Too expensive honor troops

I started new game with latest patch, and I think honor troops are now too expensive in renown. We need to have hundreds of honor + very good relations with that order, and I suppose minimum price for any knight is 10 renown. It is just too much to make it affordable.

For example to get about 30 renown, we need to put ourselves in pretty bloody battle with enemy having about 2x more troops than us. I tend to be archer focused, because it's the best tactics to minimise loses (just need to have some sturdy cavarly + myself as a knight, take enemy aggro on myself and let the archers do their job). But in such battles it's just impossible to avoid loses. I have 10 surgery and even now I tend to lose about 5-10 Ravenstern Rangers and few Ravenstern Knights in big battles. And I don't think Silvermist Rangers are so much better than Ravenstern Rangers (or later Pendor Grey Archers), that they will not die AT ALL (these troops would have to be immortal to make this rational) to make them useful in any way. Same thing goes for Griffon or other "classical" knights (I have now order quest using Griffon Knights and they die just like normal "cheap" Ravenstern Knights). They are not as much better to spend loads of renown (you lose 3 honor troops and you are most probably in minus in prestige after battle, and in big, serious battle you can easily lose even 20+).

Old minimum for honor troops was, as far as I remember 2 renown. This makes a BIG difference. I could train 100 silvermists for 200 renown, and it was a good price. Even if some of them died in bloodbath, there was no problem to train new ones. But now I go to my castle and see price of 30 renown per one silvermist (and it will take dozens of hours to reach minimal 10)! It's totally irrational, and no one sane would ever spend so much for not so much exclusive troops (we would spend all our prestige in a moment, even if we had few thousands). I would rather just take 30 more Ravenstern Rangers or Pendor Grey Archers than buy honor troops.

I know that this renown is not really spent and making our party smaller, but even with minimal price of 10 (which would take loads of work to get) we need to have 1000 prestige for 100 honor troops. It just makes these troops not economical anymore. One more powerful unique spawn or army will cut through these troops anyway, and it's just better to use regular troops in higher numbers than to bother with ultra-expensive (in renown) honor soldiers.

I know they are supposed to be exclusive, but let's be honest that they are not THAT special to bother with them anymore and treat them like eggs, and be afraid to send them to battle, because we cannot afford to train them in big numbers. Empire Immortals and Shadow Legion Knights are the only honor troops +/- worth their price at the moment, because they are overpowered to Noldor levels. We can train lots of Hero Adventurers and we will most probably end up better than with usage of honor troops (Hero Adventurer is twice as good as Griffon Knight with at least Silvermist Ranger archery ability). Hero Adventurers are very expensive in upkeep, but gold is not as big problem as prestige. We can always win some tournaments + city, castle and few villages and be able to afford 100 hero adventurers party.

I think you just went too far with honor troops prices making almost all of them absolutely not usable anymore. And I will not even say anything about CKO, where prestige prices are totally ridiculous. We need to spend about half million denars + wait at least half a year in-game-time to have them usable + we need to spend about 20 prestige per one? I know they will be overpowered just like Noldors then, but hey! Noldors can die too! And they die, and they will die often in big battles. Better save those half million denars for upkeeps of Hero Adventurers.

First of all it is a war game so taking losses is natural, even if you are a tactical genius there are powerful troops in the game that can single shot your troops.

The main reason honor troops cost a lot, is to keep the game interesting for you. Otherwise if the game allowed you to easily get 300 Shadow Legion Centurions then you would roflstomp pretty much anything moving on the map. And if you upgrade them 5 times they could easily go toe to toe with the Noldor.

The CKO feature is perfectly balanced, considering you can create Knights that can devour anything you throw at them. By the time they are fully trained/equipped you should have conquered most of Pendor.

Also you don't need to waste any prestige to induct troops to your Order, you can create 2-3 chapters in different fiefs you own and simply wait for the garrisons to be reinforced with Knights/Sergeants.

Yeah, but there is one problem. Only Shadow Legions and Immortals are worth their price. Silvermists are too weak to be affordable (and die like some peasant infantry), other orders IMO aren't so good too. If someone is not playing as Empire, then we have a problem. Spend such enormous amounts of prestige on dragon knights? Damn nope.

