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What are they going to do? Kill the soldier, thus further diminishing any sympathy they have internationally and giving the Israelis more justification to continue shelling the Palestines at an amazing kill/death ratio?

Why, that would indeed be brilliant maneuvering. That is, if you were the leader of Hamas and have property outside of Palestine which you wish to get back to without people screaming in your ear that you're a traitor and whatnot.
 
Has any evidence actually been put forward to suggest it was Palestinians who kidnapped the teens? I understand the bodies where dumped in the West bank just outside of Hebron but the recorded distress call of the kidnapped teens (previously under gag order) was recently released and seems to indicate that a) the kidnappers spoke Hebrew telling them to get their heads down and where listening to a Hebrew speaking radio station. The official line is that the abductors would have had to speak Hebrew since the boys probably couldn't understand Arabic and that the radio (presumably in the car) was switched on to a Hebrew station to trick the boys. While plausible I am not aware of any evidence to suggest a Hamas operation or Palestinian complicity, but either way bombing the hell out gaza again and killing another 400 people seems like a lunatic reaction. In any case the rocket attacks are irrelevant in this case since they're the usual futile response to armed conflict in the area.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10939620/Emergency-call-from-abducted-Israeli-teenager-released.html
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Recording-of-distress-call-to-police-by-kidnapped-teen-released-361169

A Palestinian boy was burnt alive for the outrage while another was beaten by authorities but hey.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mohammed-abu-khdeir-murder-three-israeli-jews-admit-kidnapping-teenager-and-burning-him-to-death-9605371.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/world/middleeast/beating-of-palestinian-american-boy-caught-on-video.html?_r=0
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/20/ap-interview-palestinian-american-teen-beaten-in-mideast-recalls-ordeal-being/
 
rejenorst said:
Has any evidence actually been put forward to suggest it was Palestinians who kidnapped the teens? I understand the bodies where dumped in the West bank just outside of Hebron but the recorded distress call of the kidnapped teens (previously under gag order) was recently released and seems to indicate that a) the kidnappers spoke Hebrew telling them to get their heads down and where listening to a Hebrew speaking radio station. The official line is that the abductors would have had to speak Hebrew since the boys probably couldn't understand Arabic and that the radio (presumably in the car) was switched on to a Hebrew station to trick the boys. While plausible I am not aware of any evidence to suggest a Hamas operation or Palestinian complicity, but either way bombing the hell out gaza again and killing another 400 people seems like a lunatic reaction. In any case the rocket attacks are irrelevant in this case since they're the usual futile response to armed conflict in the area.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10939620/Emergency-call-from-abducted-Israeli-teenager-released.html
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Recording-of-distress-call-to-police-by-kidnapped-teen-released-361169

A Palestinian boy was burnt alive for the outrage while another was beaten by authorities but hey.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mohammed-abu-khdeir-murder-three-israeli-jews-admit-kidnapping-teenager-and-burning-him-to-death-9605371.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/world/middleeast/beating-of-palestinian-american-boy-caught-on-video.html?_r=0
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/20/ap-interview-palestinian-american-teen-beaten-in-mideast-recalls-ordeal-being/

Just because an act of aggression is "futile" doesn't make it "irrelevant."
 
Then that begs the question of "Does an act needs to be violent or aggressive in order for it to be relevant?" If no, then futile acts of aggression might as well be irrelevant as it is not the only way for a cause to be recognized or for it to be relevant.
 
Cookie Eating Huskarl said:
What are they going to do? Kill the soldier, thus further diminishing any sympathy they have internationally and giving the Israelis more justification to continue shelling the Palestines at an amazing kill/death ratio?

Why, that would indeed be brilliant maneuvering. That is, if you were the leader of Hamas and have property outside of Palestine which you wish to get back to without people screaming in your ear that you're a traitor and whatnot.
Prolly try to ransom him, so you know, no one else gets targeted by bored artillery men as they run in circles pleading for their lives?
 
