Pikes / Spears

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el_miguel42

Recruit
Old Guard
Hi guys

just started a new playthrough and was trying to think ahead to a new CKO.  I thought that instead of just building a steam rolling noldor bow weilding force I might try something completely different.  Is a spear and shield CKO viable, and do you think it could be remotely effective?  The reason I ask is because the AI seems hopeless at using spears or pikes, also because its such a huge investment, if anyone has any experience of it, it would be nice to know in advance.

Cheers
 
Spear and shield will never be viable because you're forced to poke, which is a slow attack AND it is useless in close combat.  However it could have limited uses on horseback, but will not be as effective as sword plus shield, or even lance plus shield.  Now a 2-H swinging polearm would be viable and very devastating though defense would suffer. 

I've never used my CKO as an archer force.  Since the game restricts cavalry for the player, I use my CKO as elite heavy cavalry/heavy infantry who are sworn never to kill.  They only use blunt weapons. 
 
azxcvbnm321 said:
Spear and shield will never be viable because you're forced to poke, which is a slow attack AND it is useless in close combat.  However it could have limited uses on horseback, but will not be as effective as sword plus shield, or even lance plus shield.  Now a 2-H swinging polearm would be viable and very devastating though defense would suffer. 

I've never used my CKO as an archer force.  Since the game restricts cavalry for the player, I use my CKO as elite heavy cavalry/heavy infantry who are sworn never to kill.  They only use blunt weapons.
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Depending on how you want to use your CKO, spear + shield is still viable. It's definitely not good to rely on them entirely in a siege.

Any short spear (Warspear) is a good weapon, but you'll need your CKO infantry to be numerous. Poking may be easy to block, but due to their reach, you'll have much more "pokers" in an attack line, making it actually impossible to parry.

Anyone who has observed Dread Infantry from the Snake Cult Dread Legion, will know that Spear + Shield can be effective, although a little weak vs direct sword/axe + shield infantry.

I would not ever recommend pikes though....halberds are ok, but you'll really suffer without shields.
 
I prefer:

Halberd/Glaive + Bow + 2 quivers

to:

OneHander + Shield + Bow + Quiver

You cannot use shields while wielding bows anyways, and your CKO will be the best ranged troops in the game. The issue should not be your CKO charging into the enemy, but the enemy trying to survive your CKO's ranged barrage.  :twisted: The biggest threat will be charging Calvary,  Halberds/Glaives are extremely competent at killing mounted troops efficiently. They are also cheap and quick building.

Spear+Shield is far worse than it should be thanks to a combination of Warband's mechanics and the AI's incompetence. Spears are much better on mounted AI troops though.

For ranged + shield, I believe Javelins are better. You can use Javelins while keeping your shield equipped.

Addendum: I remember reading that some players have had issues with CKO not spawning with two quivers. I haven't noticed any major issues though.. Haven't counted arrows fired however.
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Yeah I renamed them for these screenies.
 
thanks guys some interesting responses, pretty much what I thought.

While dread legion is effective I think that's more to do with the insane amount of hitpoints they have.

Just want to add, im not going for pure power with the CKO.  I found on previous playthroughs that once I got a CKO up and running I got bored.  Put my horse archers on a hill and wipe out all enemies and then rinse and repeat.  I figured this time I would try doing something a little unconventional so I was trying to think of historical tactics which i could try and re-enact.  The shield wall tactic works pretty well, and then you can use cavalry for flanking, I wanted to try and recreate something like a phalanx, the tactic would be to just advance the troops onto the enemy I think.

I think ill give it a try and then report back.  Im hoping that if I have a large board shield and a warspear it won't be too bad.
 
I would recommend you go for the shorter spears, as the long ones aren't good in close combat. Well at least I don't think they are, could be im wrong, and they might be good when not in close combat, I have never tried it so idk.
 
el_miguel42 said:
...I figured this time I would try doing something a little unconventional so I was trying to think of historical tactics which i could try and re-enact.  The shield wall tactic works pretty well, and then you can use cavalry for flanking, I wanted to try and recreate something like a phalanx, the tactic would be to just advance the troops onto the enemy I think.
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All the more reason you may want to consider Javelins.

