Top Five most influential

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Asen said:
Emperor_Danny said:
Also if ,as you say they were not greeks were are theese people today? 

Assimilated.  Like the non-Greek Minoans.

Also, it is little use to use the name of cities to prove Greek origins to all surrounding peoples.  Many cities have been known by multiple names.  And, if Greek names are all that survive, that merely proves the ascendancy of their history.  I'm not disputing that Macedonia was Hellenized at some point, or even that groups of Macedonians were Greek in origin.  What I am saying is that the record is unclear and many people who are rational, intelligent, and honest fall on various sides of the issue.  Naturally, the Slavs say that Macedon was Slavic.  I dismiss that out of hand.  Naturally, Greeks claim that Macedon was always Greek.  Many of them say that about the peoples they assimilated around the Black Sea and in the Mediterranean (the Eteo-Cretans, the Eteo-Cypriots, the islander aborigines) as well, that the Minoans, even when they spoke no Greek and practiced their own religion, were Greek.

The truth is more complex, and likely the peoples of the Mediterranean and some of the peoples of ancient Anatolia (the Trojans even, potentially) stem from other, ancient civilizations which have long since vanished.  The Greek record has survived, but there is no reason to accept it without criticism.  After all, so many Greek cultural traits were taken from societies that were definitely non-Greek.  Dionysus from Asian ecstatic cults, Attis likewise (he was Phrygian), and the kouros/kore statuary borrowed from the Egyptian style.

The cypriots were myceneans and nowadays they speak one surviving idiom of ancient greek, the Pontians who were condempted to death by the Turkish authorities were non-greeks but they were hellenized and also greek colonies made the region more hellenized. The macedonians (or Makedones, Makednoi) acording to the greek mythology were descentants from the 2 survivors of the cataclysm Deykalion and Pyra. Their first son was Hellin----> Greek (Hellinas) who, acording to the myth became the father of children with names releted to the regions were their descentants were living. This sourse of infos , I think prooves the truth. But actually the truth can be hard to find...  :mrgreen: 
 
Danny, I find it odd that you'd bring in a non sequitur regarding modern nationalist conflict in a discussion regarding the ancient peoples of Greece and Anatolia.  An axe to grind?

Archonsod, agreed that the Macedonians were culturally Greek.  I'm not disputing that.  But our new friend here claims that it is racism to dispute the Greek-ness of the Macedonians.  All I mean to say is that the reality of cultural history is more complex, as peoples develop, change, and evolve.

I did not bring up the various sources of Greek religion and culture in order to denigrate the Greeks, but rather to insist that there are many things that were known as Greek that, going far enough back, were not Greek.  It is the nationalist's habit to declare things essentially tied to this or that culture.  Archaeology, more often than not, does not support such an attitude.

It is quite possible (though far from certain) that the Macedonians were Greek by a certain point but were not always Greek before hand, and perhaps derived from various sources, as you yourself say, Arch.  That is all I claim.  I never claimed that the Macedonians were never Greek, just that they weren't always Greek.  In any case, the Macedonians whom we discuss were.
 
I am not a nationalist fist of all. I hate nationalists. I'm just trying to bring up the truth. This is maybe a react to the slavic propaganda.

SORRY for my attitude but macedonia is surely greek by the antiquity.  :mrgreen: History is complex of course but that can't cancsel the greek-ness of macedonia

Thank you for your attention 
 
1. Sun Tzu
2. Rommel
3. Einstien
4. Napoleon
5. John Chard & Gonville Bromhead <- Rorke's Drift
 
Conversation went a little off-topic, don't you think? He he.

The definitive top five:

1-Emperor Heliogabalus
2-Guy Fawkes
3-Sancho Panza's donkey
4-The head of King Louis XVI
5-The Chesire cat
 
Asen said:
Archonsod, agreed that the Macedonians were culturally Greek.  I'm not disputing that.  But our new friend here claims that it is racism to dispute the Greek-ness of the Macedonians.  All I mean to say is that the reality of cultural history is more complex, as peoples develop, change, and evolve.
It depends on whether we define Greece as the city state cultures or the geographical boundaries. I mean technically, the Macedonians were always Greek, it was those Africans to the South who were the foreigners :wink: There's not much information from the pre-Greek period, but then even the tribesmen living in what would become Athens would have problems being Greek before Greece as a concept actually existed.
 
Actually u are right mate. Before the Greeks , in Greece, lived the Pelasgians Mollosians and many other smaller tribes. All the Greeks came later. The Sparatans, Epirots and macedonians were the most new to greece (they came in greece eround 1100 BC, declaring to be the sons of Hercules, so as to proove they were Greek). (As I've said they were dorians)

U where are you from?
 
Why is it slavic propaganda? If anything its me confusing two groups by the same name in the same area from very different time periods with each other. All I said (or all I really meant) was that even if they were culturally and genetically Greek, Macedonians had a hard time convincing the Greek city states that they were, Alexander I had to prove his lineage to get into the Olympics, after he gave them a rather lot of help. I also don't see how your not a nationalist, that really just means you love your nation or country, I'm rather nationalistic about my Scottish ancestry (although I usually play that up more for comedic effect, like refusing to admit that Edward Longshanks ever beat us, and that anything not Scottish is crap and that Russians are Scottish because of a 500 year old piece of paper saying we come from that area [but not that culture] and Sean Connery [who is of Irish ancestry] in Red October).
Blood of the North, why Newton, I thought I heard he might of stolen the gravity thing from someone else.
 