Anthropoid said:
rejenorst said:
Has any evidence actually been put forward to suggest it was Palestinians who kidnapped the teens? I understand the bodies where dumped in the West bank just outside of Hebron but the recorded distress call of the kidnapped teens (previously under gag order) was recently released and seems to indicate that a) the kidnappers spoke Hebrew telling them to get their heads down and where listening to a Hebrew speaking radio station. The official line is that the abductors would have had to speak Hebrew since the boys probably couldn't understand Arabic and that the radio (presumably in the car) was switched on to a Hebrew station to trick the boys. While plausible I am not aware of any evidence to suggest a Hamas operation or Palestinian complicity, but either way bombing the hell out gaza again and killing another 400 people seems like a lunatic reaction. In any case the rocket attacks are irrelevant in this case since they're the usual futile response to armed conflict in the area.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10939620/Emergency-call-from-abducted-Israeli-teenager-released.html
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Recording-of-distress-call-to-police-by-kidnapped-teen-released-361169

A Palestinian boy was burnt alive for the outrage while another was beaten by authorities but hey.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mohammed-abu-khdeir-murder-three-israeli-jews-admit-kidnapping-teenager-and-burning-him-to-death-9605371.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/world/middleeast/beating-of-palestinian-american-boy-caught-on-video.html?_r=0
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/20/ap-interview-palestinian-american-teen-beaten-in-mideast-recalls-ordeal-being/

Just because an act of aggression is "futile" doesn't make it "irrelevant."

Its a typical mediocre and impotent response to the usual massive military coordinated operation that tends to result in 400:1 casualty ratio wise. In essence I find it has far to much relevance in our media considering the disproportionate use of force and collectivized punishments that target civilian infrastructure as well as the continually expanded settlements and expulsion of Palestinians. Ie: Ethnic cleansing.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/uk-palestinian-israel-un-idUKBREA2K1JM20140321
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israelpalestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians

In 2013, Israeli authorities forcibly displaced more than 1,100 Palestinians from the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, by demolishing their homes. In virtually all cases the purported justification for these demolitions was the discriminatory planning regime that allocates land to settlements but makes it virtually impossible for Palestinians to obtain building permits.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/02/israel-stop-threatened-eviction-palestinians

Since Netanyahu came to office in March 2009, Israeli forces have displaced more than 4,100 Palestinians by demolishing homes in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, according to figures compiled from reports by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). Military demolitions of Palestinians’ homes, usually on the basis that they lack building permits, increased by almost 25 percent in 2013 over 2012, OCHA reported. Eighty percent of the Palestinians displaced by home demolitions in “Area C” in 2013 lived in the Jordan Valley, according to OCHA.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/02/israel-stop-threatened-eviction-palestinians

In essence I find it irrelevant given the rush to brake the ceasefire and engage in all out war in an area that has no military targets and consistently yields up hundreds of civilian casualties when the same response is utilized time after time for what seems to be arbitrary or convenient reasons. This time it was without much evidence of a thorough investigation with the same heinous act [killing of a teenager(s)] being committed by the same side. Likewise there is limited or no evidence that hamas was connected and little justification that an all out bombing campaign was necessary.

 
Kobrag said:
Cookie Eating Huskarl said:
What are they going to do? Kill the soldier, thus further diminishing any sympathy they have internationally and giving the Israelis more justification to continue shelling the Palestines at an amazing kill/death ratio?

Why, that would indeed be brilliant maneuvering. That is, if you were the leader of Hamas and have property outside of Palestine which you wish to get back to without people screaming in your ear that you're a traitor and whatnot.
Prolly try to ransom him, so you know, no one else gets targeted by bored artillery men as they run in circles pleading for their lives?
Tying him up on a post like a scarecrow would be more effective a deterrent for Israeli shells at this point. The Israeli government's been milking the crap out of the incident with the three teenagers and I don't expect one captured soldier to overturn that. At most the government would just call him a glorious Martyr (just like their Arabic counterpart) and re-intensify their shelling.
 
It's not like Hamas has any regard for Palestinian lives anyway. They have been provoking attacks on Palestinian civil areas for some time now.
Not only Israel is trying to make it look they are the victims.
 
rejenorst said:
Anthropoid said:
rejenorst said:
Has any evidence actually been put forward to suggest it was Palestinians who kidnapped the teens? I understand the bodies where dumped in the West bank just outside of Hebron but the recorded distress call of the kidnapped teens (previously under gag order) was recently released and seems to indicate that a) the kidnappers spoke Hebrew telling them to get their heads down and where listening to a Hebrew speaking radio station. The official line is that the abductors would have had to speak Hebrew since the boys probably couldn't understand Arabic and that the radio (presumably in the car) was switched on to a Hebrew station to trick the boys. While plausible I am not aware of any evidence to suggest a Hamas operation or Palestinian complicity, but either way bombing the hell out gaza again and killing another 400 people seems like a lunatic reaction. In any case the rocket attacks are irrelevant in this case since they're the usual futile response to armed conflict in the area.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10939620/Emergency-call-from-abducted-Israeli-teenager-released.html
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Recording-of-distress-call-to-police-by-kidnapped-teen-released-361169

