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jknemesis

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First I want to say how great I think this game is. The gameplay is pretty damn innovative on the battlefield, especially with regards to the dynamics of horse mounted combat. Hopefully, this game will become increasingly popular as it gets better. I hopped on the Counter-Strike train early in its beta testing and was very pleased to see it grow into online phenomenon that it is today. I admit I haven't bought the entire game yet for performance reasons (http://taleworlds.com/v-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3358), but from what I've experienced, I still think this game has a bit of tweaking/rebalancing to go, and it would benefit from features that would prevent the game from getting boring, increasing replayability.

First, the minor tweaks/rebalances:

- LEADERSHIP and CHARISTMA ought to have a greater effect on the number of troop stacks a character can have, though the quantity of troops hireable need not change. Either this, or, it would be nice to see a party single stack dedicated to companions/heroes only (they could take up the same stack as your hero).

Why?

Because right now it is annoying to promote some of your party up to mercenary to find that you can't promote your mercenaries to hired blade due to the fact that you still have a few goddamn peasants who've decided to sit back and watch everyone else get slaughtered during all your battles. Simply put, it is somewhat of a chore to deal with the problem of not having slots to promote your units, and this discourages you from bringing heroes into your party and frustrates the experience.

If this game feature is in place to prevent low level characters from having high level mercenaries in their party, then low charisma/leadership ought to simply prevent henchmen from reaching a certain level.

Last, some major changes that might be considered:

-STATS/SKILLS:

The stats tree could use some more skills, more specifically, a subset of skills relating to those already in beta 0.643. (i.e. in just the way that Strength has power strike/throw and ironskin associated with it, weapon skill points and skills like horse riding could include specific battlefield abilities that would make the hero stand out a little more from your run-of-the-mill troops)

Why?

1) Straight combat gets a little boring after a while. The skillset offered right now is not dynamic enough, and not diverse enough to offer the great replayability that today's gaming industry demands as a minimal standard. Remember that this game isn't necessarily just competing for gamers' money, but also their time.

2) Heroes on the battlefield aren't a significiant presence, at least, up to level 6. They may never die, and they might be able to carry whatever items you give them, but they still don't do enough to compete with the 15 hired blades that you could have in your party instead.

So:

Consider spicing things up a little bit, not too much to make the game ridiculous like Diablo II, but give small abilities to the heroes that make it worth players' time to have NPC's in the party (and prevent the game from getting old too soon).

Add realistic battlefield skills that great soldiers of the middle ages might've had. These skills could be associated with the passive 'weapon proficiencies', with more skills available as characters gain levels:

Consider giving heroes:

~ the ability to execute an attack to bash through shields, or, with high enough level, splinter shields completely. Implement a damage multiplier that might do x3, x5, x10 damage to shields when an enemy blocks your attack and a small, but increasing, chance (3%, 5%,10%) of outright destroying a shield, a probability that could be modified based on the number of 'hit points' a shield has.

~ the ability to execute fast attacks in succession against an enemy

~ the ability to disarm or dismount targets with specific polarms (not spears necessarily, but bills/bec-de-corbin/halberd type weapons which have parts that are specifically meant for unhorsing or dismounting enemies.

~ more options for giving orders as their tactics / leadership levels go up. Enable them to order specifically armed groups (archers, calvarymen, footsoldiers) to attack individually in waves, or enable heroes to order their troops to fight back to back when they are outnumbered or order flanking attacks against multiple sides of a group of enemies when the opportunity presents itself.

- DIFFERENT UNIT TYPES

So far I've only seen low level foot soldiers get promoted to mounted soldiers and then get promoted to better mounted soldiers. It would be nice to have the ability to select a basic weapon 'class' when you promote basic peasant/townsperson units, giving them, say, a crossbow. Then that crossbow man would become a better crossbow man, then perhaps a mounted crossbowman. Or, somewhere along the way, there could be an option to promote that better crossbow man to just an even better one, instead of forcing him onto a horse.

This suggestion might already be in the works, but it seemed like a good idea, since this also leads into my next suggestion.

- ORGANIZED REGIMENTS & PRE-BATTLE TACTICS

It would be nice if characters could steadily improve their tactics skill and gain, well, tactics. I was thinking it would be nice if players could organize their troops into squads, determine who would be initially in battle and who would come later as reinforcements.

