[ECS2] Suggestions & Questions

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It's pretty apparent that the admin team is not going to change their stance that this is considered cheating, but don't you think that an entire tournament ban is too harsh for a first time "offender"? I put offender in quotation marks because I truly don't believe Sota was trying to cheat or gain any advantage. He has proven in many matches, both in NA and EU, that his skill is beyond needing any sort of aid, but that's beside the point. I think a more appropriate punishment would be to have him serve only a match or two suspension as a punishment.

Edit- I'm not taking sides, but I think it's important for people to consider all sides of every situation.
 
My biggest peeve with this whole thing is that people keep saying that he "got caught in the act" like they are some sort of detective genius that saved the community from a volatile criminal. When in fact no one would've known anything if Sota himself didn't post the screenshots. This leads me to personally believe that he didn't believe it was helping him win games or he wouldn't have posted the screenshots in the first place.

Your tournament your rules, but if anyone could provide a reason for why he would've posted the screens while fully understanding that he was cheating and the consequences of it, then I would like to read it.
 
Pink textures were discussed before the tournament and it was specified that using them is banned. the wording is a bit vauge and leaves room to argue all day long if its gaining an advantage. Saying that the ban of sota is fine.

What i don't understand is why your making them replay the match? It was clearly one sided and sotas use of pink projectiles would not have seriously changed the outcome of the match. You are punishing the rest of the team especially as the other side also broke the rules. The only people you are hurting with this rematch are innocent team mates. Your even punishing Heroes by making sure they cant prep at all before that rematch is played.
 
Cybran said:
Keller said:
Well I don't know if there are a lot of people playing CS around here but I assume that some do. For me using pink javs/arrows/bolts is exactly the same as using sv_showimpact 1 during a match on CS, it would absolutly OP. It helps quite a lot to aim (especialy from a far distance), dodge or even loot things...
Click to expand...

I play cs quite a lot, but I don't see how this is the same as sv.showimpact 1. Showing impacts in cs would be op, becouse you could see if you hit someone or not, since it shows the player model if you hit.

I don't really think this can help you with your aim. I played archer for a very long time and seeing your arrows normally is ok, at least I usually know where my arrow went 8/10 times and I don't think this mod would change it.
Click to expand...
No? Seeing where you exactly shoot does not help you? if you can see where your arrow goes 8/10 times, pink arrows could make it 10/10 (even 9/10 would be gaining an advantage...).
+I personally think that dodging something flashy pink is easier than dodging something dark wich is also gaining an advantage.
 
Man none can dodge arrow coming right for your head doesnt matter the colour :wink: I think this pink arrows are just when you run out of arrows, you can pick some from the ground, anyway doesnt give any benefits at all. I think its bit boring banning one of the leaders of the best clans, i think this ban is bit too harsh, anyway not my business :razz:
 
I'm sorry but the decision you have made is funny. It's not like he's using something like, wallhacks, autoblocks or aimbots. His fault(!) is making javelins pink and he posts it himself not believing in this. I'm telling this to you not because I'm a part of the clan, but because it's completely unfair. If it was something like 1 or 2 matches ban people wouldn't even have minded that and he'd have understood that it was a mistake using that.
 
Haven't been around all day to keep an eye on this but it's not acceptable to repeat the same points or ask questions here that have been answered. The reasons for the admin decision have been posted and questions have received responses. There is no reason to pollute the forum like this so I am once again locking this thread and warning all users to cease posting questions that already have clear answers.

You have twitter to vent your feelings and voice your opinions. This is a forum for productive discussion and tournament administration.

EDIT: The thread will be opened in a day or so when there will be someone around do check it and the moderators of this sub-forum have been given guidelines on how to control it.
 
From my message to Aeronwen:
You can make winner's bracket and loser's bracket. So the winners of groups will fight with each other in the first round of knockouts in winner's  and losers will fight with each other in loser's. If a team in winner's loses a match it will fall to the loser's second round. If a team in loser's loses a match it gets knocked out of the tournament. This way you will get more close and exciting matches since the first rounds of knockouts.
Click to expand...
 
The problem with this suggestion is that it will make a quick and straight-lined tournament become less straight-lined and quick.

From the way I know "double elimination" (which I believe you are suggesting), it means that in the end the last remaining unbeaten team will face the winner of the losers bracket in the grand final. This means however that there will have to be two finals played if the loser bracket winner team wins, because it would be unfair else. The winner of the losers bracket has lost a knockout stage match already and is still in, whereas the remaining unbeaten team would only have lost "their first life" by losing the final. This as I said before would result in a second grand final. I don't know if a system like this (while I obviously find it entertaining and a nice system for duel tournaments for example) fits the "spirit" of the ECS. Quick, intense and no second chances (apart from group stage of course).
 
You're probably right about some unhonesty with unbeaten team getting knocked out in finals, but this would make next tournaments more exciting to watch due to the current condition of the scene. Double elimination is being used in mostly every esport, so why don't we try it?
 
I agree an upper bracker and a lower bracker would make the next tournament more interesting. Currently you have 1-2 close matches in the group stage and then the first quater finals would have been 3-4 one sided total stomps (if it wasn't for k**** not turning up) At least in double elimination you would get some close games
 
Neathar said:
The problem with this suggestion is that it will make a quick and straight-lined tournament become less straight-lined and quick.