A Palestinian boy was burnt alive for the outrage while another was beaten by authorities but hey.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mohammed-abu-khdeir-murder-three-israeli-jews-admit-kidnapping-teenager-and-burning-him-to-death-9605371.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/world/middleeast/beating-of-palestinian-american-boy-caught-on-video.html?_r=0
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/20/ap-interview-palestinian-american-teen-beaten-in-mideast-recalls-ordeal-being/

Just because an act of aggression is "futile" doesn't make it "irrelevant."

Its a typical mediocre and impotent response to the usual massive military coordinated operation that tends to result in 400:1 casualty ratio wise. In essence I find it has far to much relevance in our media considering the disproportionate use of force and collectivized punishments that target civilian infrastructure as well as the continually expanded settlements and expulsion of Palestinians. Ie: Ethnic cleansing.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/uk-palestinian-israel-un-idUKBREA2K1JM20140321
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/israelpalestine-unlawful-israeli-airstrikes-kill-civilians

In 2013, Israeli authorities forcibly displaced more than 1,100 Palestinians from the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, by demolishing their homes. In virtually all cases the purported justification for these demolitions was the discriminatory planning regime that allocates land to settlements but makes it virtually impossible for Palestinians to obtain building permits.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/02/israel-stop-threatened-eviction-palestinians

Since Netanyahu came to office in March 2009, Israeli forces have displaced more than 4,100 Palestinians by demolishing homes in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, according to figures compiled from reports by the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). Military demolitions of Palestinians’ homes, usually on the basis that they lack building permits, increased by almost 25 percent in 2013 over 2012, OCHA reported. Eighty percent of the Palestinians displaced by home demolitions in “Area C” in 2013 lived in the Jordan Valley, according to OCHA.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/01/02/israel-stop-threatened-eviction-palestinians

In essence I find it irrelevant given the rush to brake the ceasefire and engage in all out war in an area that has no military targets and consistently yields up hundreds of civilian casualties when the same response is utilized time after time for what seems to be arbitrary or convenient reasons. This time it was without much evidence of a thorough investigation with the same heinous act [killing of a teenager(s)] being committed by the same side. Likewise there is limited or no evidence that hamas was connected and little justification that an all out bombing campaign was necessary.

Not sure what you expect Israel to do? Ignore thousands of rockets, simply because they cause few casualties?

And why should any response to the situation be anything but "mediocre?" Is a grandiose response somehow more meaningful? The way I see it, the way that you, I or anyone else on Earth "responds" to the situation is completely irrelevant to how the situation plays out. Billions of words exchanged by mass media, the blogosphere and would-be peace brokers have yet to change anything in the ongoing Arab-Israeli war so I have my doubts that a more extravagant, exceptional, or poignant response is going to make any difference now.

Why would a response to the sitaution need to be "potent?" How could it "potent?" I have no idea how a response to the situation could be "potent;" BAD! BAD! ISRAEL! There, is that potent enough?

Israel is going to do what they feel they need to do, and unless the rest of the world is ready to invade them and take away their sovereignty it makes very little difference what the world thinks.

I want to share with you all, a few posts exchanged by myself and an Israeli citizen of European origin back in 2008 at the time of an earlier period of violence in the seemingly never-ending cycle of violence-quiet in and around Israel.

Query by pro-Palestinian Finnish guy said:
Lately, on other parts of the Internets; I have been part to several debates, a rare few serious discussions, and a few pure contests of demagogues; on the Palestinian issue.

I've been reading a lot on the issue lately (newspaper articles, blogs, essays, wikipedia articles), and it appears to me that ever since Sharon forced through the withdrawal from Gaza, the issue of Israeli colonization of the occupied territories has come to a focus in politics in a rather unprecedented way - both the pro- and anti-colonization factions are making it one of the most important points on their agenda.

I got the impression that the main issue which Kadima got elected into power on in 2006 was a willingness to go through on dismantling all West Bank colonies except the ones contiguous with the Israeli mainland, which it would expect to be allowed to annex. Is this true, Rabi? Do people in Israel still believe in (a limited form of) "Land for Peace", or have their hopes faded?