Also free knights and sergeants are not so eager to appear in garrisons. Not in numbers needed to make them core of the army. Better to train and lose even 100 ravenstern rangers than wait months for several knights because of their costs.

Silvermists are exceptional in sieges, both as attackers and defenders. In open field battles they suffer like other archers do, because there is always enemy cavalry/infantry that can take them out.

If you are looking for durable troops try the Ebony Gauntlets:

- very proficient with crossbows
- heavily armored
- devastating when forced to fight in melee combat
- cheaper upkeep since they are dismounted

Regarding other Orders you can try:

Knights of the Dawn / Knights of Eventide are very tough since they are well armored and highly proficient.

I defended Laria with 150 Ravenstern Rangers + peasant mob making battle advantage against 1200 sarleon army + Syla Uzas. With garrison full of any high level archers siege is impossible to win. But not every siege is winnable only with archers. Also Ebony Gauntlets are problematic because of their bounty quests. I have 80 relations with Noldor, and hunting them is not an option.

Though I am of the same opinion that not all Knight Chapters are evenly balanced out, it's not as extreme as you say.

No offense, but making proper use and having the proper tactics with troops is important as well.

On the contrary, I myself have used Silvermist and other orders as well, and am quite satisfied with the result.
Similarly, I myself have not much use for Hero Adventurers....they're so generalistic and randomly equipped, that I have no spot for them in my battles...not in major numbers anyway.

I am not saying that as a good player, you SHOULD be able to use all troops effectively, I'm saying that it's just a result of your playstyle, that you find Hero Adventurers useful = many other Knight Orders useless.
Similar to how I find Hero Adventurers useless = other Knight orders useful (and no, I do not use Shadow Legion often).

There is no tactics that will avoid big loses against elite troops like Wolfbode Honor Guard, Anaconda Knights etc. You may use tactics against enemy lords, but to beat them you don't even need noble troops, you would do well with peasant army (since their armies are not elite). And unique spawns or large armies will tear honor troops apart anyway, even if you are brilliant as Napoleon (siege is an exception, archers are devastating anything on siege). Alone brute force of these units is absolutely enough to make big loses in your army. That's why I think it's better to lose 4 units that are easy to replace, than to 1 lose unit eating our prestige so fast. Also maybe not even these minimum 10 prestige per troop is such problem, but getting these minimum cost is a big problem. But still 10 prestige is very expensive for most honor units. I care very much for my archers, and I don't expect big loses in my Silvermists, but Silvermists like to die anyway. Their equipment is just rather weak.

There is one:
Do not bring archers against them. Anything will suffer a lot of pain from these troops and fielding a huge amount archers against lots of heavy cavalry with excellent shooting back abilities isn´t a smart thing to do as commander.

Just like it is a very, very unhealthy idea to F3 a ton of cavalry into something like Empire Immortals, Armoured Pikers, Sarleon Halberdiers or Mettenheim 2h Sword infantry or Ebony Gauntlet Hammerer (Ask the Heretic Army, Demonic Magni are poleaxed by the score from them).

So cease whining and bring cheaper, more expendable troops into your bloody field battles. Or create your own order to get what you want.

Noone designed those unique spawns to be easily defeated by some inflexible lamearse whimp who wants to snipe anything and bob´s uncle from far away - on the contrary, some of those spawns are exclusively designed to give experienced players and certain kinds of playstyle severe headaches.

The fact that Silvermist Rangers are on the lower end of the order list stat and equipment wise is well known and will be worked on.

Actually it's very funny thing that everyone tells to attack uniques with order troops because quality > quantity, and now I am reading to not bring order troops against uniques, because they will be meat like everything else Actually I think the best tactics against big armies is to become marshal and swarm them with thousands of cheap(er) troops in autocalc. Fighting for example Dread Legion alone is barely possible to win, and will always end with bloodbath no matter what we do.

And I am not talking only about Silvermists there. Are you sure Griffon Knights are now worth their price in prestige compared to normal Pendor Knights? Immortals and Shadow Legions surely are still worth their price, because they are hard as hell and also throw javellins (and they are by far the best units in game not counting noldors). It's all about cost-effectiveness. We can field Pendor Knights even in hundreds if we want to (and nobody will cry if someone will die charging enemy infantry), but we can't do such thing with order cavarly.  And the problem is that heavy cavarly just like to die, as they take worst beating together with heavy infantry.

