Top Five most influential

Users who are viewing this thread

And something else... The tyrants established a Spartan garisson to the Acropolis and their army was defeated by the democratic forces in the fili =tribe(rather strange eh?) fortress north of Athens and their final defeat came in Pereas, the port near Athens In an unsuxesfull hilltop-charge.  :mrgreen:

That's history lads!
 
Cirdan said:
Emperor_Danny said:
Cirdan said:
And the Athenians violently overthrew the Thirty Tyrants, the Spartans didn't benevolently revoke the government they themselves had imposed.

Correct but they were a kind of vassals to the Persians that period (Just before the Hellenistic=Greek period of history, when Alexander the Great deafeated the persian empire and established his empire in the 4 corners of the earth!)
No they weren't. Treaties with the Persians actually at one point divided the world into Asia (supposedly Persian) and Europe (supposedly Athenian). You may be referring to the King's Peace where the King of Kings was able to act as a mediator and impose his peace on the warring Greek city-states, and which arguably represents the greatest extent of Persian influence in greece (excluding transient, war-time situations); but that was after the Thirty Tyrants.

Actually the persian before alexander destroyed them were something like muppet players! They were giving money (as alkiviades said) so as the bad to be continued...
 
Um, how was Leonidas influential again, because he died sayving Greece? I thought he died futily after holding the Persians for a couple days, then the Persians pushed into Greece and a whole war went on and eventually the Macedonians sided with the Greeks and beat the Persians. Just because he got heaps of honour and glory in his actions does not mean his actions were decicive.
For me I'd go with
1. Hitler (his actions resulted in the creation of the UN and a better understanding of equality, as well as a host of modern inventions or their direct for runners, necessity is the mother of invention)
2. Gaius Julius Caesar (formed the Roman Empire, one of the longest lasting of the Great Empires of Earth, much longer if you count after the divide between East and West and the Holy Roman Empire, which set up for adoption of laws in 1 place [Constantinople] to effect the rest of Europe)
3. Emperor Constantine (Christianity in Europe largely comes from Roman influence, which created a large continent spanning political group that destroyed practically all opposition, resulted in the Crusades which in turn brought many Eastern things West, math, wheel-barrows, perfume, trebuchet, etc.)
4. Attila the Hun (his entrance displaced tribes which displaced other which resulted in the Age of Migration which formed Europe as we know it today which formed North America)
5. Gengis Khan (huge empire which was eventually inherited by Russia and China)
 
Dear Lowlandlord.
''Macedonians sided with the Greeks and beat the Persians. Just because he got heaps of honour and glory in his actions does not mean his actions were decicive.''

What do you mean by this? Macedonians were Greeks (Their first ancestors came from Argos, a city north east of Sparta)
Like Spartans they were Dorians (A Greek tribe) (Athenians were Ionians and Thessalians were Aiolians other to greek tribes). The first King of the Macedonians was Pedikas = A name of a bird I don't know it's English name (I think it's Grouse)
Also their Kings had the surname Argiades= son of Argos the name Alexander=Protector of men (all theese in greek) and Philip=Filippos-greek (Filos ton ippon) =(Fiend of the horses) Fil-ippo(s) The mother of Alexander Olympias = Olympic =Olympiad... Reconsider it The ones you think they are Macedonians are Slavs speaking the Cyrilic language and came in that region in the Byzantine era (8th century) ACT- INFORM -REACT TO their Propaganda. YOU CAN!  :mrgreen:   
 
They were not considered Greeks until after Alexander took over Greece and said that he was Greek with his sword, Greek or not, the Greeks did not consider them as such, and they are definatly a Slavic people, is there something wrong with being Slavic? I'm Scottish (by descent) and I seem to recall our official Declaration of Independence, the Declaration of Arbroath, says we come from Russia so watch yourself. What I really meant was that Leonidas' actions didn't change alot and the Macedonians were one of several European groups (including a couple of Greek ciity-states) under Persian rule during the war, Alexander the First never much liked the Persians and helped the Greeks plenty with info before and his claim to descent from Hercules is probably accepted because of the help he provided. They eventually got their independence and then some civil war under Perdiccas.
 