Response by Israeli Dutch guy said:
ndeed, serious discussions are rare. The topic is rife with unhealthy sentiments.

Kadima is pretty much a lame part y these days. With Sharon still in a coma, many politicians disillusioned and Olmert marked by incompetence and a range of corruption trials, there is little room for innovative policy. Hence we meddle along.

The Israeli public is also confused. A considerable majority has been hoping for over decade to leave the occupied territories and let the Palestinians have their state. The creeping fear has always been that the Palestinians are 1) not to be trusted 2) not capable of having a normal state.
Over the last decade the developments have fed that fear. Trust has been eroded by terrorist activities especially at the most sensitive moments. A more recent example are the rocket attacks ever since Annapolis.
Furthermore, over the years the Palestinian entity has more and more taken on the markings of a failed state (before even becoming one). The formal authorities are not effectively in charge, have no monopoly over violence and hardly any legitimacy with the people.

Therefore, even though most of the Israeli's loathe to rule over the West Bank (almost as much as they loathed ruling over 'Aza), the prospects of what will follow from a retreat are looking so bleak that less and less this seems a viable option.

I must say that personally I have been believing in the two state solution for a long time. Only recently I have begun to see that the PA is a failure and a Palestinian state simply cannot arise (other than in name).

Thus we are stuck with the Israeli's ruling over Palestinians that which no side wants. And they do not want it for political and ethnic reasons, or ideology if you will. Israel wants to rule over a Jewish majority. If all the Palestinians were to be added to the already sizable non-Jewish population of the State, Jews would hardly make up 50%.
Palestinians do not want to be ruled by Israel either, even those who would be fine with accepting its existence.

Neither Egypt (re 'Aza) nor Jordan (re West Bank) want to rule the Palestinians either. 'Aza is an anarchy to begin with and whatever authority is there is the Hamas, which is near similar to the Islamic Brotherhood, which threatens Egyptian establishment. Hence it is not the hot potato they'd want in their hands.
Jordan has a sizable Palestinian population to begin with, but is ruled by the Bedouin Hashemite Dynasty, which barely clings on to power in the face of these Palestinians. Having the bulk of the West Bank added will destabilize even further.

The remaining vacuum is an ideal terrain for terrorists to operate from. As well as regular criminals great and small. Especially 'Aza is a haven of trade in drugs, weapons and women.

Response by American Machievallian said:
What a fascinating and concise essay RA. Thanks so much for that.

If I may synthesize the meta-points you seem to be making (and please clarify if I'm getting your point correct): A black hole (or to build off your analogy of a 'hot-potato') "toxic-potato" of a faltering "state" that no established state in the area really wants to handle.

For such a problem, the only relatively viable (from a probabilistic historical sense) solution(s) would seem to be either (a) containment and isolation resulting in 'attrition' of all elements that make it a toxic potato; or (b) imposition of a police state.

(b) was the way of the past, which has now been backed away from I suppose. (a) only seems to be maintaining a kind of status quo, not making real advances.

All I can say is that I hope Mao and Yassar are not at peace in their deaths.

While it is orders of magnitude different, we have some small experiences in the U.S. with these sort of "toxic" communities. In the 1980s there was an epidemic of violent crime in a number of big U.S. metropolitan areas. The 'solution' in most cases was to beef up the police forces. New York city for instance increased its police force to 50,000 officers, and if I understand the second hand materials I've read, also shifted their policies and procedures to be considerably more combative, interventionist, and militaristic for certain high-risk scenarios. The violence and crime reduced in these big cities

My former advisor and I were talking about this, and his assertion was that, the secondary data indicate that the actual result was merely to _shift_ the crime into surrounding mid-size cities. He claimed that if you look at the crime rates in mid-size U.S. cities before during and after the "War on Crime" period in Big U.S. cities in the 1980s and early 90s, you see that as the crime rates in big cities went down, they went up in mid-size peripheral cities.

This is not exactly the same thing as the PA context, but in some ways similar.

I am not very familiar with New York or any of the other metropoles during the height of crime rates. What I am supposing though, is that in spite of the disruption and possibly total anarchy in some areas, the society on the whole was not a failure. The major institutions, though at times and places not effective, were still recognized as legitimate. I think not only of police, municipality, but also schools, banks, road system, money system and such. I also think that the law abiding citizens and the elite were still living in the cities. Maybe not in the criminal hot spots, but still in the whole.