Medieval troops didn't just charge forward or follow their commander around on the battlefield or sit still and wait for the enemy to come to them. They would have battle plans in their heads and be organized into small regiments with soldier units that had complementary weapons.

For instance, Swiss mercenaries often fought in tight pikeman phalanxes with crossbowmen at the center. The pikemen would fend off cavalry and footsoldiers with less reach, while crossbowmen would pick off enemies that approached from farther away. Since crossbowmen were bane of medieval battlefields during small scale feudal battles, this tactic forced enemies to deal with the crossbowmen, even when having to confront a bristle of pikes on the way. And swiss mercenaries became reknowned for this.

If players could choose specific stacks and place them together, they could experiment with weapon combinations and such. Archers could pair up with soldiers who use a large shield and longsword.

Also, troop movements and strategy could be determined before battle and changed during the battle if things didn't go as planned. Players could order a flanking tactic before battle, sending in horse archers behind the enemy while heavy cavalry wait for the enemy to turn their backs and then charge with lances. Or players could order the standard hail of archer arrows, followed by infantry and then cavalry, but make things interesting by taking a small group of horsemen around to the side to smash the enemy.

~~

I haven't been able to finish this list yet, but I'll add from what I had in mind as time allows.
 
no, no, no and no...
play beyond l6...
The heroes do become more useful as time goes on... with a little management...
In the game i'm currently playing I gave borcha a bow and focused on riding and horse archer skills... He runs around a pack of enemy and kicks arse with his bow...

You can't promote troops, wait till they are all promotable so yuo can do em all at once, or sack the peasants.. they are cheap enough...

games that give you the dilema of choice are good in my opinion.. just like in real life where you can't have everything you want...
 
Yeah, by the time you hit level 25 or 30, you're pretty much godlike. You can solo entire groups of dark knights with very little trouble.

The skillset offered right now is not dynamic enough, and not diverse enough to offer the great replayability that today's gaming industry demands as a minimal standard.

First off, i think this game has far more replayability than those considered to be "up to gaming industry standards". Look at steaming piles of crap like Doom3 and Farcry. They're completely linear and have no replay value whatsoever(starting a new game is exactly 100% like the previous session)...but are considered to be top notch. But i do agree with you partially, there needs to be more rewards for killing parties(like losing an army actually hurts the corresponding nation and things like that). However, i feel the skillset is decent as is, but it could be improved.

more options for giving orders as their tactics / leadership levels go up.

More leadership commands has been suggest numerous times, and is most likely in the works.

Simply put, it is somewhat of a chore to deal with the problem of not having slots to promote your units, and this discourages you from bringing heroes into your party and frustrates the experience.

I agree with that point, but not your solution. As has been sugested before, i think you should be able to "store/garrison" troops somewhere. You should still have to decide what units to take with you, but you shouldn't have to have all troops under your command with you at all times. And sacraficing Borcha or Marnid to take some of the load off just isn't worth it IMO. Although i would like to see your "generals" take up a different set of slots than your regular troops.
 
THe diffent unit type part, Its already done. Get some Swadian or Vagir pesants, if you upgrade them right you can go from Pesant to Knight as a max lvl, OR to Sharpshooter. The sharpshooter is a foot atcher with a bow and relitivly good melee. the knight is... well a knight.

Gussesing that your just playing the "demo" up to lvl 6.
You havent seen the whole game so some of the comments are/seem wrong.

The party Stacks thing you mentioed. I find no problem with it. I think Blocking the player from getting better men is wrong, Why cant he have better equpped and possibly stonger men than him? Your chacter might be the brains, not the brawn.
If i ever get a problem with the stack amout ill dropp the weakest men in favor of the better, new men. But yes, heros could have there own stack. but since atm there are only two its not so big a problem (for me anyway).

The hero abilitys, ok, they have a bit of merit. But some are generic to all troops. Any pesant with a stick-with-a-nail-in-it can hook a man off a horse if hes lucky

As to the battle tactics. The fights are a little too small for Mixed unit tactics right now. especialy if you have only fought up to lvl 6. ATM you only get around 30 men on one battle feild at a time. most of the time you might only have 2 horses in the fight, ordering a flanking charge on 6 river pirates wont have quite the same effect as full blown warfare. If the game allows for much lager numbers on men of the feild then yes, you would need more contoll of your rabble. but at the moment the controls you have now are fine. battle plans seem a little over kill
 
jknemesis said:
...it would be nice to see a party single stack dedicated to companions/heroes only (they could take up the same stack as your hero).

