I have a favor to ask to anyone willing to answer. (Troop Related)

Edit: Unable to convey the question properly and ended up being threatening/insulting, please move on XD

Hi! I'm planning to re-balance my private version of Perisno see "What is the formula for damage calculation?" topic. Archery is OP in general not only for redwood, this is because of the way base damage is multiplied with proficiencies and power draw. The crossbow formula final damage is only the crossbow + bolt damage. To make things worst, the difference between the protection (against missiles) offered  by armors rated 40 and 60, is not big enough to correctly represent the armor compositions ex.  mail armor vs high carbon steel milanese armor.
Currently I'm trying to finalize my warband damage calculator, so I can fine tweak what I mentioned in the same topic! I will post a link to the calc (maybe this week) in that topic, if I'm allowed by the dev's, after that I'll continue with the tweaking of items and troops!

raz8020 said:

Hi! I'm planning to re-balance my private version of Perisno see "What is the formula for damage calculation?" topic. Archery is OP in general not only for redwood, this is because of the way base damage is multiplied with proficiencies and power draw. The crossbow formula final damage is only the crossbow + bolt damage. To make things worst, the difference between the protection (against missiles) offered  by armors rated 40 and 60, is not big enough to correctly represent the armor compositions ex.  mail armor vs high carbon steel milanese armor.
Currently I'm trying to finalize my warband damage calculator, so I can fine tweak what I mentioned in the same topic! I will post a link to the calc (maybe this week) in that topic, if I'm allowed by the dev's, after that I'll continue with the tweaking of items and troops!

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  It turns out the Warband engine removes much of this from scripting control.

  Crossbows I tried to improve by setting them able to pierce shields, which really affects wooden shields only, but only for crossbows heavier than light crossbow and when using steel bolts.

  Archery affected by power draw is an issue; the real danger from elves isn't their high weapons skill, but the high power draw these units typically get.  This was one motivation for putting an improved troop viewer in Pho v20r4; in Perisno .74/.75 you should still be able to see the power draw skill in the troop information under troop tree display.  Notice its the Elf power draw being 8 that makes elves really OP, although they don't miss so much either.

  Of grater interest to me is how changes to module.ini settings for THESE lines changes the damage:
============
armor_soak_factor_against_cut      = 0.9
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.75            try  0.85 here
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt    = 0.7                      0.82  here    may as well make blunt less OP

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut      = 1.1
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.75      set this to  1.33    and write me how you feel it changed
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt    = 0.70      set this to  0.85

#missiles with damage > shield_penetration_offset + shield_penetration_factor * shield
#will penetrate.

shield_penetration_offset = 30.0        try 25
shield_penetration_factor = 3.0        try  2.0    few bows can penetrate shield currently, only 2 I think

#setting speed_power to 2.0 makes damage scale with the square of missile's speed.
# you can set it to 1.0 to make it scale linearly as it was before.
missile_damage_speed_power = 1.8
melee_damage_speed_power = 2.0
==============

  simply text edit those with .15 less and more and measure damage between play sessions.  You probably have to exit all the way out as  module.ini and for that matter the map are read once per session only on start of the mod, and are not updated dynamically.

  You probably want to up the armor soak and armor reductions versus pierce, seeing as how armor_reduction allows > 1.0 parameters, try  1.33 for pierce and write me how that changes your opinion of archers.

  You might also decrease the weapons velocity "shoot_speed" of bows but not crossbows and see if that doesn't change the lure of bows over crossbows.  Try setting them from the current 50-70 to say 35-49 for velocity for bows while leaving the crossbows at their current levels , and see how that changes a seige.

  I don't have the time to do this, but I'd appreciate it if you did, since you seem to have the interest already.

  So far as source code changes:
    Perisno actually doesnt modify any of the native calculations.  I added Rigale dodge in mission_triggers.py, just search for  Dodge    if you have the source (and not many people do, hopefully).
Otherwise the damage numbers are indirectly modified by velocity, which I set earlier, and the module.ini settings, and otherwise deep within the game engine outside developer control.  I can shed damage by ironflesh and dodge from athletics but the base damage is done outside the scripting system.

  - GS

Currently the factions that need review are Maccavia, Hakkon and Falcon. Drahara and Maccavia are extremely weak, while as Falcon is extremely overpowered. There is a reason for blunt weapons not to surpass 28 swing damage in Prophesy of Pendor.

Elvarie used to be imbalanced enough to obliterate a Falcon charge in certain terrains (0.73). Nowadays your infantry may actually reach them, given that the AI is set to inmediatly charge at the beginning of the fight. The only part where Elvarie still is very strong is defending towns/castles, but that'll happen with any faction that relies exclusively on range weapons. You can't balance them properly in that regard, they'll either be extremely weak or extremely powerful.

gsanders said:

  It turns out the Warband engine removes much of this from scripting control.