Especially 'Aza on the other hand, I fear, might be a failed society. The Palestinians have suffered from a drain of elite ever since the 20's. The rich and educated segment of society has not hung around. In addition, a very large percentage is under 14. In addition, what little institutions there ever have been that were not Turkish, British or Israeli, have always been corrupt, therefore suspect and illegitimate. It may not be as awful as I paint the picture here, but what I am driving at is this: the US situation was basically healthy and therefore a candidate for repair. Like a robust person who needs to undergo chemotherapy. The PA situation may be more that of an early born infant, sickly from the git go, with organs that never functioned well, in need of corrective surgery and yet, at the same time infected with complications. In other words, in the US, basic functions were available, the society on the whole was resilient enough to take on the heavy blows of a severe therapy. In the PA it is questionable whether basic functions are good; they were hardly ever there and as a consequence, a rigid approach may well kill off the life altogether.

In the mean time it could drag the environment with. Israel, but maybe first other countries. The whole region has never had a very stable society with effective institutions. But even in Israel the effect is felt. Many Israeli's, deep in their hearts would rather live in the US. Apart from a brain drain to the US (which goes on from nearly every region in the world), the more pragmatic members of society would rather live elsewhere and not face the burdens of the region. What is left behind is an impoverished and ardently nationalistic populace - we are not there yet, but the tendency could make it so.

A solution that I like and would think can be very effective, but needs a major turn in mind set from two antagonistic camps is to merge the region into one state and abandon the Zionist ideal of a state with a Jewish majority and have the non-Jewish part embrace the Jews.
So far with Utopia; what is good about this approach is that the state of Israel has both the economic and the institutional powers of a very healthy state/society. With the addition of the Arab surroundings it would grow in population and land size and with war ended, it can use its innate power for growth to full potential, with the wide populace to profit.
The reality is that the ethnic groups have much more in common than in difference. They have monotheistic religion, semitic language and a long parallel history (Jews have always lived in the wider Middle East). The potential of collaboration is enormous, the strains on cohabitation seem, in my mind, not much more than on mixed communities of Catholics and Protestants or Roman and Greek Catholics - there are many flourishing communities like that in the whole of Europe. In India Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Jain and Buddhist can live together, so why not Jews, Druze, Christians and Muslims, or Jews and Arabs if you like? On a rational and practical level we are very close to this healthy solution. Only on an emotional level we are a world apart.
I wonder how long we must cling on to these emotions?

Well, that's a post that should stir up some discussion.

So you can see, this Israeli guy is hardly a Zionist. He is a very intelligent, pragmatic and humane fellow. Here is how he responded to a query by me in a different thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong here RA, but the two things that I think are getting left out are: (a) relative demographics and (b) recent history.

(a) Israel, relative to all the surrounding sovereignties and territories is a wealthier, healthier, free-er, and more opportune society. In short, the standard of living is higher, goods and services more plentiful and diverse. Infrastructure, education, etc, all better, higher, faster, stronger. It makes sense that all the impoverished people surrounding Israel want a piece of that pie, and/or feel resentment, hatred, anger that they are 'left out.'

Some make claims like Israel's prosperity has been achieved by a virtual enslavement of cheap labor from the surrounding territories, but I find that to be an absurd simplification. Certainly many poorly paid Arabs work in Israel, but Israel's national prosperity is a manifestation of Israeli national industriousness, and hard work.

It seems to me that if the people of southern Lebanon, southwestern Syria, northwestern Jordan, Egypt, and the "occupied territories" were living in equally as beneficient and propserous of societies as Israelis the conflict would essentially evaporate.

(b) Recent history: The area has been haggled and fought over on the grounds of Arab-Jew differences in opportunity and prosperity at least since the end of WWI.

While I disagree with simplistic stories that the 'real' problem in the area is oppression by the wealthy and racist Israelis of the poor enslaved Arabs, it seems true to me that the fundamental problem in the region is not so much ethnicity as it is disparities in prosperity and/or opportunity for different ethnicities.

Response said:
Scipio makes a couple of remarks that may be true, but may also be the product of a Western perspective and not be applicable in the Middle-East at all.

