Companions analysis / main character builds

sher said:

Maybe this post will help:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,255110.msg7954779.html#msg7954779

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Thanks sher, great guide. This is my favorite part, just hilarious:


I still don't fully understand the looting system, in terms of party sizes... Also, how many companions do you run with? If you take 10+ is it really worth giving up 30 shares of loot, for a mediocre fighter?

thermocline said:

This is my favorite part, just hilarious:

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Thanks

thermocline said:

I still don't fully understand the looting system, in terms of party sizes... Also, how many companions do you run with? If you take 10+ is it really worth giving up 30 shares of loot, for a mediocre fighter?

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I use all companions I can have. 11 constant companions and some temporary. I see no point in worrying about greater share of companions in loot. Usually loot means only money and not so great in comparison with prisoners. There are problems with selling very expensive loot also. There are too few warbands worthy of hunting for specific loot and there are no means to make your companions disappear quickly and then reappear exactly when you need them back, so... Usually you farm only noldor for their items and to defeat them you need 10-20 soldiers less then their quantity to get best loot that means 40-70 party size. You can somewhat increase your share of loot by replacing companions with troops but will you notice huge difference? There can be a significant difference if you'll hunt smaller parties with less companions or without them because party size is smaller but their loot is just expensive and not something that you need as items. You'll get your Runed Bastard Swords and Noldor Composite Bows from Rouge Knights and heretics eventually because you will defeat multiple parties, many of them throughout the game and you'll need only limited amount of such items. So usually it's just not worth all the troubles to replace companions, slowing their development, losing potential prisoners.

And companions are not mediocre fighters. IMO this premise is wrong if you use default max battlesize. If you always field all your party in only one combat round then they can be compared to regular troops but with best possible equipment and proper setups and they are immortal => you can "sacrifice" them instead of your troops to take main hit.

Hmm, I spent some time reading and re-reading your companions guide and now I have several questions:

1) The 3 main reasons why companions are still competitive with top-end troops (HAs, Doomguides, Shadow Legion) is that they can get decent WPF but much better equipment, and they're immortal, and they can provide training. Is this right?

2) Does companions being as good as top-end troops depend on you using a 150 or smaller battlesize? Because it's only when you have multiple combat rounds that companion immortality really influences a battle, and that's where First Aid makes a big difference too. Is this right? Or are you using companions mainly to tank/cannon fodder for your precious troops like HAs and Doomguides?

3) How do you fight Noldors for loot? What troops do you use? Because if you want to autocalc them with zerks/glads, you need a larger party size. Correct?

4) What's the best place to farm Rogue Knights for loot? Is it correct that RKs and Noldors are the only parties worth farming for loot?

5) If you're not going to use Riva/Kassim for anything else, is it worth using one of them as a PT/PD trainer and the other as the Ath/Shield trainer? Rayne is not a good agility trainer because he can't max Agi until level 35.

6) Can companions use multiple stacks of missile weapons? Like, can you give Leth a Sapphire Bow and 3x large bags of arrows, and he'll get 126 shots? Wanted to confirm this, because I read somewhere that CKOs can't use multiple stacks of missile weapons.

7) How do you get lordly/masterwork etc gear? If companions reaching full potential depends on this, then you need to prioritize finding top-end equipment. Do you loot it, or do you buy it in stores?

Is it worth giving companions hafted blades? I think they are the only polearms with a swing on horseback.

9) How good is it to have First Aid on your main vs. on Ansen? You can start with 4 in FA, so with 1 point of investment, you can get to 5, for a +2 to Ansen's score. That gives 10+2 total, or 70% of damage healed. Investing 5 more points on your main just takes it from 70% to 80%. Or is it that you want it on your main, because if Ansen gets knocked unconscious, you're SOL? I am also wondering how often you fight battles with multiple rounds. Usually I only fight multiple rounds in sieges (battlesize 350), and that's only because my archers run out of arrows on offense.

10) Is it worth grinding out multiple knighthood order questlines to get multiple suits of lordly armor and extra arbalests, purely to gear up your companions?

