maybe a few well designed competitive maps for a change!Rhade said:
New clans, scrimming, and the future of NA
- Thread starter fengay
- Start date
Users who are viewing this thread
The walls of text in this thread make me proud. Carry on my legacy. 
IMO, part of fostering growth of new clans is giving them a place to beat the **** out of each other without being relentlessly smashed by the top teams. They should be smashed a few times so they know there's room to improve, but kicking them while they're down doesn't help anyone. I think a good course of action would be to give them a sore ass once but be 100% open and friendly about helping them improve afterward, then stick 'em up against a team more on their level to see if they learned anything. Having somebody from an experienced team (preferably somebody with a solid track record in a long-running clan like Wily, Rhade, or Mad Dawg) sit in on their matches and/or review streams with them would help them learn and interface with other members of the community. If they have any potential at all then they'll improve and can be left to their own devices.
The early days of Bannerlord are going to be a mess, but once old hands get accustomed to new tools it's going to be hard for new clans like it is now. We can't coddle them because it would be unfair to them, but we shouldn't 999-0 them because it will only drive most of them away. Beat them into the dirt once, stand them back up, then teach them.
IMO, part of fostering growth of new clans is giving them a place to beat the **** out of each other without being relentlessly smashed by the top teams. They should be smashed a few times so they know there's room to improve, but kicking them while they're down doesn't help anyone. I think a good course of action would be to give them a sore ass once but be 100% open and friendly about helping them improve afterward, then stick 'em up against a team more on their level to see if they learned anything. Having somebody from an experienced team (preferably somebody with a solid track record in a long-running clan like Wily, Rhade, or Mad Dawg) sit in on their matches and/or review streams with them would help them learn and interface with other members of the community. If they have any potential at all then they'll improve and can be left to their own devices.
The early days of Bannerlord are going to be a mess, but once old hands get accustomed to new tools it's going to be hard for new clans like it is now. We can't coddle them because it would be unfair to them, but we shouldn't 999-0 them because it will only drive most of them away. Beat them into the dirt once, stand them back up, then teach them.
Yo. I've got a plan for a hybrid ladder/Swiss system. Weekly matches instead of independent scheduling, a matchmaking procedure instead of a challenge system, good stuff. UNAC is talking about trying a new system for next season, and I want them to give it a shot. Not holding my breath for that, though. I'll be giving it a go in Bannerlord unless UNAC tries it and it fails horribly (which it shouldn't).Rhade said:
A good read Lagstro. Well said.
One problem I've always had with the Rebels is actually getting players that truly want to improve. Most players, like most people, want things to be handed to them, they want instant gratification. I've had players complain about being benched even though they didn't deserve to play. Usually, players like that will leave the clan for a clan that requires no effort. "Hey guys. are we scrimming tonight? gimme a sec, let me install warband." I suppose they're doing me a favor. Ok maybe that was a bit off topic. I guess my mind is thinking about what's wrong.
Yeah, there's not much left to do at the top but even in the mid a low tiers it's pretty boring as well. I don't see a lot of new clans taking the game even remotely serious. They'll beat another new clan and pat themselves on the back and continue being bad. After about a month the new clan with the goofy clan name disappears entirely. Next week on the forums you see "hey guys I'm starting this new clan.," Same ****ing people from the last couple of dead clans. Rinse and repeat.
I like this Idea. Ghaern could probably write a good guide as well. He's pretty thorough and can produce a wall of text that will rival Orion.valent69 said:
One problem I've always had with the Rebels is actually getting players that truly want to improve. Most players, like most people, want things to be handed to them, they want instant gratification. I've had players complain about being benched even though they didn't deserve to play. Usually, players like that will leave the clan for a clan that requires no effort. "Hey guys. are we scrimming tonight? gimme a sec, let me install warband." I suppose they're doing me a favor. Ok maybe that was a bit off topic. I guess my mind is thinking about what's wrong.
Yeah, there's not much left to do at the top but even in the mid a low tiers it's pretty boring as well. I don't see a lot of new clans taking the game even remotely serious. They'll beat another new clan and pat themselves on the back and continue being bad. After about a month the new clan with the goofy clan name disappears entirely. Next week on the forums you see "hey guys I'm starting this new clan.," Same ****ing people from the last couple of dead clans. Rinse and repeat.
didn't read most of the posts above so i might be saying the same **** as other people, but here's the biggest problem (happens in both EU and NA):
A good team stomps a weak team. Instead of the weak team working together to get better, the best player(s) of the weak team join the good team because they don't want to play with a weak team. The weak team will always stay weak and will never become good enough to compete with the good team.
this leads to the current situation;
EU: most top players stack either KURWA or AE.
