Something out of nothing - philosophical topic.

Users who are viewing this thread

This topic is a philosophical question as much as a scientific one, as it so happens I too have been tormented by existential thoughts lately, this one included, although not tormenting or frightening like, say, the realization that I will probably forever cease to exist after I die, but a most baffling and wondrous thing to ponder for sure.

I am quite baffled that some of you would just shrug away and dismiss this entire thread or the idea of pondering our very existence and go as far as to call it pointless. It's damn amazing to be aware of and capable of pondering the very root of everything, however hopeless the search for an ultimate answer may be. Even if it's there, who knows whether our puny minds can comprehend it. Or perhaps it's there, and it's simpler than we think. I personally believe we'll never know, and perhaps it is better that way. Still, I'll keep pondering my entire life, just because I can. :smile:

Now, something from nothing is a widely believed theory amongst respectable scientists who's field of work encompasses this (Harris, Dawkins, Krauss etc.) it is the most plausible (lack of an) answer that is most compatible, or rather, least non compatible with the big bang theory, as the bang is believed to have started from some sort of a singularity, and expanded into everything. What baffles me is just this "nothing" that seemingly had to be there first. Nothing is truly not a thing, it is not conceivable, as it is not a thing. Closest I can get is imagining black empty space, which is three things; space and color, and presumably time.(?)

Nothing is a philosophical idea describing lack of presence, nothing more. I believe nothing or nothingness cannot physically exist, and thus I believe that there must have always been something. This still leaves the questions of what that something is, and how, why and when everything begun - if it ever had a beginning. So of course - it answers nothing.

A friend of mine has a theory that there has always been energy, which to my understanding is the potential to "work", potential for something to occur, this is intriguing, perhaps because I cannot even begin to grasp energy in this context, but perhaps also because I lack most basic knowledge of working physics, if somebody who is more familiar with it could shed some light on this, other than the raw definition, It would be most appreciated!

What I would like to know is whether everything is an infinite multidimensional multiverse, and whether it is possible for other universes to have begun with laws of physics entirely different from those of our own universe, with minimal similarities to how even the most elementary things work, making your wildest fantasies a possibility. :razz:
 
YourStepDad said:
Now, something from nothing is a widely believed theory amongst respectable scientists who's field of work encompasses this (Harris, Dawkins, Krauss etc.)

Krauss is the only one there whose field of work could be said to encompass this.
 
momcilo94 said:
So, either:

- There has always been something, and nothing never was.

or

- Something came from nothing.

Both points sound equally impossible. If you ask me it's a miracle we even exist.
There's also the third answer of "We don't know all of the variables or even all of the pieces in play, so we can not hazard an informed guess". To break it into a binary 'was there something or was there nothing' you need to prove that the universe is a closed system that an outside force (from alternate dimensions to gods that care an awful lot about the shagging habits of stone age sheep herders and anything in between) could not affect. (Last I heard we're still trying to figure out if gravity is from an alternate universe or not, though I'm about a decade out of the loop on whether they've made any progress on that front.)

The next major hurdle is that time isn't a constant, and we've only scratched the surface on how far it can be bent. It's hard to say what existed or what could exist before time itself properly existed, which makes looking at the problem a couple billion years later a bit problematic.
 
Shatari said:
you need to prove that the universe is a closed system that an outside force

Isn't the definition of the universe contain absolutely everything :razz:? If not, surely the person asking the question is using it in a way that encompasses absolutely everything.
 
# Can matter be eternal, without the need of an eternal creator?

--> I believe it can't,  God created everything .

# Who created God then ?

--> Eternity implies everlastingness. If something is eternal, it does not depend on anything else for its existence and it can never pass away.
The creator that is eternal and caused the existence of other temporal things must be self-sufficient.
 
nomad1414 said:
# Can matter be eternal, without the need of an eternal creator?

--> I believe it can't,  God created everything .

What are your reasons for why you can't believe it? In what way is the quality of everlastingness mutually exclusive to the universe?
 
nomad1414 said:
# Can matter be eternal, without the need of an eternal creator?

