the Bear that walks like a Man!