Too expensive honor troops
- Thread starter Khaine
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bobknight
Sergeant at Arms
legione said:Khaine said:Actually it's very funny thing that everyone tells to attack uniques with order troops because quality > quantity, and now I am reading to not bring order troops against uniques, because they will be meat like everything else
I think that this is the real important point of all the speech. You are right and centers the point.
The POP dev said "ok, honor troops are very powerfoul, let's try to limit them" and they introduces the min renown cost.
For me, it was not a good idea, because the result is that the normal player will not use Honor Troops and will Marchall and zerg the powerfoul spawn. It is sad because Honor Troops are very cool, and because CKO are a great idea.
One solution can be "you cannot bring with you more than 40 Honor Troops together" but this create some other problems.
Anyway, min renown cost is not a solution for me.
The "14 surgery is too OP" is not an answer.
Warband give you to create different kind of characters: int based, agi based, char based, str based. So it's not good that "a str based cannot bring honor troops because they will die, an int based character can do it because he can use OP surgery".
Second, there is a basic chance of 25% that a troop get unconscious with a blow, and a 4% for each point of surgery.
This means 69% at 11 Surgery (Companion surgery 10 + your Character surgery 2) (str based character, for example)
This means 82% at 14 Surgery (your Character surgery 10) (int based character).
This means that with 100 losses, a normal surgery party will loose 31 troops, an "OP" surgery party will looses 18 troops. I don't think it is enough to say "14 surgery is OP". Loose 18 troops means loose 180 Renown.
So, Honor Troops are too precious to use them in battle. Min Renown cost 10 means that the normal POP player will use them in really few battles, and this FOR ME is sad. Please, read carefully: "FOR ME". It is my opinion, not the great truth of the universe.
Luckly, this is NOT a problem. The normale POP player will simply use few Honor Tropps, and will use a lot of Pendor Troops to zerg, Ravenstern Ranger and Fierdsvan for siege, Ravenstern Horseman and Pendor Knights for tough field battle and will have a great time with this mod, and will have a chance to fulfill the prophecy, even without that fragile, super-expensive, mega-exclusive Honor Troops.
Peace and love to all.
Unless you want the same kind of honor troops, even if you only create 1 or 2 chapters, the free chapters scattered across the cities means you have a steady supply of honor troops even if you don't buy anything. Each chapter generates between 1-3 knights every other week or so and generates about 1-2 sergeants every week. Thats about 50-100 renown worth of knights every month. Assuming you fight a huge battle that loses you 18-20 knights every month or so, that basically means 2 established chapters will allow you to break even without spending a dime. Losing 180-200 renown per ultra high impact fight (read: unique spawns or fighting with their king) isn't a terribly high cost if you consider that you almost immediately make back between 30-50 renown, then you replenish another 50-100 by passive gain from a few chapters AND you can get more free troops from the chapter quests.
If you are diligent with capturing unique spawns like I am, each kill is an investment of about 100-200 renown for a steady flow of 30-40 renown worth of knights a month(or maybe more) from the qualis gems. You make back your loss in renown in 2-3 month (counting the initial renown gain from the fight itself). If you are a gem rat like I am, you can put up a CKO/KHO chapter in every city and castle you own. At that point, you have more knights than you really know what to do with. In one of my longer running campaigns (where I didn't conquer pendor for a good 700-800 days), I ended up stuffing most of my knights in militia patrols and I was churning out 100+ men knighthood order patrols every other week near my holdings. I had something like 600-700 full fledged knights doing my village patrols for me.
It's not so much that surgery is OP by itself, thats why I listed other 3 separate solutions. Even by itself, 10 surgery is more than enough to sustain your general CKO/KHO use if you use them sparingly. Combining all 3 means that you will have more knights than you can ever afford to upkeep and you will NEVER run out of knights to use even if they end up being the primary troop type you use.
legione
Regular
I am not sure about this 1-3 knights each week story. I founded Ebony Gauntlet in my first castle, around day 100/150.
Now I am at day 550 and have 33 of them. Probably 10-12 of them died in avampost fight (the only fight in which I use them). Too few to form an army.
And Qualis Gems does not grow on trees, so I can't create another Ebony Chapter in each castle.
But yes, you can create a good Honor Troops Force IF you have half of Pendor and IF you give to yourself each Castle-Town with a Chapter instead of give them to your lords, and IF mixed honor troops are good to you. I think it is not enough to say "10 renown is a good price for a single honor troop".
I repeat: I am not searching "a solution". I will not use Honor Troops, this is still a solution. But for me 10 renown is a irrealistic high price that the medium POP player will not pay, so in a lot of POP games will be few honor troops in the fields. This is not a problem, simply a bit sad for me.