NA: most top players stack either TMW or wK.
The only thing that could fix this "problem", would be having less individuals who have the interest in becoming a top level player, and more groups of friends who want to become the top level team.
A good team stomps a weak team. Instead of the weak team working together to get better, the best player(s) of the weak team join the good team because they don't want to play with a weak team. The weak team will always stay weak and will never become good enough to compete with the good team.
this leads to the current situation;
EU: most top players stack either KURWA or AE.
NA: most top players stack either TMW or wK.
The only thing that could fix this "problem", would be having less individuals who have the interest in becoming a top level player, and more groups of friends who want to become the top level team.
sotamursu123 said:
Hmm... no I don't think I have really seen that be that big of a thing in NA. Partly because MOST of the top-tier clans have a fairly strict recruitment policy where such players have no chance of even getting in (because skill alone doesn't get you the nice comfy seat). Also... yea... that's hasn't really happened much. Only thing I have seen similar to that is a clan dying out (after having been one for quite a while, in some cases even several years), and then some of the players that still want to stick with warband end up joining a better functioning clan.... I mean... why wouldn't they?
But as far as a top-tier team stomp a low tier-team and instantly have players from the low-tier team join the top-tier team... I have not seen that at all really.
Only this UNAC season in particular has had an unusual amount of player trading... but it's among the same newly formed clans which aren't even top-tier ones at that... so that's not really a long-standing issue for NA.
Only strong example I can think of is Mok... but at the same time... you can't really say he was REALLY part of any other clan than TMW. Other than the issue with GK not letting him play on their competitive team and then playing one tournament as a merc for rebels, he was pretty much just a pub-star that ended up in TMW in the end.
Though let's also not forget Snoop's point. There really are some people that you simply can't work with. They are unwilling to put any real work in to improving and just want everything handed to them. A team full of people like that will never rise. If one or two people in that team are being held back by the rest... why is it wrong for them to look for something better that satisfies them?
sotamursu123 said:
NA population is way too small for that. Just getting enough people together to form a team is difficult enough. Now gather enough new people AND convince them all to put in the effort to become the best? Good Luck with that m8. Would be awesome to see, but I haven't seen those kind of people around lately. But yea, that would be ideal obv.
I liked Mok when he was in LES. He didn't say anything but still showed up for scrims.
sotamursu123 said:
Pretty much sums up my clan
...well and inactivity too I guess.I'm also bothered at the fact that most NA teams/clans have adopted this highly defensive and passive style of playing in competitive matches, content with waiting for the flag EACH AND EVERY ROUND. I can no longer recall watching/playing a match that is less than an hour, making each match extremely boring.
If I'm a new player who is somewhat interested in the game, I would want to watch exciting competitive matches to get myself more pumped up about learning the game and perhaps even joining a clan to be a part of all the action. I wouldn't want to spend an hour and a half falling in and out of sleep on youtube or twitch. Actually, I probably would just stop watching after the first 10 minutes and would most likely just brush the game to a side.
Courtney said:
That's the response of most competitive teams because it is the most reasonable thing to do given the current system. There is often very little you can do to stop a team from taking extremely defensive positions and attacking them directly every round places you at a disadvantage every round. If you wait for flags it might end up that you have to attack them anyway, but at least you have a chance for favourable positions yourself so nothing is lost by waiting and the possibility of getting an advantage is gained.
It's a fundamental issue with the battle gametype and unless its changed there is no logical reason for teams to always play aggressive.
This.valent69 said:
I thought about this. You know what? It is appalling.
I feel like there are certain clans who complain about being bad, but never do anything about it. SPOILER it takes work to get to the top. Pubbing and scrimming once a week does NOT cut it.
I like to think of KoA as an example. I (and most seem to) think of KoA at a high level of competiton in the current scene
no im not saying we are the best
KoA didn't get better out of nowhere. We got mentors for individual players, got help from the higher ups like TMW and wK. We practiced every day. And it paid off. But it was not an overnight thing. This took a year to do, though. But when you stick with it, it just makes it that much sweeter to celebrate with your clan mates.
So if it is any consolation to the lower tier clans, you CAN get better. This personal anecdote is for all the lower tier teams of a recent example of how you aren't stuck where you started. You need to stick with your clanmates though. Don't go around creating new clans every week. Stick with your teammates and reach out to the other clans. For God's sake, the wK mentorship program was one of the BEST things that came out for this community, and it was so disappointingly under utilized. Some of the greatest NA players offered there services, but few bit the offer. People need to realize the opportunities they have and take them.