From the way I know "double elimination" (which I believe you are suggesting), it means that in the end the last remaining unbeaten team will face the winner of the losers bracket in the grand final. This means however that there will have to be two finals played if the loser bracket winner team wins, because it would be unfair else. The winner of the losers bracket has lost a knockout stage match already and is still in, whereas the remaining unbeaten team would only have lost "their first life" by losing the final. This as I said before would result in a second grand final. I don't know if a system like this (while I obviously find it entertaining and a nice system for duel tournaments for example) fits the "spirit" of the ECS. Quick, intense and no second chances (apart from group stage of course).
Click to expand...


also its not really unfair as you play less games to get to the final through the winners bracket. At least in dota etc, If you have the maps pre released it gives winners bracket finalist an advantage in that they have longer to prepare for that map
 
_Osiris_ said:
Neathar said:
The problem with this suggestion is that it will make a quick and straight-lined tournament become less straight-lined and quick.

From the way I know "double elimination" (which I believe you are suggesting), it means that in the end the last remaining unbeaten team will face the winner of the losers bracket in the grand final. This means however that there will have to be two finals played if the loser bracket winner team wins, because it would be unfair else. The winner of the losers bracket has lost a knockout stage match already and is still in, whereas the remaining unbeaten team would only have lost "their first life" by losing the final. This as I said before would result in a second grand final. I don't know if a system like this (while I obviously find it entertaining and a nice system for duel tournaments for example) fits the "spirit" of the ECS. Quick, intense and no second chances (apart from group stage of course).
Click to expand...


also its not really unfair as you play less games to get to the final through the winners bracket. At least in dota etc, If you have the maps pre released it gives winners bracket finalist an advantage in that they have longer to prepare for that map
Click to expand...

To play less matches is your reward for being good. Having lost once in the knockout stage and still be able to keep going is a privilege. I don't see why the team which has lost once and then reaches the final should be granted the second chance, whereas the remaining unbeaten team should not. More time to prepare for certain maps is not the same value as being able to continue the tournament after having lost once in the knockout stage.
 
Double elimination finals can work in different ways.

Let's say
Upper bracket finalists = Team A
Lower bracket finalists = Team B

So we have Team A vs Team B.
1) Double finals
If Team A wins the first finals, they win the tournament, that's it. If they lose, you'd have to play a second final since Team A also deserves a second chance just like Team B got in loser's bracket.

2) One map advantage
Team A start with an advantage, you could give them one map or a set amount of rounds. I don't like this though, unless we change the match format to three maps instead of two.

I don't like double elimination. A lower bracket is fun and all, but that's why we have groupstage. Once you reach knockout, it's all or nothing, even for the bigger and stronger teams. Imo this makes it more exciting.
 
Le Roux said:
Let's say
Upper bracket finalists = Team A
Lower bracket finalists = Team B

So we have Team A vs Team B.
1) Double finals
If Team A wins the first finals, they win the tournament, that's it. If they lose, you'd have to play a second final since Team A also deserves a second chance just like Team B got in loser's bracket.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I meant. Thanks for clarifying for everyone with that post. :grin:
 
As I mentioned It would just make games more interesting to watch, cuz the number of close matches will increase.
U just guys talk about some strange stuff. If you want this to be a esport then tournaments must excite a viewer. By using double elimination you will still have the same fights between the main competitors. Actually, Osiris is right, you will have 1 week more to prepare for your next enemy.
Btw, if you want a really honest and clear tournament, mb we should try to do groups totally random? So we could have AE, WeDontYou, Freelancers and IR in the same group? Isn't it fair? 
It's not fair, but it's totally right. Nobody wants to have one team just rape anothers through the whole knockout stage.
We could try to think about some reward for the team which didn't lose at a tournament at all. Making the second finals is kinda ridicilous, as for me, but this is the another question to discuss.
 
Seeding (i think thats the term?) is used in a lot of sports such as football with the Champions League to ensure the teams that reach the latter stages are the best teams there are. I agree with it pretty much. Nobody wants to see a final between a top team and one that got there because they got lucky with the system (Agincourt good example, y i went there).
Much better to have teams stomping in groups than in a semifinal, don't you think? :wink:


Also I don't know how a tournament can be more " honest " because its random. You seem a bit biased mate.
 
I wrote this as the example that the system don't have to be 100% random and there are already some controversially stuff being used . Seeding is being used to make tournaments more exciting, you're right, but it makes groups less random, cuz u'll never get the best teams seeded in one group. With double elimination u'll still have the finals between the best teams, but the tournament will be interesting since the first round of knockouts. Every week will bring you a nice match between the teams which can compete each other. The problem that we have right now is that the first rounds of knockouts are 16-0.
 
Silvernj said:
U just guys talk about some strange stuff. If you want this to be a esport then tournaments must excite a viewer. By using double elimination you will still have the same fights between the main competitors.
Click to expand...
No, I just said how double elimantion works for the finals. I don't think offering an advantage as 1 map or a set amount of rounds for one team adds excitment to a finals.
Playing two finals (of which you potentially don't have to play one) also seems stupid to me.

All I'm saying is that if you do double elim with the current format, things get messy. Messy things aren't fun.

Silvernj said:
The problem that we have right now is that the first rounds of knockouts are 16-0.
Click to expand...
You are right, this is a problem. However it's not directly related to seeding. I think the issue is the top 4 is just way ahead of the other teams. You can't fix a skill gap with different tournament formats.
 
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