11) Is it worth giving mounts to pure archer companions that won't hit riding 6 in a reasonable timeframe? E.g., Diev, Lethaldiran?

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It seems to me that you are right, sher, and I'm really underestimating companions. The right way to think about a companion is more akin to the HA vs. Rogue Knight debate, where RKs are clearly inferior stat-wise but they make up for it with top-end gear. A companion is like a Rogue Knight on steroids, with better equipment and better skills.

Also, it seems to me that if you want to use combat/trainer companions, the best guys are the knights (since they have 400+ WPF and Riding 7) as mounted crossbowmen, and Ediz/Kaverra/Julia/Adonja/Frederick as mounted archers. This latter group can all hit 18 Str/30 Agi around level 30. At this level they would be comparable to Doomguides who can't die, with 20-30% less damage but significantly better armor, charging/knockdown potential and survivability.

Boadice/Diev/Rayne/Kassim/Riva/Leslie are significantly worse, because it takes them a lot longer to get their stats up to competitive levels.

thermocline said:

Hmm, I spent some time reading and re-reading your companions guide and now I have several questions:

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1. Right, but they're not competing with regular troops - they're just different. You can't replace training with anything else.

2. With multiple battle rounds your companions are the staple of your army - they multiply your forces with guaranteed strong troops with best equipment every round - you just can't compare such units with regular troops, they're incomparable.

3. I do not autocalc noldors. The only occasion when I can do that is when I need to capture noldor lord badly to unlock equipment for CKO and do not want to play very long battle to let him get away to replay it again. I never use save/load to capture unique spawns but sometimes these lords are just not spawning for a VERY long time so in such cases I feel myself OK to unlock equipment (horse). Noldors are weak against armored shielded cavalry if player know how to use it right against them - you just need to break their tactics, nothing more. It's pretty obvious IMO, though I'll include description in guide when I'll arrive there. If it's still mystery to you then I can give quick description under spoiler. Usually I use CKO knights for this to capture all noldors with minimal casualties and it's the only way I use these knights because they're too powerful for anything else. But any knights with shields will be fine just not in so small number and you'll kill many noldors instead of capturing them all.

4. In forests between Marleon, Laria, Sarleon. Actually main reason to farm them is Rouge Squire prisoners but loot is good also. The only premium equipment worthy of hunt IMO are Doom Mace (three seers patrols, very rare), Noldor Composite Bow (Noldors, Rouge Knights), Runed Bastard Sword (Rouge Knights, Heretic Magnuses). All other stuff you can get from lords armies - you usually will fight them while heavily outnumbered to get max renown so loot will be good without efforts.

5. I use general approach for all of them. My companions are much higher in levels than you described (it was your first game so no big deal). Jocelyn will train CKO very long time so there's no rush to ruin development of other companions - you don't need those 10s everywhere ASAP, with right equipment CKO knights will be overpowered already with just Jocelyn stats. The only thing they need is high one handed pro, Doom Mace, shield and good fast horse.

6. I don't know since it will reduce their survivability. Usually Alyssa has two packs of throwing something but I do not babysit her to count her shots. Are you really sure they will survive such a long fight to spend 2 quivers without a shield?

7. Shops in selected towns, KO rewards. You don't need lordly/masterwork items to get your companions going.

8. Hafted blades are too long and not universal weapons.

9. It's very hard to knock out smart lancer with right equipment. Usually they can get me only if I do some reckless stunts to save my troops or lost concentration after long play and forget to memorize every time where their spawn point is to be swarmed by troops out of the air or where the front is to not be caught alone deep behind enemy lines. Large battlesize breaks intended game mechanics with combat rounds so it can be entirely different game where certain skills are different. With default battlesize 150 and companions FA is important skill that is better to be developed by PC.

10. There is information about it in my guide ("Under construction" still may contain information). Grind of any kind is not worth it - it's better to play when it's fun. Multiple orders are fine since there are many different troops and fighting only with order troops is interesting for many orders. But you can save/load for multiple lordly armors you like of certain order - much lesser fun but you'll get them as uniform for companions, though it's really not so entertaining as multiple KOs.