The_Troubadour said:
I think KoA just hit a slump at that time after losing some of your top-tier members (Boogy...who was known as Burgundy at the time, Joe, Robocop, etc). I don't know what kinda miracle taco John has been feeding you guys, but yea you're now back on your feet
.Random fact: Godfrey tried to recruit me one time during my prime with the Rebels...lol.
ACanadianPolarBear
Sergeant Knight
cuz i joined and im the best so ez gaem
I've noticed that this is really just a byproduct of bad intel.Courtney said:
Watching streams, one can see that players will often get separated from the rest of their guys, whether to scout something, maybe to flank, or for whatever reason. But when they do that, they become a separate, local entity compared to the rest of the team.
Those players are vulnerable.
Matches are full of small mistakes which nobody by any chance observes.
Clans need to be willing to put their scouts out more often, to test the positioning of their enemies.
If there is a weakspot, it can be exploited, and this is what we call being aggressive.
We call it stupidity when it wasn't actually a weak position, and the attackers get killed.
So many rounds can be won simply by getting that early kill with skill and initiative.
All it takes is knowing that the lonely archer, the scouting horseman, or the separated infantryman are there to be taken out of play with a fast move. It can be mere seconds of mistake between when you spot the potential target, and how fast you mobilize to take advantage of it.
Local, momentary superiority of numbers. All it takes is good intel and a caller who isn't lazy.
I understand that some maps, even popular maps, have flagspawns that heavily favour defensive play.
I don't think we should have maps in play that leave the winner of a round almost entirely to being at the right random place at the right arbitrary time. They should be modified to encourage aggressiveness. That means better accessibility.
*CoughSandi'BoushCough*
Ever since I first played WFAS and saw a naked guy fighting 3-6 people at once (he was manual blocking, not just spamming) and winning in a landslide. I've wanted to be on that skill level.
VL is one of the clans someone mentioned in a previous post. Great individual skill, but lack of cohesiveness, strategy, teamwork, ect. As these aspects were downplayed, everyone (besides me it seems...) was surprised when we lost 0-16 to wK and other clans. Everyone kept ranting about how they had millions of hours then left teamspeak and warband before we could talk about why we lost. I talked with Lagstro a while after that about general strategies, and I passed them on to the leadership. I don't think I saw a single one of them used when I didn't push directly for it. VL was then confused and bitter why they couldn't win any rounds in UNAC, but refused to have any scrims at all, let alone sessions in which we discussed what was keeping us back. (Aka, lack of cohesiveness, strategy, teamwork, calling, ect.)
Akaria on the other hand, has quite a few newer players who are eager to improve, as well as more experienced ones who are as well. More than that, they actually want to improve as a team, as opposed to individually. With Forsaken (former TMW) essentially guiding the clan, it is steered in a direction of success. Other leadership is picking up quickly how Forsaken runs things and will certainly be quality callers in time. Akarai scrimmed TSB and Rebels recently, and those matches were incredibly useful. I imagine a 0-16 by wK or another top team would be less so, as defeat might come too quickly to notice why we died. Both clans also offered farther assistance (I think. I was pretty sleep deprived for the Rebels one).
Sadly along our way, we scrimmed a new clan who was only focused on scrims and didn't really care for any other game style. They disbanded some time after we beat them solidly (I wasn't there, it was pickup). I think players should first enjoy the game before trying to go competitive, but maybe that's just me. It wouldn't be a bad thing to start off wanting to go competitive (liek me) but I can see a higher retention rate if the players started off with a more casual mindset.
VL is one of the clans someone mentioned in a previous post. Great individual skill, but lack of cohesiveness, strategy, teamwork, ect. As these aspects were downplayed, everyone (besides me it seems...) was surprised when we lost 0-16 to wK and other clans. Everyone kept ranting about how they had millions of hours then left teamspeak and warband before we could talk about why we lost. I talked with Lagstro a while after that about general strategies, and I passed them on to the leadership. I don't think I saw a single one of them used when I didn't push directly for it. VL was then confused and bitter why they couldn't win any rounds in UNAC, but refused to have any scrims at all, let alone sessions in which we discussed what was keeping us back. (Aka, lack of cohesiveness, strategy, teamwork, calling, ect.)