  Crossbows I tried to improve by setting them able to pierce shields, which really affects wooden shields only, but only for crossbows heavier than light crossbow and when using steel bolts.

  Archery affected by power draw is an issue; the real danger from elves isn't their high weapons skill, but the high power draw these units typically get.  This was one motivation for putting an improved troop viewer in Pho v20r4; in Perisno .74/.75 you should still be able to see the power draw skill in the troop information under troop tree display.  Notice its the Elf power draw being 8 that makes elves really OP, although they don't miss so much either.

  Of grater interest to me is how changes to module.ini settings for THESE lines changes the damage:
============
armor_soak_factor_against_cut      = 0.9
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce    = 0.75            try  0.85 here
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt    = 0.7                      0.82  here    may as well make blunt less OP

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut      = 1.1
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce    = 0.75      set this to  1.33    and write me how you feel it changed
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt    = 0.70      set this to  0.85

#missiles with damage > shield_penetration_offset + shield_penetration_factor * shield
#will penetrate.

shield_penetration_offset = 30.0        try 25
shield_penetration_factor = 3.0        try  2.0    few bows can penetrate shield currently, only 2 I think

#setting speed_power to 2.0 makes damage scale with the square of missile's speed.
# you can set it to 1.0 to make it scale linearly as it was before.
missile_damage_speed_power = 1.8
melee_damage_speed_power = 2.0
==============

  simply text edit those with .15 less and more and measure damage between play sessions.  You probably have to exit all the way out as  module.ini and for that matter the map are read once per session only on start of the mod, and are not updated dynamically.

  You probably want to up the armor soak and armor reductions versus pierce, seeing as how armor_reduction allows > 1.0 parameters, try  1.33 for pierce and write me how that changes your opinion of archers.

  You might also decrease the weapons velocity "shoot_speed" of bows but not crossbows and see if that doesn't change the lure of bows over crossbows.  Try setting them from the current 50-70 to say 35-49 for velocity for bows while leaving the crossbows at their current levels , and see how that changes a seige.

  I don't have the time to do this, but I'd appreciate it if you did, since you seem to have the interest already.

  So far as source code changes:
    Perisno actually doesnt modify any of the native calculations.  I added Rigale dodge in mission_triggers.py, just search for  Dodge    if you have the source (and not many people do, hopefully).
Otherwise the damage numbers are indirectly modified by velocity, which I set earlier, and the module.ini settings, and otherwise deep within the game engine outside developer control.  I can shed damage by ironflesh and dodge from athletics but the base damage is done outside the scripting system.

  - GS

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The calc is almost finished I just need to simplify some formulas since some of them are up to 10 columns long for one cell. After that I think you will have an answer to how those lines affect the overall damage! I tested bows and throwing axes with edited shoot speed, and didn't make a difference on final damage, there is also a relation between how high the base damage is and the armor value, and it affects the final absolute max/min damage to about 1-2%!

Yber said:

Currently the factions that need review are Maccavia, Hakkon and Falcon. Drahara and Maccavia are extremely weak, while as Falcon is extremely overpowered. There is a reason for blunt weapons not to surpass 28 swing damage in Prophesy of Pendor.

Elvarie used to be imbalanced enough to obliterate a Falcon charge in certain terrains (0.73). Nowadays your infantry may actually reach them, given that the AI is set to inmediatly charge at the beginning of the fight. The only part where Elvarie still is very strong is defending towns/castles, but that'll happen with any faction that relies exclusively on range weapons. You can't balance them properly in that regard, they'll either be extremely weak or extremely powerful.

Click to expand...

This "You can't balance them properly in that regard, they'll either be extremely weak or extremely powerful." is true, except I'm planning to fully re balance all (or almost all) troops and this means to not have nations that are focused exclusively on ranged or melee.
All of this work might take months to finish since I'm only a one person army!

You can do a test with Sword Of Damocles. Antarians (which have shieldless infantry) obliterate the archer-only faction (dark green, can't remember the name).

Prophesy of pendor is probably the mod that has the best balance in the game, and it's based on weapon proficiencies, not weapons. If you compare the armor values with that of perisno's, you'll see that the PoP units have x2 times the proficiency, and 3/4-2/4 of the armor/damage values.

Just a heads up though.

gsanders said:

Spoiler

Threatening us on Steam doesn't make changes happen faster.

  Silver did in fact tone down Elves, perhaps too much, for .74/.75
  The problem when you accuse "us Devs" of something, be it .8 development (whatever that is) or perhaps my own test bed "Phosphor", is you don't really know what we do (well, except Phosphor I write hourly what I'm doing, but on another forum).
Of the 16 or so "developers" Perisno has, most of them do very narrowly focused things, usually not related to code.  More than half do artwork or something else besides coding, and of the coders they may or may not turn in one line of code all month.

