My thoughts on the mod after a few days (feedback)

Hi again.

So first, i like to point out how much fun it is to play, even more so after the still fresh memory of the disappointment that was Rome2:Total War, especially for me cause ive read the Anabasis shortly before and was eager to fight some hoplite warfare myself - something that gets even less attention from game studios than linebattles with Muskets. An if you played rome2, you might judge how disappointed i was if that was the main thing i was looking for.
(Like: Phalanx? Yeah, thats something purely defensive, you cant attack with it. Oh and a wall of bronze with spears and swords coming out of it doesnt have any particular killing power, no ...)

But, after a few days of playing RaW i came across some features that i didnt enjoy as much as the others, so i wanted to give a little feedback on them mostly.

So, in no particular order:

Army sizes are to big
While i at first toughed it is great that you have that much troops, especially for sieges, it can get annoying that every battle you fight consists of at least 2 separate rounds, as it wores you down, even more if its repeatedly against armys that you crush because of their low/ your high quality of troops anyway.

The Romans are too weak
I havent played them myself yet, but after i amassed some wealth trough campaigning in the army of the basileus of koinon hellenon, i bought myself 250 heavy hoplites and went over to the romans to do some mercenary work for them and build up some relations, and soon found out that a 125 hastatsus "pirate faction" army dies to my hoplites without killing more than 3-4 of my men and wounding another 4.
So i went back to greece, leveled some more, and with ~400 hoplites first chased down the roman armies, and with them out of the way, still had around 350 left with which i started to lay siege to the first castle (where i expected huge losses on the walls)
But even in the very confined spaces of the walls and staircases, my hoplites simply cut trough the princeps and centurios, with about 40 dead and 40 wounded on my side for 400 dead enemys.

My Kingdoms color is red
Maybe i missed the window where i could choose it, but having red as "your" color while your only possesions are in roman territory, with whom your at war with, can get annoying if you spent another half ingame-day chasing down your own caravan again

Some helenic UI texts are white letters on white marble
For, uh, security reasons, i cant remember which one, but some are just not readable. If i come upon them again, ill update this one.

No woods?
Altough i like the fact that they dont slow you down everywhere because there are none, it would be nice to have some to hide in during the day if you have to pass trough enemy territory.

Map is to small/travel speed to high
Im aware that the current populated area is only a fraction of what to come, but still think you shouldnt be able to get from the po plain to laconia in 2 days.

Too many citizens
While its great for immersion, i dont do the "kill somebody" or "meet with the spy" quests anymore, because it takes to much time for to little reward to find them among the dozens of people.

One of my Lords calls himself king
Since i gave Abrupolis a rat-infested village as a fief, he runs around calling himself "King Abrupolis". Once i have another dude with with a high leadership skill, i think ill have do away with him.

No titties
I was so happy when i found one of those skirts with only one shoulder strap, that the greek archers wear, for my female party member, but when i gave it to her, what i saw was horrifying
(Just kidding on this one)

Some thoughts on freelancer
Its a fun thing to do and great way to get some cash for the start, but it lets you recover from the greatest peril with ease, while i like that nerve-tickling in the vanilla game when you spent your money on troops to achieve something, and it couldnt go wrong because then you would be left with neither troops no money.
Maybe reduce it to be able to enlist only once in the army of a given faction, or only once at all?

Thats basically it, and apart from those minor things, its a very fun mod to play with a high quality and polish of the parts yet integrated, thank you very very much for it, im looking forward to the things to come and conquer.

Regards
By-now basileus of the romanoi and all the hellenes, except the lacedaemonians,
hausser


Oh, and one minor thing, shouldnt piraeus be to the left of athens?

1) Get battlesizer or whatever it's called and crank up battlesizes, though that might affect performance

2) Can't comment on that before you tell your difficulty settings and without knowing the details of the army compositions. Though you could take a look at TweakMB for this.

3) I do believe this can be changed with TweakMB, which is great in general for making adjustments to mods: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,101731.0.html

4) UI mod issue, I haven't had time to fix it as of yet, not to mention I'm still not quite sure what screen it is as I can't track it down

5) My best guess is that this is a performance thing

6) The map is sure as hell not too small but it's hard to find a balance between the personal preferences of all people. And we will fill more of the map as time goes by.

7) "Kill somebody" guest: I assume you mean killing a random dude in a village. Well, they're immobile and always spawn in the same locations so that shouldn't be too big of an issue as they're a bit... obvious "Meet spy" yeah I agree, hard to believe there's no visual sign of who the spy is, running around saying random sentences to people would probably attract a lot more attention than say a flower in your hand

Might be a bug, or he just went crazy with power

9) Women didn't fight enough for us to bother making them whole new models any time soon

10) Seeing as basically anyone could get employed by an army back then it's not really fitting to put arbitrary limitations on it.

