Flat Earth forever.
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Der Einzige
Master Knight
No, I'm not saying whether it's credible. There are people however that view it as credible though and that there's enough that it should garner some respect in the sense that it should be treated seriously as a idea regardless of truth value. Which for the most part it does, outside of say some arrogant positivists who take things like psychoanalysis or continental philosophy or critical theory as a whole way out of context and completely miss the point while proclaiming to debunk it all.
Should something be respected as an idea regardless of truth value just because enough people do? No not exactly, but these things carry enough weight that I think they should, and like I said they largely do.
Should something be respected as an idea regardless of truth value just because enough people do? No not exactly, but these things carry enough weight that I think they should, and like I said they largely do.
It can be respected as an idea, but that doesn't make it correct in any way.
Der Einzige said:
Of course people have respected psychoanalysis as an idea and Freud's work in general, why else would people perform research over the years to test it as a theory?
It's not as if psychology as a field suddenly went, "Ok, today we have decided Freud sucks, let's throw away all his ideas!!!!!"
The shift from Freudianism was slow and gradual and it most cases had more to do with what new research showed or what was learned thanks to advances in technology rather than simply "disrespecting or discarding the work of Freud."
A great example of this from the field of physics would be Erwin Schrödinger/Albert Einstein who lamented that they had discovered "quantum mechanics" because it essentially "broke" a lot of what had until then been viewed as valid theories.
Der Einzige
Master Knight
Vermillion_Hawk said:
I never said it was correct.
However if we're going to talk about "correct" or "truth" than we'd need to have discussion on the nature of dogmatic positivism in science.
People still do, there still is research done, and it still does.Úlfheðinn said:
Regardless, by my own definition, it would not be considered hot air.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your views, but then I think we are sort of at an impasse. I don't mean any offense but if our definitions (and perhaps views on science) are so different then it becomes rather repetitive/futile to discuss the subject (in a way that won't take pages of simply agreeing on definitions or what is "truthful").
Edit: Thanks for the civil discussion though, it was nice to talk about something like this without insults being thrown either way.
Assuming here that I would continue argue that we haven't been able to prove Freud's theories and that at the present time they don't hold up to research (i.e that they have been disproved). Considering our current progress, I think you would then counter by criticizing positivism/falsifiability or suggesting that there is research that supports his work.
Edit: Thanks for the civil discussion though, it was nice to talk about something like this without insults being thrown either way.
Der Einzige
Master Knight
I think its just a matter of it not being exactly easy to bring the one perspective to the other without having been taught it.Úlfheðinn said:Thanks for taking the time to explain your views, but then I think we are sort of at an impasse. I don't mean any offense but if our definitions (and perhaps views on science) are so different then it becomes rather repetitive/futile to discuss the subject (in a way that won't take pages of simply agreeing on definitions or what is "truthful").
Assuming here that I would continue argue that we haven't been able to prove Freud's theories and that at the present time they don't hold up to research (i.e that they have been disproved). Considering our current progress, I think you would then counter by criticizing positivism/falsifiability or suggesting that there is research that supports his work.
Edit: Thanks for the civil discussion though, it was nice to talk about something like this without insults being thrown either way.
As for "hot air" I've only been trying to explain why I don't consider it hot air and that such things are more or less subjective, and that if we're going to get into deeper questions of truth or validity than we would have to start a whole different conversation on like you said positivism, falsifiability, and an understanding of the theory in question as a whole so to not miss the point of what's being said.
But of course, there's no reason why anyone should throw insults at another during a serious conversation. It was nice talking.
I'm the farthest person from positivism as you can get when it comes to more philosophical subjects, and I see where you're coming from in regards to psychology but it still remains that some things are more true than others in the field, and Freud's stuff is not one of those things.
Der Einzige said:
Yeah, I think we both had a chance to explain our views on the subject and I do understand a bit more what your argument is and where you're coming from so to speak.
The problem is as you say that if we are to continue this discussion we have to delve much deeper into the subject and almost start going through things point by point, in regards to Freud and the development of psychological theory/research.
Which, I'm sure would be seen as completing the cycle of hijacking this thread to discuss psychology by everyone else. (It's just hard to avoid a chance to talk about something interesting...)
Sakallı
What do you think
Why are we fighting
why children are dying
this is a massacre , goes like this in the future we may suffer
everyone is silent , watch this
Why are we fighting
why children are dying
this is a massacre , goes like this in the future we may suffer
everyone is silent , watch this
Sakallı
You need it? looking for google ,you will find same photos about the massacre
but we prefer say "life is perfect , All I care!" and when we were watching TV , Bombs explode in Gaza , Hundreds of people are dying
human rights and democracy only valid for Europe?
but we prefer say "life is perfect , All I care!" and when we were watching TV , Bombs explode in Gaza , Hundreds of people are dying
human rights and democracy only valid for Europe?