And I will say it again - I commanded Griffons recently and they took some beating even from Sarleon Armored Longbowmen (which are not halberdiers or Immortals). Cavarly just die sometimes, even fighting their favourite enemy - archers. And these battles do not give enough renown to justify using Griffons rather than normal Pendor Knights. So the point is - what should I use Griffons for if I cannot afford to lose them?

You aren´t reading carefully enough.
I said bring the proper troops. Silvermist Rangers are proper troops against heavy cavalry, if the terrain favours them (=strong defensive position which will break the charge of cavalry like a steep slope or a river, with enough powerful backup to mob the survivers.

There are weaker and stronger orders but every one has it´s one flavour. And if you´re a min/maxer anyways, you shouldn´t use Silvermist Rangers at all but avoid them.

If not, you´ll value the flavour they add and pick them for the certain beloved and acquainted taste they give your game.

Why should you use Griffons if you can´t afford to lose them? Why are you asking such a question? If you can´t afford to use them, don´t use them in meaningless battles or get them at all. Why are you assuming that fighting the very challenge of PoP - the unique army spawns - should be as easy or less costly than stomping a horde of peasants? One doesn´t throw away elite troops in fodder fights. They´re precious.

If it wasn´t for the totally overpowererd effect of high surgery, I´d depopulate large parts of Pendor due to conscription for those epic battles. The downside is, upkeep raises and raises. 

Apart from that I rarely use order troops at all and if, usually Knights of the Ebony Gauntlet because they´re simply frightening, despite the ugly helmet and tons of free ones from chapterhouses of the cities I captured or own.

Furthermore, there´s nothing wrong with using masses of Pendor Knights or the even more awesome Pendor Foot Knight. They´re meant for killing stuff and they work well enough most of the times. I really like them. Which is the reason why they got a few of the more fancy pieces of equipment. 

Your main concern seems to be an issue with raising reknown? Unless you´re playing on huge battlesizes 5-10k reknwon in a medium 1000 days game shouldn´t be too hard to gather, and that´s a whooping 200-400 honor knights@25 a piece, not counting any order quest rewards or the automatically added garrisons.

That´s pretty much enough order firepower to dominate Pendor and anything else upon it.

Fighting anything on Pendor alone is possible and does not end in a bloodbath. I´ve got like 50 saves to proof that, but it´s a matter of patience because the only thing which beats my 650+ army size fully mustered and in force is payday.

"If it wasn´t for the totally overpowererd effect of high surgery"

What do you mean? It stacks over 10?

Khaine said:

"If it wasn´t for the totally overpowererd effect of high surgery"

What do you mean? It stacks over 10?

Click to expand...

Yes if your character has 10 points in surgery you also get the +4 bonus so in total you got 14.

High surgery is OP, i brought around 300 CKO vs Wolfbode and lost only 10 in total

shoshuro said:

Khaine said:

"If it wasn´t for the totally overpowererd effect of high surgery"

What do you mean? It stacks over 10?

Click to expand...

Yes if your character has 10 points in surgery you also get the +4 bonus so in total you got 14.

High surgery is OP, i brought around 300 CKO vs Wolfbode and lost only 10 in total

Click to expand...

I was under the impression that, at least in native, you'd never actually benefit from having more than 10 points (total, including the bonus) in any party skill. The party screen will still display 10+4, of course, but the effect would cap at 10 points. 'Course, I'm going on memory here so I could be wrong, and/or things could be different in the mod.

From native wiki:

This means that party skills can obtain a maximum level of 14 when the player character is trained up to level 10.

Click to expand...

Use qualis gems :>. PoP should be played like a long campaing game. You start with a weakiing peasant, and finish like a total OP hero, warband engine cant handle   I never used nobles per money recruit. Just spam order chapters in few towns and castles  and you will be able too gather them in numbers and solo all unique spawns + pendor map with one rush.

Haha...why don't you see this as an extra challenge?