11. Absolutely. Good horse is really needed for fast development and survivability.

thermocline said:

It seems to me that you are right, sher, and I'm really underestimating companions. The right way to think about a companion is more akin to the HA vs. Rogue Knight debate, where RKs are clearly inferior stat-wise but they make up for it with top-end gear. A companion is like a Rogue Knight on steroids, with better equipment and better skills.

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Don't worry - it's a common mistake of new players to "analyse" troops by stats and skills but without equipment and other factors. It's meaningless but widespread.

And one the biggest misunderstandings is the power of the trainer and weapon master skill on companions because they fail to notice that 150 wp is the first important treshold for any companion to gain, don´t understand how WM works, and haven´t realized the power to masstrain huge armies within days because they didn´t  need to so yet.

Wp 150 will enable them to become useful. Don´t expect a compansy with less to kill much, though archery will be the exception - they´ll start hitting noticeably better.

Wp 250 will make them comparabable to most high level troopers proficiency wise and your companions should start to roll in the kills from now on - with the proper equipment.

I rarely buy anything for them in shops as I loot well enough off anything else and can´t see the profits of equipping everyone in expensive masterwork or lordly items but I regularily purchase hunter class horses and heavy lances or exceptional gear showing up in shops.

Wether or not you  equip a NPCompanys with a horse or not is up to you. Generally speaking, a horse hugely upgrades your npc because he gets a meatshield. And with decent enough polearms skill and at least a hunter horse he´ll be able to inflict some damage on your opponents.

Dismounted NPC´s equipped as ranged units with a good dose of melee on the other hand, are far more easily managed than your cavalry companions.

So it does not really matter on how good your companion is at archery, but far more important how much horse archery he has. If he´s got decent PD, shooting skills and HA, go for the horse.

The only thing you need to wage is which horse - coursers are too fast and they´ll usually bumcharge into the hostile infantry cluster. Heavy warhorses are too slow and they´ll never catch up with anything. So you need to pick that one careful.

Finally, what you need to realize is that your companions need time to develop. And as such, you´ll simply switch over gear and equipment as you acquire it, and pretty much like younger siblings inherit the clothing of their older ones you´ll switch gear through your companions.

Sher has already given a very good response to your questions, I´d just wanted to add a few things he missed.

noosers said:

And one the biggest misunderstandings is the power of the trainer and weapon master skill on companions because they fail to notice that 150 wp is the first important treshold for any companion to gain, don´t understand how WM works, and haven´t realized the power to masstrain huge armies within days because they didn´t  need to so yet.

Wp 150 will enable them to become useful. Don´t expect a compansy with less to kill much, though archery will be the exception - they´ll start hitting noticeably better.

Wp 250 will make them comparabable to most high level troopers proficiency wise and your companions should start to roll in the kills from now on - with the proper equipment.

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Really? I think of top-tier units as Doomguides, HAs, SLC, Noldors and CKOs. They all have 400+ WPF. Most honor troops have 350+.

I get the point that trainer is hugely valuable and that companions can be better than their WPF indicate due to superior equipment, and the ability to fight in multiple battlerounds thanks to First Aid. My question is, is it worth continuing to invest in weapon master past 6? At WM 6 you have a soft cap of 260... whereas if you go up to 10, your soft cap is 420, putting the companion on par with the very best units in the game.

Sher has already given a very good response to your questions, I´d just wanted to add a few things he missed.

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Thanks for your response as well Noosers--I very much appreciate you and other veteran players helping me learn this game.

thermocline said:

Really? I think of top-tier units as Doomguides, HAs, SLC, Noldors and CKOs. They all have 400+ WPF. Most honor troops have 350+.

I get the point that trainer is hugely valuable and that companions can be better than their WPF indicate due to superior equipment, and the ability to fight in multiple battlerounds thanks to First Aid. My question is, is it worth continuing to invest in weapon master past 6? At WM 6 you have a soft cap of 260... whereas if you go up to 10, your soft cap is 420, putting the companion on par with the very best units in the game.