All of the tweets on his twitter doesn't seem to exhibit the lack of capitalization, punctuation, spelling mistakes, or grammatical errors of the tweet shown in the picture.
Sakallı said:
Yes, if you come into this thread and post a picture which you "claim" are proof of an Israeli soldier bragging about killing civilians then I am going to expect something better than a poor screenshot which could be easily be edited in some way.
Sakallı
You are right sometimes internet doesn't say trues
im not sure but find it https://twitter.com/daviddovadia/status/494784605698785280
I want to tell The tragedy in ,This is relevant to us because we live on the same planet and we must to live in peace or or we will destroy ourselves
im not sure but find it https://twitter.com/daviddovadia/status/494784605698785280
I want to tell The tragedy in ,This is relevant to us because we live on the same planet and we must to live in peace or or we will destroy ourselves
Mage246
Even if he really posted it, what proof is there that he actually did it? This might surprise you, but any random idiot can say anything on twitter. There's no fact-checking.
Sakallı said:
You should mention that to Hamas; suggest they stop importing weapons, digging tunnels to infiltrate Israeli territory, and launching rockets. If Hamas turned pacifist today and it was blatantly obvious to the world that they did not want to fight, I think the world would be very sympathetic.
As long as Hamas continues to pick a fight, then that is what the people of Gaza can expect: a fight.
Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
QFE. The "asymmetrical casualty ratio" argument is an invalid appeal to emotion. The skew in casualties does not reflect a lack of effort to kill Israelis on the part of non-uniformed paramilitaries in Gaza who blend in with other civilians.
Buddy in Tel Aviv wrote this recently . . .
Whether you consider rockets launched from Gaza at Tel Aviv (or anywhere in Israel) to be "terrorism" or merely "warfare," it seems pretty obvious that if families have to have a bedroom equipped to act as a bomb shelter, they are subjected to daily air raids, and must retreat to their shelter periodically, that they are being "threatened." The fact that the rockets are very ineffective, that Israeli civil defense is highly effective and that Iron Dome in particular is quite effective is in large part what accounts for the very low casualties suffered by Israelis in the ongoing war with the Palestinians.
Coraline
Sergeant
Anthropoid said:
It's more genocidal than a fight, as as long as Israel keeps bombing/shelling Gaza Hamas will find endless support from it's inhabitants making the cycle just repeat forever. It's pretty obvious Israel knows their actions will kill civilians in large numbers but they still drop bombs and shell Gaza with Artillery with very little damage to actual militants and terrorist. Mean while casualties are so lopsided that it's more of a slaughter than a war. I've been saying it for over ten years and the situation has never improved, and will never improve until someone just "Mans" up, and sadly Israel will have to be the country that does.
Endure the Unendurable. Build up it's missile defense, endure Hamas' rocket attacks, blow them out of the sky without major retaliation, start cooperating with Palestinian Authorities rather than just negotiating at an Equal level, give people a reason not to support Hamas and it will slowly start to loose the support it has with the Palestinian population. Do not treat them like Prisoners in their own land. It is perhaps the only possible hope for peace. It's a harder road than just dropping bombs and killing people, this is why I hate Israel for taking the easy road. It's easier to kill people than try to preserve life I guess.
Increasing the Blood shed has proven to do nothing but encouraging it to continue... it's been like this for twenty years and will just keep like this until the bigger brother finally decides to be a Man and suck it up until Palestinians calm down. Right now Israel treats Palestinians like Prisoner in their own land... and of course they will be upset, and that is without the violence, the violence makes it just worse and worse.
Coraline said:
I see it differently. The victor should not have to "endure" anything simply because the loser refuses to admit defeat and uses the blood of its people as its "ammunition."
I've been saying for years, it will never end until there is utter and complete victory. With the long history of bad blood, that is the only 'solution.' I've spent nearly 30 years studying human nature, psychology, social organization, and with a particular interest in competition, dominance relations, conflict and warfare. I have never seen anything as clearly as I see the future of Israel and the region: continued, never ending cycling of violence and quiet, until it is finally finished by one side achieving total victory. Not living in Israel, nor being an expert on Arab or more specifically "Palestinian" psychology I cannot tell you what "utter and complete victory" would look like in specifics. But what it would look like in general is the 'extermination' of the willl to fight from the metaphorical heart of the Palestinian population (which by association includes quite a far flung diaspora of Shiite sympathizers), otherwise the much less likely 'extermination' of the will to fight from the Israeli heart, which we all know would amount to a veritable extermination of the Jewish people.