--> I believe it can't,  God created everything .

# Who created God then ?

--> Eternity implies everlastingness. If something is eternal, it does not depend on anything else for its existence and it can never pass away.
The creator that is eternal and caused the existence of other temporal things must be self-sufficient.

7Q8kNxF.gif


Why is god eternal but nothing else is? Prove that matter/energy is not eternal. Why do you need god in the equation?

YourStepDad said:
I am quite baffled that some of you would just shrug away and dismiss this entire thread
Because some of us have seen this exact same topic far too many times already, smart ass. Very often it's also a thinly veiled disguise worn by some religious nutjob who then proceeds to demolish science and prove the existence of his chosen deity.
 
Then if you agree and decide to take up the worship of Apollo they tell you Apollo isn't good enough and you need to pick some demi-god instead. Screw that.
 
Swadius 2.0 said:
momcilo94 said:
Duh said:
I hear some people saying that there was never nothing, that there has always been some form of energy, but I want to know how has that energy come to be?
Their point is that there is no starting point, so your question is moot. There always has been something. Just consider circles and cycles as an example for a concept without end or beginning.

Yea but even for a cycle to exist it has to have a beginning of some kind.
From your experiences, have you ever seen something come from nothing? If from your experiences the only "creation" is one type of matter transforming into other matter, on what grounds do you justify that all matter has to be created when the prevailing experience and evidence is that it cannot?

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say there xD English is not my primary language so if you could rephrase that I would be grateful.

Swadius 2.0 said:
Shatari said:
you need to prove that the universe is a closed system that an outside force

Isn't the definition of the universe contain absolutely everything :razz:? If not, surely the person asking the question is using it in a way that encompasses absolutely everything.

Yep, even if you theorize that the creation of our universe was initiated from another one, it won't explain how that one came to existence.

YourStepDad said:
This topic is a philosophical question as much as a scientific one, as it so happens I too have been tormented by existential thoughts lately, this one included, although not tormenting or frightening like, say, the realization that I will probably forever cease to exist after I die, but a most baffling and wondrous thing to ponder for sure.

I am quite baffled that some of you would just shrug away and dismiss this entire thread or the idea of pondering our very existence and go as far as to call it pointless. It's damn amazing to be aware of and capable of pondering the very root of everything, however hopeless the search for an ultimate answer may be. Even if it's there, who knows whether our puny minds can comprehend it. Or perhaps it's there, and it's simpler than we think. I personally believe we'll never know, and perhaps it is better that way. Still, I'll keep pondering my entire life, just because I can. :smile:

Now, something from nothing is a widely believed theory amongst respectable scientists who's field of work encompasses this (Harris, Dawkins, Krauss etc.) it is the most plausible (lack of an) answer that is most compatible, or rather, least non compatible with the big bang theory, as the bang is believed to have started from some sort of a singularity, and expanded into everything. What baffles me is just this "nothing" that seemingly had to be there first. Nothing is truly not a thing, it is not conceivable, as it is not a thing. Closest I can get is imagining black empty space, which is three things; space and color, and presumably time.(?)

Nothing is a philosophical idea describing lack of presence, nothing more. I believe nothing or nothingness cannot physically exist, and thus I believe that there must have always been something. This still leaves the questions of what that something is, and how, why and when everything begun - if it ever had a beginning. So of course - it answers nothing.

A friend of mine has a theory that there has always been energy, which to my understanding is the potential to "work", potential for something to occur, this is intriguing, perhaps because I cannot even begin to grasp energy in this context, but perhaps also because I lack most basic knowledge of working physics, if somebody who is more familiar with it could shed some light on this, other than the raw definition, It would be most appreciated!