Oh dear.  The Slavs had not migrated so far south during that period.  The classical Macedonians may not have been wholly Greek, but neither were they Slavs.  Slavic Macedonians today only have claim to the territories of northern Macedon.  They are newcomers, relatively speaking.  There is no reason to argue that the ancient Macedonians were Slavic in any way.
 
The classical Makedones were not considered Greek until Philip II (Alex the Great's dad, y'know) secured a place for them on the Aphyctyonic council. Even then their status as Greeks was somewhat debatable, but since they had an Amphyctyon, they were formally recognised as such. The Makedonian royal house claimed descent from Argos, not the entire people. Epigraphy indicates use of a Doric Greek dialect from before Philip II but it may not have been the sole or indeed the majority language. Certainly most 5th century sources explicitly mention the Makedones as being barbarians, and we all know that was rooted in linguistics.

As to the Slavs, they certainly weren't in the Balkans yet.
 
Friends, your views are very intersting
And there is nothing wrong of being slav Scotish friend.

Actually don't forget the writings of Stravon (ancient Greek Geographer) in men ellas kai i makedonia---> Macedonia is also Greece . Aristotle, Aristotelis in Greece was Macedonian, from Stageira in Chalkidiki, near my city, Thessalonica. I am glad to hear that you know about the real history about the slavs...

Also I would like to inform you about the Byzentine 'Macedonian dynasty' They all had greek names, they were greeks of cousre. Also the great greek philosopher Gorgias who was from Southern Italy (he was born in a greek colony- it's hard to remember exactly which, I think elia) Proposes Phillipos Phillip, Filos ton ippon (Friend of the horses) to be the Hegemon (=ruler) of the Greek League against the Persians.

And somethin more...
The citizenry was always Greek due to the fact their religion was the same, the spoke greek and Aristotelis is thought to be greek(=macedonian) and their main infantry army was called pezhetairoi (companion footmen) and was composed of farmers. Their cavalry was called hetairoi (companions) and was formed by the aristocrats. Also the name Argeades shows that they came from Argos.

Thank you for your seriousness on the matter...  :mrgreen:
 
The claim of Heraclides (Sons of Hercules) was common to the Spartans and Macedonians due to the fact they both were Dorians (a greek tribe came later in Greece in 1100 BC). That was so as to show the other Greeks that they were powerful like Hercules the half-God...  :cool:
 
Emperor_Danny said:
Friends, your views are very intersting
And there is nothing wrong of being slav Scotish friend.

Actually don't forget the writings of Stravon (ancient Greek Geographer) in men ellas kai i makedonia---> Macedonia is also Greece . Aristotle, Aristotelis in Greece was Macedonian, from Stageira in Chalkidiki, near my city, Thessalonica. I am glad to hear that you know about the real history about the slavs...

Also I would like to inform you about the Byzentine 'Macedonian dynasty' They all had greek names, they were greeks of cousre. Also the great greek philosopher Gorgias who was from Southern Italy (he was born in a greek colony- it's hard to remember exactly which, I think elia) Proposes Phillipos Phillip, Filos ton ippon (Friend of the horses) to be the Hegemon (=ruler) of the Greek League against the Persians.

And somethin more...
The citizenry was always Greek due to the fact their religion was the same, the spoke greek and Aristotelis is thought to be greek(=macedonian) and their main infantry army was called pezhetairoi (companion footmen) and was composed of farmers. Their cavalry was called hetairoi (companions) and was formed by the aristocrats. Also the name Argeades shows that they came from Argos.