  Anything I write is put into Phosphor first, for a test, and so far noone is interested in seeing it in Perisno so I continue putting things in Phosphor as it is more active - in terms of lines of code per month.  I answer "support" questions here daily and otherwise crying in forum doesnt motivate me to write something the other 15 devs reject any faster.  The answer: it got done for Pho, it might get addressed here, or it may wait for the not quite mythical .8 (.8 does exist, I've seen it, but its something the other 15 devs are working on, at whatever pace they do when its summer break and there is no school.)

  Elves were gimped at least 25% over their February settings.  In my opinion, what is more of concern is the lack of 2 hand skill when their cavalry and rangers are issued 2 hand weapons.  In any case, if you next offer to hold your breath and turn blue if we don't immediately kick down a patch to lower elves weapons proficiency, don't say I made you do it.

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oh god no, please dont take it as a threat.

first and foremost id like make an apology to everyone involved in the perisno dev. if my post or comments, present or past, were offensive or in any way pointed to be a threat. My most sincere apologies.

i feel bad having to say this, specially to you Gs, since youve been the one answering all my dumb questions and requests for dev progress. Again, im sorry.

The post on Steam is nothing more than a Rant of my inner kid, and as i posted in the thread, its prolly because its the only thing i can complain on.

youre right, i dont have a clue of what you guys do when developing the mod, but i do undestand it takes time and everything/anything you change has to be double and triple checked in order to be able to move to the next thing. I certainly know most, if not all, of you do this in your free time after work and RL. So please dont take it as a "i want .8 NAO!" thing.

what i meant with my post was just a way to change the way the proficiencies were so i could enjoy fighting the elves more, nothing more nothing less. No jabs or suckerpunches meant in my post.


As i always said, i dont play M&B , i play Perisno. And im quite grateful that you guys got together and made this happen.

  I tend to get irritable, but today I was thinking about other things.  Namely my bank had threatened to seize my life savings, which isn't much but came from the death of my parents, and in part is paying me an allowance to work on Perisno/Phosphor/other stuff before I too die, hopefully in 5-15 years and not a day sooner.  I am by far the oldest person in the group and the hardest to control.  By the way today the problem was resolved and all is well again.  Unexpected, that.

  So anyway, the process became one of inquiry and so far we/I/raz8020/Yber  collectively brainstormed on this and I will try some deeper fixes
for Phosphor v20r5.  If you don't mind, you could try them and tell me what you think, after I make a private link and PM you.  I'd let anyone try it, but
Pho v20r4 is maybe the first time it's been ready for "public" and Fruitn found maybe 6 issues I should trim up/clean up for r5 "soon".  I still haven't put in my goals for the month, but I'll agree that cleaning up and balancing are two 'artistic" aspects that are long overdue.  I've really been pushing on coding because I felt not many were up to it, but artistic balancing nearly anyone could do -- or so I thought. 

  Look, I've bit just about everyone here in my 8 months - from the top down, none were spared.  That's why at various times I've been everything from Sir Percival the keeper of the Grail, ... to Grendel itself.  I've passed blood coding here in November, coughed and wheezed to where I couldn't breathe, collapsed, and enjoyed some of the best days of my last 10 years coding here.  And if anything my health is better than when I started -- there's no ONE problem, just a dozen stages of neglect and this pressure to do SOMETHING right while I still can.  I can't remember diddly squat anymore -- 2 minutes into coding I forgot the variable name I need.  But I am getting fairly skilled at work arounds, getting things going, and writing myself reminders.  I think stuff will work, "soon" (TM).  You understand "soon" is trademarked as joke right?  Every coder, especially beginners, say "soon" because they have NO IDEA how much real work to estimate, and their estimates are way off.  I'm getting fairly accurate at estimating dev time,  so hopefully "soon" will mean something.

  I'm privileged and lucky that Michadr, Robin, and others even ALLOWED me to work with them, sharing their code, and coincidentally giving me space to slay one dragon that I reckoned was keeping the other devs away (the race / gender bug, which was one insight that needed 3300 lines or so of changes, but the change was dirt simple -- just everywhere it was needed, so everyone else gave up too soon even when they had the right fix...

  So in a way I'm thankful you asked, even if you had to suffer for it.  You mentioned something so obvious it was pushed aside.  I'll ALWAYS have some project that needs doing quickly -- some layer I think wasn't built.  But the gorilla in the room needs some attention too, or all the little details mean nothing, no matter how important they'd be "someday".  As Dr Zhivago said in the 1965 movie (the remake was not the worth of the original) "somebody needs to keep the patient alive while you cut out the tumors of injustice".  Zhivago means "living ness", very loosely translated.  Perisno is a LIVING project; and we need to remember to keep it breathing between revs.  That was YOUR value, today.

  - GS

gsanders said:

SNIP

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id love to test phosphor, that is, when you feel its ready to be tested.

Also, best of luck man!