If you stop and consider this point, and step past the "debates" about "why," and "who is to blame," and "how to achieve peace," the idea that "we" are largely powerless because of the structural elements of ethnic hate that decide the pattern of events in the region is rather chilling. Most likely, if something extreme is not done before it is too late, it will culminate in the use of nuclear weapons.
I know that relative 'restraint' has been the norm for a long time. I know that Israel takes a great deal of criticism even for doing what little she does to retaliate. But eventually Israel must exterminate the will to fight from the hearts of Palestinians, otherwise Israel will face never ending war, and eventually will fall prey to a truly horrific act of terror, such as a nuclear bomb smuggled into Tel Aviv and detonated. Maybe it is 50 years or 100 until such a horror happens. But mark my words, in the absence of true victory / defeat, it will eventually happen. It is really just a matter of how long it takes those with the will to do it, to carry it out, which is primarily a question of funding, access to the technology and un-interdicted access to smuggle such a device in to Israel. Certainly if the most ardent Jihadists of the Shia camp had such a device, the know how to use it, and an obvious means to get it into a large Israeli city and detonate it, they would do so immediately. In the absence of defeat, that longing to exterminate Jews is not going to just go away and no amount of peace talks, or agreements, not even the passing of Hamas as the elected leadership of Gaza or the "State of Palestine" will change that.
Final victory is not typically achieved by sitting back and "enduring" never ending cycles of harassment by your adversary, and as the victor in the Arab-Israeli wars I don't see any reason Israel should regard itself as beholden to endure anything. Anyone who has a different idea really has an idea to wage war on Israel, and apart from her immediate Muslim neighbor states, I don't see anyone with any real prospect of undertaking the years long campaign that would be involved just to occupy much less subdue and pacify Israel. Not to mention the fact, Israel has nuclear weapons. They will never submit to defeat, and if they are on the verge of defeat, they will use their nukes.
Let every Western nation with fiscal involvement in Israel withdraw tomorrow, it will not matter. The Chinese and/or even perhaps the Russians, the Indians, the Brazilians, the Argentinians . . . what is to stop these nations from developing relationships to fill the vacuum of an hypothetical Western divestment? Israeli caginess on such matters is precisely why no U.S. President has ever contemplated anything more harsh than a slap on the wrist for anything Israel has done, and the same can be said for every other serving Western leader. The media, the Palestinian cheerleaders and the pacifists of the blogosphere all like to pretend that a war of words, of negative propaganda and of shaming the Israelis is somehow going to achieve anything of worth. In order to play the part, World leaders go through the motions and mediate "peace talks" and when the current cycle of violence has ended and a new quiet phase ensues nothing has really been accomplished. The hate and desire to fight never ending persists in both the Palestinian and Israeli hearts. The question really is, who CAN win?
I think there is no question that if Israel waged an all out war against Palestine they would decimate such large numbers of people, Hamas, paramilitary and innocent civilian's alike that the currently skewed casualty ratios would look trivial.
Whether Israel should do anything differently is ultimately irrelevant. Israel is going to do what it wants to do and no nation on Earth is in any position to make them do differently. Anytime Hamas supports, promotes, facilitates or in any other way makes a vaguely positive comment about violence toward Israel, Israel generally wants blood. Hamas more than anyone should be aware that they are fighting one of the most savage, effective, impervious, virtually invincible national war machines ever in human history. And yet they still retain their truculent rhetoric, they still cling to their charter steeped in the cause of eliminating Israel, and they still engage in acts of war.
I have sincere sympathy for those in Gaza who are truly innocent and who are having their lives cut short, or otherwise transformed into horror. However, the only political/national entity to blame for the suffering of those innocents is Hamas and it is the Palestinian people who elected them.
Flin Flon
Because Hamas getting elected is not a result of a complicated series of events largely contributed by Israeli policies. Please put your misplaced sympathy away. It's cringeworthy.
How is Israel going to "exterminate the will to fight" from the Palestinians, though? There's very little they can loose, and that is exactly what fuels Hamas. Hamas is driven on violence and the desperation of the Palestinians. Unless you mean to say that Israel would engage in mass deportations or genocide again?
I think you're right in that Israel will do what it wants and that we are mostly powerless, but I'm rather glad that it receives the attention it does. It would be even more silly if we didn't speak out against it, so what do you want?
How is Israel going to "exterminate the will to fight" from the Palestinians, though? There's very little they can loose, and that is exactly what fuels Hamas. Hamas is driven on violence and the desperation of the Palestinians. Unless you mean to say that Israel would engage in mass deportations or genocide again?
I think you're right in that Israel will do what it wants and that we are mostly powerless, but I'm rather glad that it receives the attention it does. It would be even more silly if we didn't speak out against it, so what do you want?