Thank you for your seriousness on the matter...  :mrgreen:

They also used the Phalanx formation, first used by the city state Thiva (North west of Athens). Mind It  :mrgreen:
 
I really didn't want argue over Slav or not. Greek or not genetically, the Greeks in Greece didn't consider them Greeks. The Greeks at the time were also fairly arrogant (with decent reason, you don't see the Dacians pushing off the Persian army, or do anything artistic in the eyes of the Greeks). I know there are Japanese people who don't consider people who are 100% genetically Japanese but born in Manchuria (like the great Toshiro Mifune) Japanese, or second class Japanese at best. To me the Macedonian royalty always sounded kind of whiny, insisting they were Greek with most Greeks not paying attention. I think I recall (although my Alexander the Great info is a little rusty) that when Phillip died Alexander had to fight half of Greece to bring them back into line and one of the Greek things for fighting was being ruled by a "non-Greek".
 
Lowlandlord said:
eventually the Macedonians sided with the Greeks and beat the Persians.
In this particular case, the Greeks simply sunk the Persian navy and forced them to withdraw. It's just nobody has made a film about the Battle of Salamis, despite it probably being the most important battle the Greeks ever fought.

Lowlandlord said:
They were not considered Greeks until after Alexander took over Greece and said that he was Greek with his sword
Yes they were, they even get a mention in the Odyssey. The Greeks accepted and acknowledged the Macedonians as Greek, you just get the usual inter city insults being chucked around; Athenians for example would call them rustic goat shaggers. The whole "not Greek" thing applied only to Phillip (largely due to behaviour, not birth). Some Greek city states did take Phillip's death as an opportunity to return to the old city-state form of governance which Alexander put down, hence the whole not Greek thing.
 
Lowlandlord said:
I really didn't want argue over Slav or not. Greek or not genetically, the Greeks in Greece didn't consider them Greeks. The Greeks at the time were also fairly arrogant (with decent reason, you don't see the Dacians pushing off the Persian army, or do anything artistic in the eyes of the Greeks). I know there are Japanese people who don't consider people who are 100% genetically Japanese but born in Manchuria (like the great Toshiro Mifune) Japanese, or second class Japanese at best. To me the Macedonian royalty always sounded kind of whiny, insisting they were Greek with most Greeks not paying attention. I think I recall (although my Alexander the Great info is a little rusty) that when Phillip died Alexander had to fight half of Greece to bring them back into line and one of the Greek things for fighting was being ruled by a "non-Greek".

Actually the speaker Isokrates spoke of the Greek League, He told Philip that he was the only greek ruler able to unify greece.
A year after philip's death alexander send emissaries to Corinth and all the greeks agreed to continue the alliance show as ''Alexandros filipou kai oi ellines plin lakedemonion nikisan tous perses tous tin asian katikountas'' ---> Alexander son of Philip and the greeks withought the spartans (Lakedemonioi) won the persians, the ones that lived in asia.

:mrgreen:Mind it macedonia was always greek even if believe it or if you support the slavic view... :mrgreen:
 
Archonsod said:
Lowlandlord said:
eventually the Macedonians sided with the Greeks and beat the Persians.
In this particular case, the Greeks simply sunk the Persian navy and forced them to withdraw. It's just nobody has made a film about the Battle of Salamis, despite it probably being the most important battle the Greeks ever fought.

Lowlandlord said:
They were not considered Greeks until after Alexander took over Greece and said that he was Greek with his sword
Yes they were, they even get a mention in the Odyssey. The Greeks accepted and acknowledged the Macedonians as Greek, you just get the usual inter city insults being chucked around; Athenians for example would call them rustic goat shaggers. The whole "not Greek" thing applied only to Phillip (largely due to behaviour, not birth). Some Greek city states did take Phillip's death as an opportunity to return to the old city-state form of governance which Alexander put down, hence the whole not Greek thing.

I think you are right mate. The speaker Dimosthenis (=The one who has the power of the people Dimos+sthenos people+power) from athens believed that all the greeks including the macedonians should be united by the athenians due to the glory and the cultural importance of the city.  :cool:
 
Well, it's not a choice between Greek nationalism and Slavic nationalism.  Between that choice you'd find very little truth.