Akaria on the other hand, has quite a few newer players who are eager to improve, as well as more experienced ones who are as well. More than that, they actually want to improve as a team, as opposed to individually. With Forsaken (former TMW) essentially guiding the clan, it is steered in a direction of success. Other leadership is picking up quickly how Forsaken runs things and will certainly be quality callers in time. Akarai scrimmed TSB and Rebels recently, and those matches were incredibly useful. I imagine a 0-16 by wK or another top team would be less so, as defeat might come too quickly to notice why we died. Both clans also offered farther assistance (I think. I was pretty sleep deprived for the Rebels one).
Sadly along our way, we scrimmed a new clan who was only focused on scrims and didn't really care for any other game style. They disbanded some time after we beat them solidly (I wasn't there, it was pickup). I think players should first enjoy the game before trying to go competitive, but maybe that's just me. It wouldn't be a bad thing to start off wanting to go competitive (liek me
) but I can see a higher retention rate if the players started off with a more casual mindset. 
The_Troubadour said:
Bout halfway through UNAC 1 our team was basically down to 5 people the biggest reason we improved so much after UNAC 1/2 is we basically hit the reset button and recruited people who wanted to get better and were willing to put in the time and not give up after a couple failures. If you have people that just show up when its important or when they want to... I can say that after many bad experiences that those are the wrong type of people to build an A team out of.
Today we have an actual team, not some rag tag group of mercs that scrim together once a week like we had before at points in time in our history. I would also like to say that there are very few competitive KoAs today on our team that have not joined since unac 1, it's not that hard to quickly form a well working machine if you find the right parts and have the experience of being in a team.
I'll also say that I understand people have other obligations in life and Warband is just a game, sometimes you have to determine if people are lazy or really can't devote the time you want them to into the team.
ClockWise
Master Knight
Dryykon said:
Oh, huh. He vanished a while ago, came back, vanished again. He's a good guy, hope it works out well.
Rallix said:
Also, if you're talking about graveyard spawn, please, don't. The place has 3 ways to get in, ways for attackers to get above and behind enemies, and camping it only lets the enemy run around the entire map setting up to eventually poor into graveyard from all directions.
It seems like we're all on the same page, in terms of what is lacking in our current environment. As far as solutions, there seems to be some consensus around:
It's interesting reading through this thread. I remember when wK first started scrimming. Mad Dawg was letting us bum some Vent slots off Balion and I was begging for competitive/gameplay tips from Rhade and Kitten. Got our asses kicked for a long time before we started to figure it out. To me, it seems most important to develop a group of like-minded people. It's less about hours played and more about getting everybody to stand around the same fire.
Not picking on Rich, but this is a mentality that I hear repeated over and over again, and I believe it's absolutely a fallacy. Yes, many teams have chosen to play this way, but it's to their detriment. A lot of clans would be better served by taking calculated risks, as opposed to crossing their nuts and hoping MOTF pops up someplace inside their crossfire. If anyone watched the early BkS matches (especially on Random Plains or FbtR), you'd see them isolating and killing players that were out of position. We do the same **** now -- still works just as well. Rallix nailed it. Yes, if you move so slowly and attack so lazily that the enemy team has time to build condos up on the fortress wall, you're gonna have a bad day. Many clans would have a lot more luck if they surrendered the initiative less willingly.
- Providing an arena for newer players to test themselves. A "Noob server" sounds workable in theory, but not sure we have the NA population to get it done. Alternatives?
- A "How to Create/Run a Clan" Guide
- "Ensuring the playground is full of sand and well maintained in a highly visible area is more important than holding the hands of the kids that come to play in it."
- Do a better job of promoting the tools we currently have available for people that want to improve (guides, streams, mentorship programs)
It's interesting reading through this thread. I remember when wK first started scrimming. Mad Dawg was letting us bum some Vent slots off Balion and I was begging for competitive/gameplay tips from Rhade and Kitten. Got our asses kicked for a long time before we started to figure it out. To me, it seems most important to develop a group of like-minded people. It's less about hours played and more about getting everybody to stand around the same fire.
Lord Rich said:
Not picking on Rich, but this is a mentality that I hear repeated over and over again, and I believe it's absolutely a fallacy. Yes, many teams have chosen to play this way, but it's to their detriment. A lot of clans would be better served by taking calculated risks, as opposed to crossing their nuts and hoping MOTF pops up someplace inside their crossfire. If anyone watched the early BkS matches (especially on Random Plains or FbtR), you'd see them isolating and killing players that were out of position. We do the same **** now -- still works just as well. Rallix nailed it. Yes, if you move so slowly and attack so lazily that the enemy team has time to build condos up on the fortress wall, you're gonna have a bad day. Many clans would have a lot more luck if they surrendered the initiative less willingly.
Similar threads