It could be. It could be, if the Palestinians and also say Lebanon, Syria and Jordan would be better off, there would be no war with Israel. Somebody like Shimon Peres, who is now president of the state, likes that idea and has always been in favor of economic help and regional initiatives for bilateral and multilateral cooperation. Especially Jordan is a good companion in that matter. Jordan and Israel share the longest border, have the greatest amount of shared interests and basically a rather harmonious co-existence. It could work.

There are couple of ifs though. First of all, you won't know until it happens. And many Israelis (and i guess many Westerners) are not exactly in love with the idea of letting the surroundings have the same economic strength as Israel. It would tip the military balance. They could decide to cash in on their gained strength.

That brings us to the next point. In how far are the Arabs, both their authorities and the populace (since there is no democracy this is not one) pragmatic enough? Or are they more dogmatic and is the defeat of Israel so important for them that there is no price too high and it will remain on the agenda also, if basically they have a good life?

A third issue is the further complication of this spectrum between pragmatic and dogmatic. What westerners tend to forget is that we deal with a different culture here. One of the deep differences between Western and Arab culture is that the west is guilt oriented and the Arabs pride oriented. In the connection with Israel, pride is very important. The existence of Israel is a blemish of the collective pride. One cannot enter any kind of agreement, or even co-existence with Israel if the hurt pride is not compensated or otherwise dealt with.

EDIT: I realize, I was not exact on the terminology. It is guilt vs. shame. The west is more of a guilt culture and Arab culture is a shame culture. And then, the opposite of shame is pride. The essence remains the same.

As disclaimed in the previous post, it is hard for me to make an accurate statement of the position of the Palestinians, but surely pride is an issue, surely dogmatically (ideologically) they are opposed to Israel and therefore the economic stand may be much less important than you might expect.
 
Eternal said:
I'm wondering what the end goal here is.

From what I've heard so far, framing Hamas (or the very least happily taking advantage of and exaggerating its role in the kidnapping) in order to provoke Hamas into a violent response which in turn will effectively undo the recent Hamas/Fatah reconciliation.

Can't prove it, but out of all explanations, this one seems the least bizarre to me.
 
Have any of you guys seen the Ross Kemp: Middle East? Even though its four years ago it still seems to be rather accurate and was an eye opener for me.
 
Cyborg Eastern European said:
Could we stage an alien Invasion in the region or something? Maybe it'll make them shut the **** up and cooperate.
(IIRC) Biblical history wise, Jews were evicted whenever the big guy tells them they did a doo doo and didn't clean up after themselves and thus don't deserve the holy land. You could get a few ideas from that. :lol:
 
Slawtering said:
Have any of you guys seen the Ross Kemp: Middle East? Even though its four years ago it still seems to be rather accurate and was an eye opener for me.

Seems to be a lot of them. Which one are you talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ross+Kemp%3A+the+Middle+EAst

Probably this one?

My take on that video is: There is no peace without victory, which is to say that one side or the other must be soundly defeated.
 
Cookie Eating Huskarl said:
(IIRC) Biblical history wise, Jews were evicted whenever the big guy tells them they did a doo doo and didn't clean up after themselves and thus don't deserve the holy land. You could get a few ideas from that. :lol:

The US had ideas about projecting Jesus over Cuba...think we could use those plans to shine a big ****ing spotlight into the clouds and tell the Jews they're all to **** off to Madagascar for a few thousand years?
 
Anthropoid said:
Not sure what you expect Israel to do? Ignore thousands of rockets, simply because they cause few casualties?

For starters it should probably not brake the ceasefire(s) on dubious or questionable grounds nor pursue questionable policies that seem to indicate ethnic cleansing or a seemingly will-full slaughter of civilians/collectivized punishment(s) that only ends up precipitating the very thing they then whine about (rocket attacks).

There were no Hamas rockets in 2008 until Israel broke the ceasefire (over an alleged tunnel):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c

The rockets themselves have little relevance therefore as a 'cause' for attack since Israel has launched attacks repeatedly over issues unrelated to the rockets thus making the rocket attacks a bi-product of military action over unrelated matters.

Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides. It’s true that the routine greeting in Hebrew is Shalom (peace) – shalom when one leaves and shalom when one arrives. And, at the drop of a hat, almost every Israeli will say he wants peace, of course he does. But he’s not referring to the kind of peace that will bring about the justice without which there is no peace and there will be no peace. Israelis want peace, not justice, certainly not anything based on universal values. Thus, “Peace, peace, when there is no peace.” Not only is there no peace: In recent years, Israel has moved away from even the aspiration to make peace. It has despaired utterly of it. Peace has disappeared from the Israeli agenda, its place taken by the collective anxieties that are systematically implanted, and by personal, private matters that now take precedence over all else.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112


And why should any response to the situation be anything but "mediocre?" Is a grandiose response somehow more meaningful? The way I see it, the way that you, I or anyone else on Earth "responds" to the situation is completely irrelevant to how the situation plays out. Billions of words exchanged by mass media, the blogosphere and would-be peace brokers have yet to change anything in the ongoing Arab-Israeli war so I have my doubts that a more extravagant, exceptional, or poignant response is going to make any difference now.

Why would a response to the sitaution need to be "potent?" How could it "potent?" I have no idea how a response to the situation could be "potent;" BAD! BAD! ISRAEL! There, is that potent enough?

Israel is going to do what they feel they need to do, and unless the rest of the world is ready to invade them and take away their sovereignty it makes very little difference what the world thinks.

I am not asking for a potent response. I am saying that the rocket attacks, as an excuse to bomb the Palestinians, has lost any of its relevance given that they are not even the cause for the current ongoing military bombardment. 

In any case your country supports Israel and vetoes most, if not all, the resolutions that are critical of Israel so until that changes the majority of global opinion(s) will indeed continue to be irrelevant.

 
 
Cyborg Eastern European said:
Cookie Eating Huskarl said:
(IIRC) Biblical history wise, Jews were evicted whenever the big guy tells them they did a doo doo and didn't clean up after themselves and thus don't deserve the holy land. You could get a few ideas from that. :lol:

The US had ideas about projecting Jesus over Cuba...think we could use those plans to shine a big ****ing spotlight into the clouds and tell the Jews they're all to **** off to Madagascar for a few thousand years?

That would be great. They should make God look like Pinhead from the Hellraiser movies or maybe go with a Lovecraftian design, just for fun.

It wouldn't make any sense for the U.S. to do that though since Isael wouldn't even exist without the U.S. support it's been getting for lo these many years.
 
Actually, no. As fun as it would be, it would probably work better if you stuck with the "heavenly light" thing instead, unless you want them dying of laugher.

...or, we could give Palestinians a heads-up and some particularly accurate missiles to underscore the whole deal.
 
rejenorst said:
Anthropoid said:
Not sure what you expect Israel to do? Ignore thousands of rockets, simply because they cause few casualties?

For starters it should probably not brake the ceasefire(s) on dubious or questionable grounds nor pursue questionable policies that seem to indicate ethnic cleansing or a seemingly will-full slaughter of civilians/collectivized punishment(s) that only ends up precipitating the very thing they then whine about (rocket attacks).

There were no Hamas rockets in 2008 until Israel broke the ceasefire (over an alleged tunnel):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c

The rockets themselves have little relevance therefore as a 'cause' for attack since Israel has launched attacks repeatedly over issues unrelated to the rockets thus making the rocket attacks a bi-product of military action over unrelated matters.

Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides. It’s true that the routine greeting in Hebrew is Shalom (peace) – shalom when one leaves and shalom when one arrives. And, at the drop of a hat, almost every Israeli will say he wants peace, of course he does. But he’s not referring to the kind of peace that will bring about the justice without which there is no peace and there will be no peace. Israelis want peace, not justice, certainly not anything based on universal values. Thus, “Peace, peace, when there is no peace.” Not only is there no peace: In recent years, Israel has moved away from even the aspiration to make peace. It has despaired utterly of it. Peace has disappeared from the Israeli agenda, its place taken by the collective anxieties that are systematically implanted, and by personal, private matters that now take precedence over all else.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112


And why should any response to the situation be anything but "mediocre?" Is a grandiose response somehow more meaningful? The way I see it, the way that you, I or anyone else on Earth "responds" to the situation is completely irrelevant to how the situation plays out. Billions of words exchanged by mass media, the blogosphere and would-be peace brokers have yet to change anything in the ongoing Arab-Israeli war so I have my doubts that a more extravagant, exceptional, or poignant response is going to make any difference now.

Why would a response to the sitaution need to be "potent?" How could it "potent?" I have no idea how a response to the situation could be "potent;" BAD! BAD! ISRAEL! There, is that potent enough?