Ps: This reply may not represent the views of the team and may in fact be the ramblings of the silliest member

KickingJoub said:

1) Get battlesizer or whatever it's called and crank up battlesizes, though that might affect performance

Click to expand...

Ive tried that, but while its still somewhat playable at 300, its not really fun anymore, and doesnt help either because most armys are still bigger.
Maybe just do away with the stop of reinformencts? So the battle goes on till one side retreats or is no more.
[quote author=KickingJoub]
[Romans to weak]
2) Can't comment on that before you tell your difficulty settings and without knowing the details of the army compositions. Though you could take a look at TweakMB for this.
[/quote]
I've bought the game a week ago, so i havent tempered with the difficulty settings as im still exploring game mechanics
But i guess when npcs fighting npcs it shouldnt make any difference? I sadly cant try it because there arent any romans left in my savegame ...
My army was greek city state hoplites in linothoraxes or better only, the romans brought their kitchen sink compositions of all they have availible.
And its not that i beat other greeks or the macedonians with ease(I havent realy fought the gauls yet), they cause havoc under my man sometimes, but they romans where just childs play.
[quote author=KickingJoub]
[same color as romans]
3) I do believe this can be changed with TweakMB, which is great in general for making adjustments to mods: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,101731.0.html
[/quote]
I'll try that out, thx
[quote author=KickingJoub]
[white text on white marble]
4) UI mod issue, I haven't had time to fix it as of yet, not to mention I'm still not quite sure what screen it is as I can't track it down
[/quote]
It was one big wall of text (with no hyperlinks), maybe in the context of founding my kingdom. But i guess that doesnt help at all...
As i said, once i see it again, ill update the OP
[quote author=KickingJoub]
6) The map is sure as hell not too small but it's hard to find a balance between the personal preferences of all people. And we will fill more of the map as time goes by.
[/quote]
Nah not too small, thats right. but on the strategic map, it feels like im commanding a tank platoon, not a hoplite army
[quote author=KickingJoub]
7) "Kill somebody" quest: I assume you mean killing a random dude in a village. Well, they're immobile and always spawn in the same locations so that shouldn't be too big of an issue as they're a bit... obvious
[/quote]
Once you know the locations, yeah, but im new
And some of the villagers get blocked or wont move for whatever else reason, which doesnt make it easier.
[quote author=KickingJoub]
10) Seeing as basically anyone could get employed by an army back then it's not really fitting to put arbitrary limitations on it.
[/quote]
Yeah, its just that if you know theres this safety-net, the game feels a lot easier, even if you never need it and all goes well.

Oh one more thing, i had this battle with only my army against half the gauls, something around 1000 men, and in the battle, it just spawned me a mere handfull of troops, not even enough to put them into formation.
Im aware that that was a representation of the number of both armies on the strategic map, but i would have liked 10 waves of reinforcments á 100 men each much better, as its something that can be won by high quality tropps and pushes at the right time of melee.

1) [battle size] I'll look into it, I'm sure our coder can reply better when he gets here and tells me I've been doing everything wrong
2) [difficulty] I have no recollection of the default settings, but I do believe that they might be causing your soldiers to take decreased damage, take a look at the options menu and report back. Personally I've only played on full damage to everything and let you me tell you, that's seriously brutal business.
6) [campaign speeds] Like I said, personal preference and some people (like me) just either don't have the time or patience to spend 2 weeks ingame time to get from Rome to Sicily It would make sieges more interesting if the response force took more than 30 seconds to arrive though.

hausser said:

Oh one more thing, i had this battle with only my army against half the gauls, something around 1000 men, and in the battle, it just spawned me a mere handfull of troops, not even enough to put them into formation.
Im aware that that was a representation of the number of both armies on the strategic map, but i would have liked 10 waves of reinforcments á 100 men each much better, as its something that can be won by high quality tropps and pushes at the right time of melee.

Click to expand...

Yeah but 10 waves would be extremely gamey. If I had 4-5 times more men than my enemy I would just smash them to pieces, this mod isn't really meant to be easy

[quote author=KickingJoub]
6) [campaign speeds] Like I said, personal preference and some people (like me) just either don't have the time or patience to spend 2 weeks ingame time to get from Rome to Sicily It would make sieges more interesting if the response force took more than 30 seconds to arrive though.
[/quote]
Just as a thought, maybe as an option in the camp?
[quote author=KickingJoub]
Yeah but 10 waves would be extremely gamey.
[/quote]
But bringing 300 guys with you and having 12 actually showing up for battle ...
[quote author=KickingJoub]
If I had 4-5 times more men than my enemy I would just smash them to pieces
[/quote]
Ah, yeah, right, whats it called again? King Xerxes attack? Queen Boudica maneuver ?