Finding and working on a strategy that's keep your casualties low...as well as getting enough reknown, so you can field a big army and take on a unique spawn on your own!

I can only tell you it's possible...dread legion, syla uzas...pretty mean, I take losses, but if I face them with 1:1 armies, then I always win and lose maybe 10-20% of my troops...and it's not ALL order troops.
_________
Tactics: There's so much to try...for example have you ever tried splitting your cavalry in 2 or even 3 groups?
Anti-Cavalry to occupy enemy cavalry, Heavy Cavalry to rush infantry, and light infantry to accompany you while you flank the enemy armies' archers?

OR: Using Empire Legionnaires as shieldwall, immortals to back them up and destroy charging cavalry, and a group of berserkers to flank?

Every battle in PoP is difficult...but that's how epic memories and victories are made!

I still remember my joy, when I finally defeated my first Jatu army without losing the first 2 waves!

Also, regarding Silvermist rangers: There is a reason their sergeants are halberdiers. Combining the two gives you a pretty durable square of death, poking anything that comes near and shooting anything that stays away.

I play with my own rule where I cannot recruit any nobles.  I can only get honor troops by natural garrison increases or capturing prisoners I can upgrade.  This makes the game more fun IMO, I don't use honor troops for every battle, just the ones where I'm outnumbered and need them or against special spawns.  If you're looking to min/max, the sergeants are a better value usually if they fulfill the same role.  I'd rather have 2 Squires of the Lion than 1 Knight of the Lion.  It's even better with your custom knight order since you can equip both the same or nearly the same (I don't equip the same for aesthetic reasons).  By the way, I can't upgrade honor troop stats with money either as a rule.  The point is that you don't need honor troops at all to win or do well in PoP. 

noosers said:

You aren´t reading carefully enough.
I said bring the proper troops. Silvermist Rangers are proper troops against heavy cavalry, if the terrain favours them (=strong defensive position which will break the charge of cavalry like a steep slope or a river, with enough powerful backup to mob the survivers.

There are weaker and stronger orders but every one has it´s one flavour. And if you´re a min/maxer anyways, you shouldn´t use Silvermist Rangers at all but avoid them.

If not, you´ll value the flavour they add and pick them for the certain beloved and acquainted taste they give your game.

Why should you use Griffons if you can´t afford to lose them? Why are you asking such a question? If you can´t afford to use them, don´t use them in meaningless battles or get them at all. Why are you assuming that fighting the very challenge of PoP - the unique army spawns - should be as easy or less costly than stomping a horde of peasants? One doesn´t throw away elite troops in fodder fights. They´re precious.

If it wasn´t for the totally overpowererd effect of high surgery, I´d depopulate large parts of Pendor due to conscription for those epic battles. The downside is, upkeep raises and raises. 

Apart from that I rarely use order troops at all and if, usually Knights of the Ebony Gauntlet because they´re simply frightening, despite the ugly helmet and tons of free ones from chapterhouses of the cities I captured or own.

Furthermore, there´s nothing wrong with using masses of Pendor Knights or the even more awesome Pendor Foot Knight. They´re meant for killing stuff and they work well enough most of the times. I really like them. Which is the reason why they got a few of the more fancy pieces of equipment. 

Your main concern seems to be an issue with raising reknown? Unless you´re playing on huge battlesizes 5-10k reknwon in a medium 1000 days game shouldn´t be too hard to gather, and that´s a whooping 200-400 honor knights@25 a piece, not counting any order quest rewards or the automatically added garrisons.

That´s pretty much enough order firepower to dominate Pendor and anything else upon it.

Fighting anything on Pendor alone is possible and does not end in a bloodbath. I´ve got like 50 saves to proof that, but it´s a matter of patience because the only thing which beats my 650+ army size fully mustered and in force is payday.

Click to expand...

Uhhhmmm you dont like the ebony knight helmets? Theres a morghs tool that fixes that problem.

How do you manage that 600+ troops dont desert you? I barely managed to keep my 240 honor troop army in line, everything over that caused a morally loss and made my army dwindle.

also on what day do you actually play?

Boosting morale at inns, or your own castles (throw a feast) for even cheaper...it's still very costly in the long run though.