Israel is going to do what they feel they need to do, and unless the rest of the world is ready to invade them and take away their sovereignty it makes very little difference what the world thinks.

I am not asking for a potent response. I am saying that the rocket attacks, as an excuse to bomb the Palestinians, has lost any of its relevance given that they are not even the cause for the current ongoing military bombardment. 

In any case your country supports Israel and vetoes most, if not all, the resolutions that are critical of Israel so until that changes the majority of global opinion(s) will indeed continue to be irrelevant.

Ah yes, the age-old "No they started it . . . no THEY started it . . ." debate, which takes us right back to what? The late 1800s?

From my perspective supporting Israel makes sense given they are the winners, and not to mention the fact Israel is not a failed state, and is about as democratic as any European democracy. I am perfectly aware of their savagery in war, of their harsh treatment, of the fact that Arab-Israelis are de facto second class citizens (despite being protected by Israeli law), of the abject poverty and suffering in Gaza. I am perfectly aware of each and every example of horror you can point out and of the role of the IDF, of Zionists (e.g., settlers, but also hawks) and of the general role of the nation-state of Israel in those horrors.

You do not need to point these things out as if they are a surprise to any of us, or some sort of revelation which will provoke a global public outcry that promises to cause Israel to surrender. We all know it is a war and in war there is horror. Short of being willing to be part of a nation or alliance that is willing to use equal horror to put a stop to the war, any sentiment is effectively hypocrisy in my opinion.

Unfortunately, despite repeated Israeli victories, it seems there can be no true peace until that victory is acknowledged and Palestinians swallow their pride and acknowledge defeat . . . else Palestinian extremists get their wish and drive the Jews into the sea.
 
Anthropoid said:
Ah yes, the age-old "No they started it . . . no THEY started it . . ." debate, which takes is right back to what? The late 1800s?

No actually its more the age-old 'The rockets have nothing to do with the current military attack therefore they're not relevant' and 'ethnic cleansing won't fix the situation' debate. The rockets being fired after the fact is not indicative of who started it its just a symptom of a wider problem that neither side wants peace or compromise.

From my perspective supporting Israel makes sense given they are the winners, and not to mention the fact Israel is not a failed state, and is about as democratic as any European democracy.

They are the winners thanks to the very support we give them. As for democracy; Hamas was voted in but I doubt very much that a democracy can survive in such a one sided war-zone. Either way Israel's democracy has been compared to an ethnocracy. Personally I couldn't care less but I wouldn't want to live there permanently if my ethnicity wasn't specifically Jewish.
https://www.cjpme.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DO=795&RecID=1156&DocumentID=2805&SaveMode=0

I am perfectly aware of their savagery in war, of their harsh treatment, of the fact that Arab-Israelis are de facto second class citizens (despite being protected by Israeli law), of the abject poverty and suffering in Gaza. I am perfectly aware of each and every example of horror you can point out and of the role of the IDF, of Zionists like settlers, and of the nation-state of Israel in general in those horrors.

You do not need to point these things out as if they are a surprise to any of us, or some sort of revelation which will provoke a global public response leading Israel to crumple into the fetal position and surrender.

Good, cause I wasn't planning to but we've gone from differences in 'irrelevant' to debates that I don't really care to have since we both know the brutality with which this war is being fought. I am happy to see you think the results justify the means in this war with the end goal of winning; trumping all humane acts of compassion. With democracies like these who needs Authoritarian occupations.

We all know it is a war and in war there is horror. Short of being willing to be part of a nation or alliance that is willing to use equal horror to put a stop to it, any sentiment is effectively hypocrisy in my opinion.

Which makes the rocket attacks all the more irrelevant as its just one small horror answering a greater one in the current circumstances. Glad we agree.

Unfortunately, despite repeated Israeli victories, it seems there can be no true peace until that victory is acknowledged and Palestinians swallow their pride and acknowledge defeat . . . else Palestinians get their wish and drive the Jews into the sea.

The Palestinians do not at currentl present an existential threat. The opportunities for peace have consistently been sabotaged and even Bibi is happy to admit his own role in that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-5hUG6Os68

I am certain that the Palestinians feel a burning hatred towards the Israelis that lends truth to that last statement but then the same statement can be applied the other way round. With gradual expulsions, bombings, blockading etc it may take a while but the result will likely be the same. In light of that I doubt they would utterly and completely bend the knee, whatever that entails.




 
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