I don't see why not. If anything, having lieutenants should increase your maximum party size..

jknemesis said:
Because right now it is annoying [...] it is somewhat of a chore to deal with the problem of not having slots to promote your units, and this discourages you from bringing heroes into your party and frustrates the experience.

I strongly agree. This kind of party management isn't fun, it's just irritating, and unnecessarily complex. To be frank, I don't see why upgrading one peasant to militia would so completely upset your whole war party and their brilliantly detailed and coordinated battlefield maneuvers ("CHARGE! No, wait, STAY HERE!" :wink:) that it simple can't be done without better leadership. It sucks having to disband a bunch of soldiers because you need wiggle room to upgrade other troops. ("I'm sorry, all you militia people, you know we really could use you on the field, but Bob here really wants to become a sharpshooter, so..")

I think the slots should be maxed out from the start, so you'd rarely (if ever) need to worry about having too many kinds of troops. The restrictions make some kind of sense for prisoners, I suppose. Not that handling prisoners is terribly useful later in the game..

If you really want these kinds of restrictions, they should be faction dependant. Swadians shouldn't fight well with vaegir soldiers, bandits wouldn't be comfortable with manhunters and so on. A "pure" party should be more efficient.
Hiring swadians into your army when you're a vaegir famous for ambushing swadian caravans is b******t anyway.

jknemesis said:
If this game feature is in place to prevent low level characters from having high level mercenaries in their party, then low charisma/leadership ought to simply prevent henchmen from reaching a certain level.

Very good idea, actually. A weak little squire in leather armor shouldn't be able to command the respect and loyalty of fully trained knights.

As for hero abilities, I don't think it's needed. A high level character kicks all kinds of arse with little trouble. Even Borcha is dangerous after a while.

jknemesis said:
~ more options for giving orders as their tactics / leadership levels go up. Enable them to order specifically armed groups (archers, calvarymen, footsoldiers) to attack individually in waves, or enable heroes to order their troops to fight back to back when they are outnumbered or order flanking attacks against multiple sides of a group of enemies when the opportunity presents itself.

I agree, this would be cool. To balance it, however, you'd have to seriously spice up the enemy AI to coordinate themselves intelligently (better trained enemies more so, logically), to change strategy depending on your actions and so on. Might be very difficult.
 
Personally, i think jknemesis has got valid points. I find that though M&B has got quite a long list of skills, we may need more exotic skills. Like shield breaking, lunge, stealth, repostle, roll out of the way... Yah, more skills to make the character look more than a board with hands.

the ability to execute fast attacks in succession against an enemy

Yes. This is what i have been contemplating. Anyone played LotR: Return of the king? The game is something like M&B, but the difference is that you can pull off combos that. The problem about deadly mobs can be solved using a series of attacks.

The issue on tactics have been discussed for quite some time. I hope the devs improve it.
 
MMad said:
jknemesis said:
Because right now it is annoying [...] it is somewhat of a chore to deal with the problem of not having slots to promote your units, and this discourages you from bringing heroes into your party and frustrates the experience.

I strongly agree. This kind of party management isn't fun, it's just irritating, and unnecessarily complex. To be frank, I don't see why upgrading one peasant to militia would so completely upset your whole war party and their brilliantly detailed and coordinated battlefield maneuvers ("CHARGE! No, wait, STAY HERE!" :wink:) that it simple can't be done without better leadership. It sucks having to disband a bunch of soldiers because you need wiggle room to upgrade other troops. ("I'm sorry, all you militia people, you know we really could use you on the field, but Bob here really wants to become a sharpshooter, so..")

It's good to see that some people agree with what I have to say. For a sec there, I was worried that these forums were filled with naysayers who would be happy with whatever they were given. Not that there's anything terribly wrong with that, but with the buzz out there right now about this game, I think we have something fantastic on our hands. The game just needs tweaking. That's all.
 
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