Certainly, the Macedonians were at some point Greek, but to say that they were "always Greek" may be stretching it.  A lot of peoples were Hellenized by the Greeks.  The Minoans did not speak Greek and had a wildly different culture than the Mycenaeans yet, through conquest and assimilation, the former become part of something called Greek.  The culture spread.  Through the culture, one became Greek.  But as Cirdan said, there's no reason to believe that Greek was the only language spoken among the Macedonians, who may indeed have been an assimilated people, at least in part.

And bringing up Byzantine history is wholly irrelevant.  We all know that Macedonia was Greek by the Middle Ages, but that's more than a thousand years after the classical Macedonians.
 
Asen said:
Well, it's not a choice between Greek nationalism and Slavic nationalism.  Between that choice you'd find very little truth.

Certainly, the Macedonians were at some point Greek, but to say that they were "always Greek" may be stretching it.  A lot of peoples were Hellenized by the Greeks.  The Minoans did not speak Greek and had a wildly different culture than the Mycenaeans yet, through conquest and assimilation, the former become part of something called Greek.  The culture spread.  Through the culture, one became Greek.  But as Cirdan said, there's no reason to believe that Greek was the only language spoken among the Macedonians, who may indeed have been an assimilated people, at least in part.

And bringing up Byzantine history is wholly irrelevant.  We all know that Macedonia was Greek by the Middle Ages, but that's more than a thousand years after the classical Macedonians.

Friend, one countries culture is made by it's citizens. Greece is a country with 96% Greeks also some slavs alvanites and Pomacks (ancient Thracian people, now converted to Islam)
and a small group of turks in rhodes and kos (2 islands).
Nationalism is a bad think. It is the sourse of ****ing dictatorships such as in the case of Mianmar- Virmania...
I do believe macedonia was always greek even thought before the world war II, Thessalonica was also inhabited by Jews and before the world was I by Bulgars and slavs. The greeks always lived in thessalonica and the villages in the macedonian countryside

That all folks...  :mrgreen:
 
Asen said:
Well, it's not a choice between Greek nationalism and Slavic nationalism.  Between that choice you'd find very little truth.

Certainly, the Macedonians were at some point Greek, but to say that they were "always Greek" may be stretching it.  A lot of peoples were Hellenized by the Greeks.  The Minoans did not speak Greek and had a wildly different culture than the Mycenaeans yet, through conquest and assimilation, the former become part of something called Greek.  The culture spread.  Through the culture, one became Greek.  But as Cirdan said, there's no reason to believe that Greek was the only language spoken among the Macedonians, who may indeed have been an assimilated people, at least in part.

And bringing up Byzantine history is wholly irrelevant.  We all know that Macedonia was Greek by the Middle Ages, but that's more than a thousand years after the classical Macedonians.

Also I would like to pose you some questions. I f as you said their kings -only- had their birthplace to be Argos why there wasn't open revolt against the, why the cities had Greek names (ex Thessalonica was the name od Kassandros's wife or in another opinion it was established so as to remember the victory of the allied Thessaloans against the Thebans ---> Thessalon+niki= Thessalon(n)iki----> Thessaloniki greek, Thessalonica English) (ex 2nd----> Aiges, ancient city near Vergina. Aiges with 'accent in Ai is the city' Aiges 'with accent in e --> aig(e)s are the sheep, goats' as the macedonians were told by the prophets at Delphi(a place were the greeks went when they had problems so as god apollo to tell them what to do) they have been told to set free a herb of goats and to build the city in the place theese gaots will stop)
Also if ,as you say they were not greeks were are theese people today? 
 
Emperor_Danny said:
Also if ,as you say they were not greeks were are theese people today? 

Assimilated.  Like the non-Greek Minoans.

Also, it is little use to use the name of cities to prove Greek origins to all surrounding peoples.  Many cities have been known by multiple names.  And, if Greek names are all that survive, that merely proves the ascendancy of their history.  I'm not disputing that Macedonia was Hellenized at some point, or even that groups of Macedonians were Greek in origin.  What I am saying is that the record is unclear and many people who are rational, intelligent, and honest fall on various sides of the issue.  Naturally, the Slavs say that Macedon was Slavic.  I dismiss that out of hand.  Naturally, Greeks claim that Macedon was always Greek.  Many of them say that about the peoples they assimilated around the Black Sea and in the Mediterranean (the Eteo-Cretans, the Eteo-Cypriots, the islander aborigines) as well, that the Minoans, even when they spoke no Greek and practiced their own religion, were Greek.

