How to use formations?

Hi, I've been trying to make the formations useful but still I'm clueless about this new feature.
In the native version, all I did was just waiting for the right time and charging into the enemy line.
When I first played the VC DLC, I was amazed that they introduced the formation feature, but I have no idea how to use this feature meaningfully.
Some say this new feature is useless, but I believe that there must be something that I'm missing.
So, how do you guys use the formations? and how are they different from each other? Any tips?

A small note for you to perhaps test.  Formations break when you issue a charge, but not when you move them manually, either on the battle map, or by holding down the key to tell them where to hold position, or by issuing the "advance ten paces" command.  As long as the formation doesn't break, I have seen the AI do a little better when dealing with opposing AI units, especially incoming charges.  Personally I prefer a tight formation on hold fire (assuming spear throwing troops liking the various vikings), such that units shields tend to protect each other and I can just sit out whatever significant thrown weapon assault I face at the onset of a battle.  Once I get them actually into the melee, beginning in formation using the ways above, I'll have them charge when it seems right for them to break formation to fight.  At that point, since it is melee mosh pit, I'll have them go to fire at will.  What I often see from this is that, when a unit kills the person they were fighting, they will move to a throwing spear and catch someone in melee with a different unit.

Overall, its pretty true that formations aren't as useful as they could be in other games.  There is no Total War style unit bonus just for being in formation.  Really, all it does is makes the units move cleaner for tactical movement, and to hold position in formation better.  Like trying to use successive volleys in NW commander battles, its fun and neat, but not really more effective.

I usually order my infantry and spearmen to form shieldwall, or similar and then "stand closer" 2 times.
This gives them a very close formation. And it gives them a good advantage in most battle-situations!

Case 1 - Cavalry is charging them
The horses will be stopped very effectively and the whole cavalry gets stuck in my men's formation,
making those mounted guys an easy kill for them.

Case 2 - Archers/Skirmishers are attacking
The closer formations lead to less space between the shields, so my men are better protected against
the missiles.

Case 3 - Infantry is attacking
The Warband-AI is not the smartest and this usually leads to single men of a big party try to fight alone against
a whole bunch of enemies, because other men of their group are slower or got distracted by other, scattered foes.
If you use formations, your infantry is mostly moving like one man with hundred swords, slashing down the less
dense groups of enemies very effectively.

My archers/skirmishers are usually in 2 times "spread out". This makes them a worse target for enemy missiles.
Then they aren't as vulnerable to enemy fire than the enemies' archers are, which usually stand closer together.
They also leave enough space to let my cavalry charge the enemy through their rows!

My cavalry usually uses the Wedge formation. This way they split up the enemy's rows into smaller groups.
Most times I retreat them after that, letting my own infantry slaughter the scattered foes.

So I have a good use for formations^^

I practically only use Infantry units and with the Shieldwall + 2x Stand Closer Command Lenny mentioend you can very nearly annihilate just about anybody who is coming at you. I practically destroyed Enemies with 500-600 Troops with only 200-250 of my own, meanwhile losing less than 50 of my own.
What I do with the Shieldwall is simple. I give them the "Hold fire" command so as to not waste the throwing weapons and then I palce myself on a hill. That way my troops will have the advantage of throwing downwards while the enemy has to throw upwards. Then I wait until the enemy is close. if he doesn't want to attack (which is unlikely if he has numerical advantage) I provoke him and instantly fall back to the hill.
When he gets closer I give my troops the "fire at will" command and then when he is clsoe enough the "Advance ten paces" to engage the enemy. Quite often the AI will fall back a few steps and then I give them another "Advance ten paces" command. That game contineus until most of the enemy are dead and I give the "Charge" command to round them up.
The nice thing with this tactic is, that, every time you give the "Advance ten paces" command you will see the enemy just getting slaughter because his formation is not as tightGive it a try, I paly on Average combat difficulty and it really works wonders, not to mention that its fun.

BrustwarzenLenny said:

[The Above Post by BrustwarzenLenny]

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Since someone official chimed in, might I ask what the actual advantage is of using the formations if any?  I mean, I grant that they are a bit nicer to look at, but literally everything you posted there as a benefit of formations is really just a benefit of telling your men to stand closer twice.  That tactic is equally as cavalry stopping in Native and NW Commander Battle.  And it is that "Stand Closer" trick that makes the troops cover each other with their shields, not the shield wall formation.  And as long as your men aren't set to charge, they do not end up running around like morons chasing enemies in an inefficient way regardless of formation.  Finally, the part about using a wedge of cavalry to split up enemy groups, essentially any contact with an enemy line will do that.  The AI will collapse its lines if any small unit, in any configuration, makes it to their lines.  Unmentioned is the square formation, which I would assume also stops cavalry a bit better.  I'm not saying formations do nothing, just that none of the outcomes you mention above have much at all to do with the formations feature.