And I repeat: if the problem is that Honor Troops are OP and the dev wants to limit the use, maybe that there are other way to do it, like to limit the available of noble recruits.
Now I am at day 550 and have 33 of them. Probably 10-12 of them died in avampost fight (the only fight in which I use them). Too few to form an army.
And Qualis Gems does not grow on trees, so I can't create another Ebony Chapter in each castle.
But yes, you can create a good Honor Troops Force IF you have half of Pendor and IF you give to yourself each Castle-Town with a Chapter instead of give them to your lords, and IF mixed honor troops are good to you. I think it is not enough to say "10 renown is a good price for a single honor troop".
I repeat: I am not searching "a solution". I will not use Honor Troops, this is still a solution. But for me 10 renown is a irrealistic high price that the medium POP player will not pay, so in a lot of POP games will be few honor troops in the fields. This is not a problem, simply a bit sad for me.
And I repeat: if the problem is that Honor Troops are OP and the dev wants to limit the use, maybe that there are other way to do it, like to limit the available of noble recruits.
legione said:
Chapters only fill garrison up to thirty-something knights and fifty-something sergeants; If you want it to produce more, move those knights first
By the time you have them at 10 prestige cost you should have enough renown and recruits to fill your whole party with high-quality knights, and that enough to crush everything on the map.
bobknight
Sergeant at Arms
legione said:
You hit the replenishing maximum for each chapter, you need to take them out before they'll respawn more.
Wrong. You need TWO castles to effectively negate a massive loss every month. There are 18 towns and 30+ castles in pendor, if you take 1/5 of them and fill it with order troops, you will be able to fight every other day(and lose 20+ troops each fight) without ever running out of troops. most of the time you won't be throwing away 100+ casualties, and the only engagements that you will are unique spawns and major noble parties(Kings + high ranking lords). Unless you are getting 5 way gangbanged, you literally cannot find enough fights to cause 20+ troops worth of casualties(assuming 10 surgery) every other day in a normal play through.
You really shouldn't be giving away the noble troop garrisons to lords anyway. I don't see how this is an 'if'.
So essentially what you are after is for the game to give you a way to give you an infinite supply of a single type of noble troops at virtually no cost. Yes? There is a way to do that, it's called cheating.
So it isn't a problem, but it is a problem? Make up your mind.
Noble recruits ARE limited. You only get a few a week and they are fricking expensive. The devs put up a renown limit because they didn't want to put all of their limitations on removing noble recruits from the picture. It makes no sense that you should be able to upgrade your regular knights into noldor nobles at the cost of a measly 2 renown and nothing else.
If you have issue with the renown change, then come up with a better suggestion. You have only done whining thus far without coming up with any constructive alternatives. Is renown cap the perfect solution? no, but it is a very simple one that works well because renown/honor often scales with your progress in the game and it is a good approximation of how much of the map you have conquered (and thus how many honor troops should be available to you). It is easy to implement and it is rather elegant.
Bravado
Sergeant
He's right about how much stronger 14 surgery is than 11 surgery - that extra 3 points is HUGE, so I always go int build. Plus then with 14 FA, my companions level up so much faster and become battlefield powerhouses as you will have to knock them down like 7 times before they cannot participate in anymore battles.
The thing is that qualis gems do grow in trees for me (with enough time), so I can have over 30 in all stats (also with enough time) since I can get str, agi and cha from qualis gems.
The thing is that qualis gems do grow in trees for me (with enough time), so I can have over 30 in all stats (also with enough time) since I can get str, agi and cha from qualis gems.
May I introduce you to the (free) Falcons
legione
Regular
Oh. Interesting. Thank you.
I was talking about find cities and castles with a order, wihout the need of creating it.
Mount and Blade is a sandbox. Each one play it in his own manner.
You did not read what I wrote. Read it, carefully, trying to figure it out and then maybe we'll talk again about it.
Do you know the difference between "problem" and "something sad"...?
Again, if you read carefully, you'll understand better.
Listen, I suggest the solution that is resonable to me, not the one you want to listen.
If you don't like my solution, it is your problem, not mine.
It is a suggestion. Do you know what is a suggestion? If the dev don't like my solution, they will not use it. Simple, isn't it?
There is no reason to be angry.
I am not whining. I also said that the cost is not a problem.
I only say that FOR ME should be better to have the chance to use more troops in the mod. Again, read the post should be useful to understand a speech.
This is not to whine. You are going angry only because my opinion is different from your. Respect other's opinion should be a good thing.
For you the cost is right.
For me, it is not.
What's the problem?
