The Stoa, Reference Material, Historical Discussion, item/hairstyle suggestions

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Antonis

Antonis

Marquis
Old Guard
Well, it was time for a thread like that, I suppose. So, here we can discuss all things historical and I will accept any suggestion for an item, hairstyle or anything with physical embodiment in the game. I would be grateful for photos, measures, reference material in general.  :smile:
 
Well, the bronze butt spike, AKA sauroter, the lizard killer had several uses: . It could be used to stand the spear up or used as a secondary weapon if the spearhead was broken off. If the shaft of the dory was broken or if the iron point was lost, the remaining portion could still function. Though its combat range would be reduced, the dory‍ '​s complete length would have lessened the chance of a single break rendering it ineffective. Additionally, any enemies that had fallen could be dispatched by the warriors marching over them in the back ranks of the phalanx who were holding their spears in a vertical position.

Taken from Wikipedia.
 
a very nice explenation about the bronze :

Differences Between Iron and Bronze

Deprived of their choice metal, ancient metallurgists cast about to find a new material to work with. What they came up with was iron.

Iron was hardly a new discovery. It is the most common element on Earth. The Hittites had been smelting iron since at least 2000 B.C.E. Yet for 800 years, ancient metallurgists preferred to work with bronze.

The reasons are simple:

  -Ancient metallurgists did not understand the properties of iron as they did bronze.
  - Iron is not much harder than bronze.
  - Bronze and tin are relatively easy to extract from ore, whereas iron ore requires a much more energy intensive and complicated process to smelt.
    -Bronze can be easily melted in a pot over a fire while working iron requires a specialized furnace.

These factors were enough to dissuade most ancient metallurgists from using iron while they had the makings of bronze at their disposal. Deprived of tin by the collapse of trade, those metallurgists began learning how to work with iron. It was then that they made an important discovery.

Invention of Steel

It was found that a small amount of carbon added to iron made steel Invention of steel

While wrought iron was not much stronger than bronze, a small addition of carbon (about 2%) could turn iron into steel. This discovery was probably accidental. Fires generate a great deal of carbon. Each time they put the iron back into the fire to work, they added a bit more carbon to the metal.

Steel is one of the hardest substances on the planet. It is certainly much stronger than bronze. This added strength meant that less steel had to be used to make effective tools, weapons or armor, making steel a lighter alternative. This strength also allows steel to hold an edge better than bronze.

By 1100 B.C.E., iron had replaced bronze as the metal of choice in the Near East. Another three centuries would see it spread across Europe.

Steel vs. Bronze

Even once trade had resumed, and tin was once more readily available, the superiority of steel had come to be recognized. Steel was cheaper, stronger and lighter than bronze.

Although it had lost its position of primacy, the special properties of bronze would guarantee its continued use in a variety of applications. Where iron rusts quickly and completely, bronze only rusts on the surface, making it the metal of choice for outdoor applications, from doors to fountains to statues, as well as horse bits, buckles and anything else that might be exposed to moisture.

from : http://study.com/academy/lesson/iron-vs-bronze-history-of-metallurgy.html
 
Oh. I admit you caught me not having a definite answer here. My best guess is that because iron was generally more expensive than bronze and the sauroter wasn't the primary attack point of the spear, why waste precious metal on a butt spike? Although, that's just a guess.
 
Bronze might be a softer metal, but with the help of tin or copper alloys you can harden it. Bronze doesn't corrode which is why you can find bronze swords in very good condition, some still sharp.
23hw0841.jpg
Bronze is easier to sharpen once damaged with little work as it might just make a "dent" in the blade whilst iron might chip.


I've noticed some forumites are split up in two camps when it comes to these two, some like Lindybeige and dislike Skallagrim and vice versa.
 
Nice! I don't know if they used alloys back then, but bronze certainly lasted. Very good reference pic, very well preserved blades. I have seen some items in our museum in Athens, too(those that survived the British rummaging, that is), very well preserved.

About the two youtubers, however, I am subscribed to both and I really enjoy their videos and respect their arguments, but lindybeige is ranting too much and Skallagrim sometimes is terribly obnoxious. They clearly know their stuff, though. Except one thing, katanas are great. KATANAS. ARE. GREAT.  :razz:
 
:razz:
Well, if Wikipedia is to trust...

From an early time the swords reach lengths in excess of 100 cm. The technology to produce blades of such lengths appears to have been developed in the Aegean, using alloys of copper and tin or arsenic, around 1700 BC. Typical Bronze Age swords had lengths of roughly between 60 and 80 cm, while weapons significantly shorter than 60 cm also continued to be made, but are variously categorized as "short swords" or as daggers. Before 1400 BC or so, swords remain mostly limited to the Aegean and southeastern Europe, but they become more widespread in the final centuries of the 2nd millennium, to Central Europe and Britain, to the Near East, Central Asia, Northern India and to China.
Click to expand...
 
Well, I tend to trust Wikipedia, in general(Jeremy Renner IS a velociraptor, after all). So, it seems that alloys were actually used and pretty much all over the world. Nice, I learned something here.
 
i have a simpler explanation about the butt spike. its about balance! bronze is heavier than steal, so if you want to hold your spear in a horizontal position (either at a low grip or overhead), if you have a heavier end you can hold it not exactly in the middle, but further back. that gives you a little more range without loosing in balance. All the other explanations are of course a plus.
As for the Spartans, they did not have the same sense of honor as people in the medieval times had... the reason for using short swords were far more practical. It has to do with the fanction of the phalanx. the hoplites in a phalanx where very closely packed not only horizontally (protecting the man next to them with half their shield), but also in depth (each one pushed with their shield the man in front, so the man in the front line had the support and the strength of three to seven men behind him!). In a clash between two phalanxes, matters would become quite cleistophobic to say the least! so it would become very hard to draw a one meter long blade out of its sheath!(let alone use it efficiently). On the contrary a small blade would be far easier to draw, and in the proper hands to probe for openings between the enemy shields, or to attack the eye openings of the enemy helmet. Note that a battle between phalanxes was primarily a contest of will and bravery rather than a mindless massacre, exactly because it was so difficult to kill someone covered in bronze from head to toe. To win such a battle one had to brake the enemy phalanx to force every enemy to fight alone, in which case the enemy drop their 8 kilos shield and run in most cases. But a phalanx was as strong as its weakest link! so it was enough to force only one of the enemy hoplites out of position. A short laconian sword could do that even if it didn't actually kill the enemy. A pierce low under the body armor or a hit in the eye was not lethal but enough! 
 
What I had heard about the butts being made of bronze is that bronze does not rust the way iron does. I gets covered with that greenish stain, but is in general a lot more durable than iron. And since it would often be in contact with the ground...
Anyway, this is what I had heard, it is not necessarily the truth, or make other explanations less reasonable.

And as long as I am here, would it be possible to make wine and oil consumable items? They have always been a central part of mediterranean culture and cuisine, and been listed among indispensable provisions in most classical sources.
 
I remember that discussion abut bronze vs. iron durability from before. It seems that bronze doesn't rust(and that's why we have so many specimens found in tombs), but as for durability, iron is the winner. If I remember correctly, bronze is more flexible, 'softer' than iron. So, in a battle, you would like to have a weapon that is more solid. But as for the butt spikes, I think they were made out of bronze. Mainly because of what you said, contact with the ground, water and such, noone would like to replace it every now and then, when it got rusty.

About the wine and oil, I could, if I had the module system. I don't have access to it, yet(although I was able to recover some files). But I can always 'replace' existing foods, if they are more fitting to the setting.  :smile:
 
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