What I would like to know is whether everything is an infinite multidimensional multiverse, and whether it is possible for other universes to have begun with laws of physics entirely different from those of our own universe, with minimal similarities to how even the most elementary things work, making your wildest fantasies a possibility. :razz:

This answer is one of the few constructive replies on this topic. I agree with you to some extent and I believe that one of the problems of understanding how we came to be and asking the question of how it is possible for "nothing" to come out of "something" is that we even accept the term nothing as a possibility. Look around you, there is no nothing because there is always something. And yet on the other hand, I myself as a human with my logic have accepted nothingness as a possibility and cannot comprehend that our universe simply always was. My logic dictates that for something to be, it must become. It is a high possibility that my logic is flawed.

There is also a possibility of humans discovering and comprehending what nothing is, therefore giving an insight in our own creation. Now that I think about it, I'm not an expert on black holes nor a scientist of any kind, but as far as I know they consist of gravity pull only? What if they consist of nothing? Wouldn't that scientifically prove nothingness and give us a key to unlocking secrets of how we came to be? Anyway, I don't know anything about that stuff, I'm just brainstorming xD

It also amazes me that while my logic dictates that there couldn't have always been something, and that out of nothing something cannot become, here we are - existing. That's awesome :smile:

Edit:

Ye, just remembered that if nothing gets scientifically explained as something that exists, then it wouldn't be nothing - absence of existence, so I don't think it can be proved at all and will probably remain a philosophical term. Which again increases the probability that nothingness is impossible and that there was probably always something and that our logic is simply flawed.
 
Code:
1a. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed.

2a. Matter exists.

3a. <= not necessary.

Code:
1b. Matter can only be created to exist.

2b. Matter exists.

3b. How was matter created? <= Conj. 1b & 2b

Your question (3b) depends on 1b being true. 2b is a given. Why is 1b true? Hence why I'm asking you if you have any experience or anyone you know who has experience of stuff coming about from nothing. Such an experience would at least put 1b into the realm of possibility. So far as I've understood you, you've been saying that matter has to be created because matter has to be created. Employing circular logic there.
 
Swadius 2.0 said:
Code:
1a. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed.

2a. Matter exists.

3a. <= not necessary.

Code:
1b. Matter can only be created to exist.

2b. Matter exists.

3b. How was matter created? <= Conj. 1b & 2b

Your question (3b) depends on 1b being true. 2b is a given. Why is 1b true? Hence why I'm asking you if you have any experience or anyone you know who has experience of stuff coming about from nothing. Such an experience would at least put 1b into the realm of possibility. So far as I've understood you, you've been saying that matter has to be created because matter has to be created. Employing circular logic there.

Ye I don't have any experience, nor it is possible currently to find any evidence of nothing coming from something. On top of that, i don't think it's scientifically possible to prove that nothing is a reality, and will probably remain in philosophy only.  So it's a high possibility that something always existed like you listed in 1a, 2a, but it would still be amazing to know how that's even possible  :smile:

QuintessentialTurk said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Bostrom#Simulation_argument

Interesting read but,

"Any entities with our general set of experiences are almost certainly living in a simulation."

I don't understand why he's claiming that.
 
Anti-matter and matter of equal amounts of resonance* will create an irrelevant amount of nothingness. And perhaps a few electrons if (I think) Lauss is to be believed. A new popular theory states that there should be as much anti-matter as matter in the universe.

So it is entirely possible that there is nothing out here but an equilibrium of forces which, in whole, are equal to zero energy.

All that exist is void and some energy. Everything else is opinions.

*Don't know the english term.
 
Even if it cannot be answered by science you don't need to turn to a theological answer. You can choose to believe a scientist's made up stuff or theologian's made up stuff but it's all bull**** anyway.

Putting the stamp of science on it doesn't make dreamed up bull**** unquestionable, no matter what that Degrasse Tyson nut keeps preaching.

preech it preech it

I'm tried of scientists and pop-science junkies mistaking their philosophising as being science on account of it sounding scientific.
 
momcilo94 said:
Well this has been bothering me for a while,

How is it possible that something was created out of nothing and that from non-existence, existence was created?

Higher power.

But, how have the things that caused it come to be in the first place?

They just were.