First dear British-man,
I know and believe that scots came from Ireland (the scotii). Maybe you are right. Though the Kingdom of Macedonia was ipoteles (=vassal state) to the persian empire----> this meant that they were not allowed in the olympics due to the fact they were fighting allonside with the enemy. Most of the Greeks knew Macedon was Greek. Spartans were Macedonia's allies during the peloponesean war. The Greeks usualy had greek allies (they trusted them a bit more, though they had no problems being allies to foreigners).
I am glad you admit that the citizens were 'always' (=when the greeks came to greece) Greek and I hope all the world will resist to the American point of view, the policy of 'divine and conquer' or as we say in greece 'divine and rule' (diairei kai vasileue).

:mrgreen: Thanks a lot  :mrgreen:
 
Lowlandlord said:
Why is it slavic propaganda?
Google Macedonian history. Observe the revisionism on both sides.
Macedonians had a hard time convincing the Greek city states that they were, Alexander I had to prove his lineage to get into the Olympics, after he gave them a rather lot of help.
They didn't, you had the usual North / South tension (The southerners considered the Northern Greeks to be upstart barbarians, the Northern Greeks saw the South as effeminate nancy boys. Some things never change) but Macedonia was considered Greek. Alexander had to prove his lineage not because he was Macedonian, but because he claimed descent from Argos.
To be honest, questioning a persons suitability for the games was a pretty traditional and regular method of getting an opponent disqualified. In fact, it was a pretty common slander to discredit any opponent. Perikles himself was accused of being a bastard by none other than his own son.
 
Archonsod said:
Lowlandlord said:
Why is it slavic propaganda?
Google Macedonian history. Observe the revisionism on both sides.
Macedonians had a hard time convincing the Greek city states that they were, Alexander I had to prove his lineage to get into the Olympics, after he gave them a rather lot of help.
They didn't, you had the usual North / South tension (The southerners considered the Northern Greeks to be upstart barbarians, the Northern Greeks saw the South as effeminate nancy boys. Some things never change) but Macedonia was considered Greek. Alexander had to prove his lineage not because he was Macedonian, but because he claimed descent from Argos.
To be honest, questioning a persons suitability for the games was a pretty traditional and regular method of getting an opponent disqualified. In fact, it was a pretty common slander to discredit any opponent. Perikles himself was accused of being a bastard by none other than his own son.

What is ''revisionism?''

Also that happens even today. Some people call  the supporters of a football team gypsy (thought they are no black or gypsy) 'cause that team was created by greek refugees from Turkey in about 1923-1925. That's because we have antagonistic relationships between us in greece. Many people, here in Macedonia and generally the citizens of the regions far from Athens, speak of the 'state of Athens'  which doesn't care about its citizens ect... That's a bit true. Most work (public roads hospitalls ect) are mabe in athens though many are mabe in the rest of greece.
I forgot something else i would like to tell...
 
Revisionism is when someone revises or rewrites something to better support their point of view. And actually I don't think the Scots come from Ireland, the Scotii represent a small southern part of what is now Scotland, the first King of Scotland ruled over mostly the Picts, who apparently came from Orkney and Scythia before that (I guess through the Baltic or something). The Irish have something about a Scythian Prince and Egyptian Princess coming through the Pillars of Hercules to Ireland too though. Also, Alexander was in the Olympics after they got their freedom, no ipoteles. Why would anyone not want Alexander in the Olympics, he helped the Greeks win their war against Persia. I just always understood that Greeks had were very arrogant people at the time and didn't like people of other cultures. And I do understand that there is Slavic propoganda, I just question why he keeps saying not to believe the slavic propoganda.
 
Naridill said:
Nemesis said:
1. God
2. Jesus
3. Satan

No idea about the rest, don't feel like coming up with anything, but I'm pretty sure that those I mentioned have been very influential.

It's just that only one of them actually exists, and he's about equally influential with Muhammad.

Well if even one of them EXISTS (currently) then it certainly must mean that all of them exist.

I am tired of people putting up their life heroes etc. as the most influential people, or people who made big advances in some kind of science etc. Honestly, those people are NOT influential, because it is my life-heroes that are the influential ones, and they made advances in the important fields of kick ass muzak, and pure-awesomeness.

1. ACDC {separate they are useless, together, they cause your ears to have an orgasm and make you unbearably horny (for them) regardless of gender or sexual preferences (Bon ACDC is better, but both please me)}

2. William Murderface (If you don't know who he is, then you risk being deported to Mexico and getting anally raped by a huge Tijuanan she-man)

3. Jesus, cause he is my best friend, and if you insult him I will castrate you and then nail you to a huge lower-case t, (kind of a family tradition when we take the law into our hands)

4. Ozzy Osbourne, cause his music is awesome, and he ate a ****ing bat. (I DON'T SEE ANYONE ELSE EATING MOTHER****ING BATS!!!)

5. I am in a stupor after thinking about all of these epic figures, so I must forfeit the dizzying power to bestow the 5th position to a person/persons/god of ____. I will allow you puny mortals to give me a recommendation as to who belongs up here, and if your answer pleases me I might decide to include it in my list, along with the granting of demi-godhood to whoever may provide said adequate god-person-s.


 
Bill Clinton. He taught the world that everyone cheats on their wife, even the president. He also took the economy of the united states to the highest point it ever was. However, Bush ruined it. We need Bill back.
 
Triosta said:
Bill Clinton. He taught the world that everyone cheats on their wife, even the president. He also took the economy of the united states to the highest point it ever was. However, Bush ruined it. We need Bill back.

Fail, his voice is too easily impersonated, and much of the uniqueness of him is gone.
 
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