The truth is more complex, and likely the peoples of the Mediterranean and some of the peoples of ancient Anatolia (the Trojans even, potentially) stem from other, ancient civilizations which have long since vanished.  The Greek record has survived, but there is no reason to accept it without criticism.  After all, so many Greek cultural traits were taken from societies that were definitely non-Greek.  Dionysus from Asian ecstatic cults, Attis likewise (he was Phrygian), and the kouros/kore statuary borrowed from the Egyptian style.
 
Asen said:
The truth is more complex, and likely the peoples of the Mediterranean and some of the peoples of ancient Anatolia (the Trojans even, potentially) stem from other, ancient civilizations which have long since vanished.
Genetically the Macedonians are from the same European stock as the Helots and Iberians, while the ancient Greeks were sub-Saharan. There's little doubt the Macedonians belong to the original tribes who lived on the Greek penninsula. They most certainly weren't Slavic, the Slavic genetic history shows them spreading into Europe from the East (most likely of Euro-Indian origin), and the first historical records we have for Slavic tribes within Europe date to 6 AD. It's all in the Y chromosome :lol:
The Greek record has survived, but there is no reason to accept it without criticism.  After all, so many Greek cultural traits were taken from societies that were definitely non-Greek.  Dionysus from Asian ecstatic cults, Attis likewise (he was Phrygian), and the kouros/kore statuary borrowed from the Egyptian style.
It's a pointless argument though; no civilisation is entirely unique unless it is completely isolated from the rest of the world. All religions borrow, adopt and often assimilate ideas from other cultures (look at Christianity and Judaism for example) but this doesn't mean the religion is any less Greek. In fact, there's a pretty good argument that the Greek religious myths are actual allegory of historical events.
Probably more important from the civilisation point of view is that the ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greek, were culturally identical to the rest of Greece and adopted the laws and customs of the rest of Greece. In any sensible use of the word that would make them Greek in the same way that the various  tribes living in Britain at the same time were British.
 
Archonsod said:
Asen said:
The truth is more complex, and likely the peoples of the Mediterranean and some of the peoples of ancient Anatolia (the Trojans even, potentially) stem from other, ancient civilizations which have long since vanished.
Genetically the Macedonians are from the same European stock as the Helots and Iberians, while the ancient Greeks were sub-Saharan. There's little doubt the Macedonians belong to the original tribes who lived on the Greek penninsula. They most certainly weren't Slavic, the Slavic genetic history shows them spreading into Europe from the East (most likely of Euro-Indian origin), and the first historical records we have for Slavic tribes within Europe date to 6 AD. It's all in the Y chromosome :lol:
The Greek record has survived, but there is no reason to accept it without criticism.  After all, so many Greek cultural traits were taken from societies that were definitely non-Greek.  Dionysus from Asian ecstatic cults, Attis likewise (he was Phrygian), and the kouros/kore statuary borrowed from the Egyptian style.
It's a pointless argument though; no civilisation is entirely unique unless it is completely isolated from the rest of the world. All religions borrow, adopt and often assimilate ideas from other cultures (look at Christianity and Judaism for example) but this doesn't mean the religion is any less Greek. In fact, there's a pretty good argument that the Greek religious myths are actual allegory of historical events.
Probably more important from the civilisation point of view is that the ancient Macedonians considered themselves Greek, were culturally identical to the rest of Greece and adopted the laws and customs of the rest of Greece. In any sensible use of the word that would make them Greek in the same way that the various  tribes living in Britain at the same time were British.

No even the isolated cultures are not unique . as someone written Clear civilizations exist only in the filthiest minds. Though I can't accept the racism againt the hellenicity of macedonia.
 
Back
Top Bottom