I hear some people saying that there was never nothing, that there has always been some form of energy, but I want to know how has that energy come to be?

It just did.

Theistic belief is that God created the universe, but if so, who created God and who created that guy who created God?

I believe that the Bible claims God made the Earth. It was written by a man, in a time before the concept of 'universe' was widely acknowledged (or known). I don't believe the Bible, or any other book pertaining to monotheism, states that God specifically made all of the entire universe.

I could be wrong on that.


They usually say that God is alpha and omega,

I find it prudent to remain in a skeptical frame of mind as far as "they" are concerned.

the beginning and the end and that there is an endless cycle of life and death so there was never nothingness, but how did that cycle come to existence?

I created it.

Are we even capable of comprehending that level of thought, or is the solution hidden somewhere?


What are your opinions on this?

Yes, it was me. I did it all. I did it, and I regret nothing. Well, except that whole dinosaur extinction thing. Those guys really knew how to throw a party.
 
Pharaoh Llandy said:
momcilo94 said:
Well this has been bothering me for a while,

How is it possible that something was created out of nothing and that from non-existence, existence was created?

Higher power.

But, how have the things that caused it come to be in the first place?

They just were.

I hear some people saying that there was never nothing, that there has always been some form of energy, but I want to know how has that energy come to be?

It just did.

Theistic belief is that God created the universe, but if so, who created God and who created that guy who created God?

I believe that the Bible claims God made the Earth. It was written by a man, in a time before the concept of 'universe' was widely acknowledged (or known). I don't believe the Bible, or any other book pertaining to monotheism, states that God specifically made all of the entire universe.

I could be wrong on that.


They usually say that God is alpha and omega,

I find it prudent to remain in a skeptical frame of mind as far as "they" are concerned.

the beginning and the end and that there is an endless cycle of life and death so there was never nothingness, but how did that cycle come to existence?

I created it.

Are we even capable of comprehending that level of thought, or is the solution hidden somewhere?


What are your opinions on this?

Yes, it was me. I did it all. I did it, and I regret nothing. Well, except that whole dinosaur extinction thing. Those guys really knew how to throw a party.

dafuq-did-i-just-read-meme.jpg
 
momcilo94 said:
Pharaoh Llandy said:
momcilo94 said:
Well this has been bothering me for a while,

How is it possible that something was created out of nothing and that from non-existence, existence was created?

Higher power.

But, how have the things that caused it come to be in the first place?

They just were.

I hear some people saying that there was never nothing, that there has always been some form of energy, but I want to know how has that energy come to be?

It just did.

Theistic belief is that God created the universe, but if so, who created God and who created that guy who created God?

I believe that the Bible claims God made the Earth. It was written by a man, in a time before the concept of 'universe' was widely acknowledged (or known). I don't believe the Bible, or any other book pertaining to monotheism, states that God specifically made all of the entire universe.

I could be wrong on that.


They usually say that God is alpha and omega,

I find it prudent to remain in a skeptical frame of mind as far as "they" are concerned.

the beginning and the end and that there is an endless cycle of life and death so there was never nothingness, but how did that cycle come to existence?

I created it.

Are we even capable of comprehending that level of thought, or is the solution hidden somewhere?


What are your opinions on this?

Yes, it was me. I did it all. I did it, and I regret nothing. Well, except that whole dinosaur extinction thing. Those guys really knew how to throw a party.

dafuq-did-i-just-read-meme.jpg

Please find some other forum in which to perpetuate your puerile image-spam.

 
Oh damn son, she just called you puerile. You gonna take that? Them's fightin' words.
 
I believe that the Bible claims God made the Earth. It was written by a man, in a time before the concept of 'universe' was widely acknowledged (or known). I don't believe the Bible, or any other book pertaining to monotheism, states that God specifically made all of the entire universe.

I could be wrong on that.
The conclusion would, as always, depend on your interpretation. The Bible does claim God created the sky along with light and all that. One would assume it means that God at least created the sun, too. Or rather, created the substances each planet consists of.
 
Back
Top Bottom