I did some experiments with it, and I think I did notice that the formations tend to put more experienced unit types in the front ranks, and the more easily killed ones in back.  That is nice, however I have not tested enough to even be certain that this is a feature and not just random chance on how the troops were sorted out.  That in addition to very slightly easier "Hold this position" movement of formed units is all I can see that the formations are doing.  I'm curious what exactly the formations do for us, because all of the above claims are just a combination of "stand closer together" and the balance of the mod.  If one has some "elite" armored troops going against a normal army composition that involves some low/mid tier units, even without tactical movements its not that difficult to end up with a  3-1 to 5-1 KDR in your side's favor.

The_Normal_Anomaly said:

BrustwarzenLenny said:

[The Above Post by BrustwarzenLenny]

Click to expand...

Since someone official chimed in, might I ask what the actual advantage is of using the formations if any?  I mean, I grant that they are a bit nicer to look at, but literally everything you posted there as a benefit of formations is really just a benefit of telling your men to stand closer twice.  That tactic is equally as cavalry stopping in Native and NW Commander Battle.  And it is that "Stand Closer" trick that makes the troops cover each other with their shields, not the shield wall formation.  And as long as your men aren't set to charge, they do not end up running around like morons chasing enemies in an inefficient way regardless of formation.  Finally, the part about using a wedge of cavalry to split up enemy groups, essentially any contact with an enemy line will do that.  The AI will collapse its lines if any small unit, in any configuration, makes it to their lines.  Unmentioned is the square formation, which I would assume also stops cavalry a bit better.  I'm not saying formations do nothing, just that none of the outcomes you mention above have much at all to do with the formations feature.

I did some experiments with it, and I think I did notice that the formations tend to put more experienced unit types in the front ranks, and the more easily killed ones in back.  That is nice, however I have not tested enough to even be certain that this is a feature and not just random chance on how the troops were sorted out.  That in addition to very slightly easier "Hold this position" movement of formed units is all I can see that the formations are doing.  I'm curious what exactly the formations do for us, because all of the above claims are just a combination of "stand closer together" and the balance of the mod.  If one has some "elite" armored troops going against a normal army composition that involves some low/mid tier units, even without tactical movements its not that difficult to end up with a  3-1 to 5-1 KDR in your side's favor.

Click to expand...

Shield walls in brytenwalda are useful and are more effective than charging, in viking conquest however you only really use shieldwall until you get close then if you don't make them charge you lose more men.

The default formation also seems to place the most experienced troops on one flank and the least experienced troops on the other which can make one of your flanks pretty weak.

Phoenix VII said:

The default formation also seems to place the most experienced troops on one flank and the least experienced troops on the other which can make one of your flanks pretty weak.

Click to expand...

I think that the location of the unit is based on where their stack is located in your party screen.  I try to arrange my party screen to have Companions|Strong Unit|Weak Unit|Strong Unit etc.  I always put an elite unit at the beginning and end of my party screen to ensure the flanks are manned properly.

From my experience that gives a mixture of men within the formation but I have to check that for sure.

DerHerbst said:

I think that the location of the unit is based on where their stack is located in your party screen.  I try to arrange my party screen to have Companions|Strong Unit|Weak Unit|Strong Unit etc.  I always put an elite unit at the beginning and end of my party screen to ensure the flanks are manned properly.

From my experience that gives a mixture of men within the formation but I have to check that for sure.

Click to expand...

Interesting theory. I shall test it myself.

Depends on the faction your playing and the faction you are fighting, as well as the terrain.

The most common way to beat an oposing force of a lordparty is to use flanking even if they outnumber you.

A common battle situation for me as playing viking faction against any lordparty roughly 150 vs 300:

Infantry: 50% ~ 60-80 men heavy infantry, consisting of as many svear warriors as you can get, veteran rekr and other heavy infantry units you gathered.
Archers/Skirmishers: 50% Warrior Archers
Shocktroops: ~20 men including your companions in a seperate group. You may want to add additional shocktroopers like elite vikings, ship captains, bandit leaders and alike, in general I use christian troops for this job as they will have a high probability to die 

Not that I hardly ever use spearman, they are inferior in many ways, useful in defense but unless you want to micromanage even more using different stack sets, stick to heavies.

The formation looks like this at the start of the battle:
Archers on the left, heavy in the centre shocktroops on the right flank, note that the infantry is deployed ahead to make sure it draws the attention.
All units are in hold fire mode.

                        HHHHHHHHHHHHH
AAAAAAAAAAAA                            SSS



When the enemy formation is approaching ~ 100m or less the archers are ordered to open fire, while the infantry slowly falls back

                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

AAAAAAAAAAA    HHHHHHHHHHHHH SSS

And further....