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Top-tier generally refers to top-tier faction troops, like Empire Legionnaires, Sarleon Halberdiers, etc.

I try to keep my combat companions ahead of the softcap whenever possible, unless they're way over the cap to start with like Siggy. I don't have the patience to companion grind much so my low-level combat companions like Julia usually top out at around 350ish WP and 7-8 WM. I'm not sure WM 10 is necessary, by the time you get your companions that high you're going to be steamrolling everything anyway, so it's more of a "win-more" situation from MTG if you get what I mean.

I usually never do more than 6 WM - but the way it works is pretty straightforward. Not only can you train proficiency upon upgrading when having higher WM skill, but progess through practice is faster as well the furhter you´re from the indicated softcap.

This means your companions will cover those low proficiences faster because they´ll earn improvements faster, and if they get improvements, they´ll be greater. Significantly.

You won´t encounter knighthood order troops as often as basic faction top tiered units.

10 is overkill on anything. But that´s simply my opinion. I´m no min-maxer and I rarely increase skills tho such high levels unless the investment is done pretty quickly or I can´t spend the points on something better. Because watching Sigismund Sinclair with 10 PS and 10 Ironflesh wreaking havoc with his Pendor Great Sword or Polehammer is tremendous fun. Same goes for Mettenheimer Fred.

Yeah, well my 30AGI to be training character goes 10 Weapon Master as why not, and it means I can get the same high archery prof (even better) than that one character with 0 training that people seem to love using just because it has a high prof, despite the fact they can't really push troops to that level due to low training.

The agi character should be able to reach 4 or 5 training? Hard to say, it's also annoying to try and get them to a really high prof.

Companions' starting xp is random from game to game, right? It has to be--I started a new Pendor game and on day 100, Lethaldiran is about 700 xp away from leveling to level 46. And he was one of the last companions I recruited. In my first Pendor game, I was on day 900 and he was still 400-500,000 xp away from advancing in level.

You want Surgery in your main. Is much better.

If you use a companion for surgery, your troops will have a 35% mortality rate: (100-25-(4*10))

If you have it in your main, it will be 19% (100-25-(4*14)), cutting loses by half.

how i go about my companions, story line included, also trying to min/max everyone. I aim all my companions for high trainer, 30 str, max in their specialization and where possible 6 riding and power draw.


Ansen, surgeon and engineer. goes for crossbow, one handed and shield, like a true elegant lord with mechanic skills would. Late in the game gets easily to 30 str, 10 engines and surgery.

Adonja, pathfinder, tracking and early game looter, brave and bold, fighting with a bow and a two handed spiked weapon of sorts. She also gets to very good strength  and in the end i give her the mystmountain bow which she uses with great skill.

Julia, looter. Yes, a tad surprising choice, but she does get to 30 agi really fast, making her a great balanced-light-lancer also equipped with a crossbow for heritage purposes.

Leslie obvious healer, wound treatment gentle nature of them girls kinda thing, but also early game trader.  Equipped with a light sword and a knightly shield, doubled by throwing scalpels this brave girl smells like fish and will feel sorry when she has to stabby stab.

Sara, the excellent trader. When it comes to running economy for a whole kingdom, you need a versed accountant and that's exactly what this beautiful lady provides. Although she starts with really low str, she has the ability to get to 10 trader in really early game, allowing her further development into a mighty assassin. In my setup she wears a short blade and assassin's knives. 

Kaverra, the manopener which sees things cold and harsh. She can spot the enemas from miles away and she is the best tactician in pendor. Equipped with her long shaft and throwing axes, she has perfect stats to become one of your more influential knights.

Complete with Leth, Sigi, Roland and Jocelyn which you already described best. To complete the upper circle i go for Boadice, because of good early game trainer and good martial lord.