[quote author=hausser]
[quote author=KickingJoub]
6) [campaign speeds] Like I said, personal preference and some people (like me) just either don't have the time or patience to spend 2 weeks ingame time to get from Rome to Sicily It would make sieges more interesting if the response force took more than 30 seconds to arrive though.
[/quote]
Just as a thought, maybe as an option in the camp?
[/quote]
I have no idea how they're handled so I'll let Seek answer.

[quote author=hausser]
[quote author=KickingJoub]
Yeah but 10 waves would be extremely gamey.
[/quote]
But bringing 300 guys with you and having 12 actually showing up for battle ...
[/quote]
Sadly that's how Warband works, what battlesize are you playing with? As they should only have 3.33333.... times more troops, though it might have something weird in it.

[quote author=hausser]
[quote author=KickingJoub]
If I had 4-5 times more men than my enemy I would just smash them to pieces
[/quote]
Ah, yeah, right, whats it called again? King Xerxes attack? Queen Boudica maneuver ?
[/quote]
No, it's called the Not-being-a-retard-and-fighting-in-a-horrible-position - maneuver

'lo,
1- Personally I prefer larger armies but without going too far of course, I think currently it's fine as it is. It's more meaningful to be outnumber 2 to 1 when it's 400 vs 200 than 40 vs 20 and allows to have more diversified armies. After that it's a matter of balancing later the recovery rates of armies without making it too easy for the player too.

2- I recommend playing at max difficulty settings or at least set the Battle and Campaign AI to good and normal damage for your troops because if you have an elite army and reduced damage for them it's fairly obvious that most won't stand a chance. While the Romans don't particularly excel in field battles most of the time they can occasionally put a good fight, they are at their best in siege defence where they slaughtered my Gallic army that usually crushed them in open fields.

3- That can be arranged later, I didn't bother with it yet.

4- Joub answered, if it causes too much trouble you can always remove it until it gets fixed.

5- We didn't make the map ourselves, we are using this one until we can make something on our own. It isn't the most pretty but it's fairly well optimised.

6- Same as for the color thing, it can be arranged later, maybe with a camp option so you set it to your liking.

7- It's meant to be that way, Warband scenes are too small and empty of life and our custom scenes are a bit larger so it works well with ours but get too crowded in Native scenes. It's a matter of time to get it fixed.

8- I smell betrayal, it is a bad sign when a ruler gets the king title, take a look at what it did with the Diadochi.

9- Making women variants of the armors would take an eternity, sorry but it's not worth the trouble.

10- It wasn't uncommon for soldiers to switch allegiance during a campaign, Agathoclès of Syracuse enlisted in a syracusan army during a campaign against the city states of Magna Graecia which he later joined. He managed to earn a name for himself and eventually take control of an army until he captured Syracuse to himself. He's a King now in the timeframe of the mod, he even led a campaign in Carthaginian territory, read a bit of his story it's very interesting with some incredible plot twists  If the movie industry wasn't so ****ed up I would wish for a movie about his life even if he's not that much of a nice guy either but he's got things to tell.

hausser said:

Oh one more thing, i had this battle with only my army against half the gauls, something around 1000 men, and in the battle, it just spawned me a mere handfull of troops, not even enough to put them into formation.
Im aware that that was a representation of the number of both armies on the strategic map, but i would have liked 10 waves of reinforcments á 100 men each much better, as its something that can be won by high quality tropps and pushes at the right time of melee.

Click to expand...

Invest in the tactics skill, if it is higher than your enemies' you get to field more troops.

Ok i started a new game on with the highest difficulty settings, got some money and went to the romans with an hoplite army of 200 again, and found a roman army with 100 hastatus, 75 horse and around 30 skirmishers, engaged, and i had 6 losses for all but a few skirmishers killed.
I think the romans arent really attacking using the formations, they always come as a deep column to my phalanx, then i let my guys advance 10 steps and that column becomes enveloped in hoplons and doris on threes sides.

Okay here is my test battle with difficulty settings, lost half my army against the Hastati + Equites + Velites combo which is the weakest of the Romans:

I guess that balancing issue has nothing to do with weak roman infantry but with the player giving sensible orders. My army of largely evocati hastati (taking normal damage) slaughters greeks with minimal casualties...

And in huge battles, when most of the roman troops are commanded by the ai both sides take heavy casualties and the side superior in numbers usually wins...

but concerning balancing - I don't see a way to use sarrissae in warband with the effect they ought to to have, especially against infantry. Whenever legionairies or hoplites raise their shields they'll close the distance without punishment und kill the phalangites. When I had some phalangites in my army i usually ordered them to use their sidearms which made them way more effective in fighting infantry.

When I used pikemen in the SP, I usually had them go behind my hoplites or other infantry, where they could use their pikes and not get slaughtered.
Was quite effective, really.

Yeah that's a good way to use them. But with some praticing you can win with only phalangits, you "just" have to fing the perfect timing and order them to stand the closer they can.

You can also support them with skirmishers hitting your ennemies' right side. (Thraikans pelast are the most up to the task to me)