AAAAAAAAAA    ^^^^^^^^^^^^

                      HHHHHHHHHHHHHH  SSS

When the enemy closes in, all units open fire, javelins 20m or less. The archers are now firing into the unproteced flank and rear, the shocktroops engage, the enemy formation either rotates towards them completely exposes them or they suffer heavy casualities on both flanks, The infantry is allowed to engage, depending on the damage dealt and the total strength of the enemy but it does not charge until the odds are clearly in your favor. This usually happens when the enemy lost a considerable number of men, when the enemy falls back to regroup with its reinforcements the infantry charges them, while the archers hold fire to preserve arrows.

Using this tactic I beat enemy stacks twice as large or bigger with less than 6 casualities inflicting 300+

Archers are pretty gimped in this mod, javelins are much more effective but require precise timing and a source for this type of troops. So far I havent tested it on large scale but imagine having 50 skilled javelin throwers on the left flank throwing at close range into the ranks, it will be like a machine gun. Highwayman are particularly deadly in this role. And they are not shabby in mele as well.

Articulo34 said:

DerHerbst said:

I think that the location of the unit is based on where their stack is located in your party screen.  I try to arrange my party screen to have Companions|Strong Unit|Weak Unit|Strong Unit etc.  I always put an elite unit at the beginning and end of my party screen to ensure the flanks are manned properly.

From my experience that gives a mixture of men within the formation but I have to check that for sure.

Click to expand...

Interesting theory. I shall test it myself.

Click to expand...

Its not a theory he is right. I think the higher up you put them the further to the back the unit is. I always moved my companions up to the top for seeing when i needed to level them up and they are always at the back.

Just tested it.  In formation it doesn't matter where the unit is in your party screen. That said, while I though it was sorting units by level, and it may still be, its actually a function of the ranks formation. Probably the easiest test is to use wedge formation, and have a companion.  You can do it with just one or two types of unit, freemen and veterans in my case, and one companion.  The companion was the lowest, so brought up the rear with the freemen.  I leveled him up, cheating style, to ~70.  Suddenly, he was leading the wedge.  No less, in the ranks formation, he immediately goes to the right most spot in the front rank now.  So yes, formations control what level of troop you get at a particular spot in the formation.  However, that feature is useless if you don't have mixed unit types in that setup.  I also learned that, aparrently, if you put a companion without a spear into the spearmen group and form them up, they will ignore their sword and punch enemies.  So I'm guessing formations apply some extra AI combat rules by unit type.

dietpills42 said:

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but if you move the "hold this position" flag to a spot where enemy units are standing, your selected soldiers will follow and attack that specific unit type until they are completely destroyed. All while maintaining the shieldwall formation.

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I had noticed this during the test, but there was a small issue.  The "attack" didn't really do an attack.  What actually happened was that the enemy melee units would throw themselves into my stationary pile of troops.  When fighting skirmishers using slings, my men just went, killed a couple at the spot, then politely waited for the enemy to use all of their ammo.  At that point the enemy skirmishers also threw themselves against the shield wall.  So, I can't say that its a working attacking mechanic, but it does give the extra message with the "hold this position" flag saying that they will attack.

Another test for someone to run there?

My only problem with the formations is that they never quite deploy the way I want them to, either they go too far forward when I say hold position, or they go too much backwards, or they aren't a nice line but in \ form instead of - 

O" they are too much to a certain side.


I constantly want to plug bridges, or camp entrances with the shieldwall. But, they never deploy where I tell them to, and if they do they face the wrong direction


It used to work verry well in Brytenwalda, but in Vikings conquest I just can't seem tog et the shieldwall to form up where I want it to

Haven't tried this yet, so I'm not sure how well it works, but if you go to the Formations menu (somewhere in the Camp menu, IIRC) there's an option where troops will adjust their formation to face their enemy and the box next to it is checked by default. Maybe, if you uncheck the box you'll be able to use your shieldwall easier?

To me the biggest advantage of formations is to maintain unit cohesiveness.  My infantry stay in formation, destroy the oncoming infantry assault, and then they move on to the next wave of infantry.  If I were to not use formations, the infantry would get all spread out and the successive enemy reinforcements would be able to kill quite a few by surrounding my troops who got separated from the mass. 

I also prefer to not issue the charge command until I know the enemy is nearly done with reinforcements.  That way my unit stays together.  I use my cavalry to go after routed enemy while keeping my infantry formation intact.  This seems particularly important when you are facing a much larger force.

Phoenix VII said:

Haven't tried this yet, so I'm not sure how well it works, but if you go to the Formations menu (somewhere in the Camp menu, IIRC) there's an option where troops will adjust their formation to face their enemy and the box next to it is checked by default. Maybe, if you uncheck the box you'll be able to use your shieldwall easier?

Click to expand...

I trie that, it made things worse.

I get the idea that the shieldwall deploys to the left and slightly behind from where you say: hold this position.

So I'm using lots of trial and error and in the mean time make resued Brittons charge my enemies to give me time to put the shieldwall where I want it

Really hoping they implement a "practice formation" feature in refuge or on castles.