Which makes eleven companions (Out of which Roland becomes lord). Totally worth it, because in early when you're trying to get 20-30 adventurers, with bad trainer you'll have two eastern squires, one rogue noble, etc. Which pretty much feeds of your loot the same way. Next phase of the game you will want to train some troops and i really doubt that day 300 your sigi will be strong enough to train 100 longbows in two nights, or that jocelyn will be enough for that. In late, having 10 trainers instead of just 5 makes up much more for the loot. Of course, loot will be worse, but you will be able to fight more lords and spawns.

sorry potato english no well.

thermocline you dont have surgery skill on the spreadsheet.

I also write this for bumping the thread, so it could be seen. Too many useless threads on front page.

Thanks for the bump.

I don't have Surgery on the spreadsheet because I am assuming the main character will be going for an Int build and will do 10+4 surgery. You never need a Surgery backup, since the skill only works if it's a real (not autocalc) battle, and you can only do a real battle if your main character is not unconscious. Surgery is checked at the beginning of the fight, not the end.

Also, I've changed some of my views on character development. I think it's worth going for Trade on your main, mainly because your main will be gaining a lot of Charisma through gems and with a pure int build you'll have enough skill points for it. That also means you don't need to waste a companion for a Charisma build just for Trade. You get persuasion too but I've never seen a companion succeed at a persuasion mission. Also, you don't need to go all the way to 10+4. If you do it's not bad though, as you'll be buying and selling the entire game so the savings will add up.

I also think you only need one pure Int companion (Ansen). The rest can be fighters.

I've also used some of sher's advice in building companions, and I agree that any build that allows a companion to use a Noldor bow will drastically help their leveling and gaining weapon proficiency. Comp longbow or Comp shortbow-->Noldor bow is probably the biggest weapon upgrade in the game. In fact I think it's so good that it's better to go for 18 str on companions for PD6 before you go to 18 agi for weapon master and riding.

Made several edits to the first page, as I've changed my views on some builds after playing more. TL;DR--sher has the right idea on companion development. I agree with him most everywhere except 18 str is more important than 18 agi to equip noldor bow. It is not worth having a dedicated Trader companion (it's a waste). I also like First Aid on my main now, but not Wound Treatment.

thermocline said:

I also think you only need one pure Int companion (Ansen). The rest can be fighters.

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This is what I do.

I don't do auto-calc at all, and I was under the assumption it would be better to befriend the Noldor anyways.  Is my path of starting as all trader for the +7 and pumping Cha up to get leader 7 before going Int not wise?  I usually trade early game and pick up companions as I gather money.  My plan also modified slightly to focus on tourneys so I can buy up land faster.  I usually stop trading once I have land in all major cities then I pick allegiance.  Also I stop at 7 because I believe you can get books ect for 3 LDR points yes?

I don't exactly want to min/max persay, but I also don't want to end up gimped at day 1000 and frustrated.  Also as for the Noble characters, from my limited experience don't you eventually have to give them all a fief eventually or they get pissed? 

Also the wiki says persuasion is useless because of Honor scaling better, yet I see in the first few comments about pumping it up to keep companions around?  Honestly apart from lost battles or missing quest deadlines i've never had an issue with a companion anyways. 

So from my limited understanding of this conversation, the best thing would be Surgery 10 on my main, and getting it on someone else for the +4, then doing the same for Looting?    Or is this assuming I auto-calc because thats not something I want to do. 

sher said:

Maybe this post will help:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,255110.msg7954779.html#msg7954779

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The guide says to make Sara on Persuasion, isn't that a personal skill?  So how would that help me?

She's good for, um, persuading enemy monarchs not to attack you 

Lushang28 said:

sher said:

Maybe this post will help:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,255110.msg7954779.html#msg7954779

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The guide says to make Sara on Persuasion, isn't that a personal skill?  So how would that help me?

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If youre a monarch you can send a companion as emissary to seek truce, and when choosing the option your minister tells you to pick someone persuasive. From that it is concluded that the persuasion skill has an effect. I dont know if its true or not. I think someone said on this thread that it really has no effect.