I'm guessing something like: Spear + Shield + Javelin + Javelin

Power Throw 10 + 500 Throwing should be pretty sexy.

krisvk said:
I would recommend you go for the shorter spears, as the long ones aren't good in close combat. Well at least I don't think they are, could be im wrong, and they might be good when not in close combat, I have never tried it so idk.
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Mass troops with +200 reach weapons can be surprising, especially with the UP swing. However I'm not too certain about thrusting only.
 
IlluminaZer0 said:
Mass troops with +200 reach weapons can be surprising, especially with the UP swing. However I'm not too certain about thrusting only.
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Halberds and Glaives can be pretty powerful with a blob of troops....don't coun't on the pikes.
Keeping your formation for the entire battle is impossible, due to the chaos of charging cavalry and infantry closing in, and once formation breaks, pikes really suck.

Also, while the AI may sometimes seem very good at stopping horses with a thrust, don't expect your troupe of pikemen to do the same vs charging cavalry.

Remaining problem is, that pikes are really really bad vs infantry, and even cavalry if you don't kill them with 1 thrust, because the warband mechanics' collision is messed up.

I myself prefer to use 2h + bow on my CKO, since 2h wpns see a little more universal use (siege assaults).
.................
The dread infantry is not really good because of HP, else they'd still be fodder like Eyegrim foot soldiers, but because they're quite good with the short spears and deal surprising dmg.

 
zykox said:
Halberds and Glaives can be pretty powerful with a blob of troops....don't coun't on the pikes.
Keeping your formation for the entire battle is impossible, due to the chaos of charging cavalry and infantry closing in, and once formation breaks, pikes really suck...

..I myself prefer to use 2h + bow on my CKO, since 2h wpns see a little more universal use (siege assaults).
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I can maintain my formation pretty consistently. If the AI is charging Calvary it sometimes makes it easier as you can often wipe out the Calvary b4 the Infantry/Archers arrive. Depends on map of course, as well as how competent your troops are at efficiently killing the enemies... Or how efficient YOU are at killing them . :cool:

I generally avoid Pike troops, but it's likely that they may be able to slow/stall Calvary charges with less troop numbers (for infantry). A polearm thrust does stop Calvary movement after all. They may be a good compliment to whatever ranged troop you have.

If I am facing a force with ridiculously high numbers of Calvary (like the Jatu) I will sometimes just field mass infantry. The only thing this formation needs to accomplish is a high density of troops to bog down the Calvary and slaughter them.  :twisted:  However, part of the reason this works so well is how incompetent AI Calvary is with thrusting weapons like Lances...

Halberds/Glaives are good in sieges as well. Neither 2H or Polearms are going to be able to fight enemies that are in their face with horrific crowds, but +200 reach polearms allows troops to hit from the rear with UP strikes. A nice complement to whatever 1Hander+Shield troop is (hopefully) in the front. Ideally the 1Hander has a low reach weapon too.
 
Pikes and Halberds are awesome in smaller numbers to complement your infantry ranks.
The Empire Armoured Pikeman is pretty powerful and not to be sneezed at, be it open field battle against cavalry, siege offense or defense.
Sure, they´re really vulnerable to archery but nothing beats their range.

They do wonders in balanced (1/3 cav, archers, infantry) armies - though still depending on the enemy. I´m currently destroying Fierdswain, for example, using a unhealthy mix of mainly infantry (Pendor Men at Arms), Archers (Empire Crossbows and Pendor Armoured Bowmen), Sarleon Men at Arms, some Halberdiers and whatever Empire Armoured Pikers still alive.

The Pendorian Men at Arms switch regulary to their polehammers if cavalry approaches and their huge great big weaposn taught many an Adventurer or Sword Maiden or Valkyrie a hard lesson.

All you need is a strong defensive position, even the smallest of hills with a tree or two will service. And with cheap Pendorian Troopers, losses matter little.

So pikes/spears may work better than you´d imagine. A huge shield like the heavy board shield, togehter with a short spear or warspear into the first two slots, a pike/halberd/polehammer and freaking awesomely overpowered D´Shar Throwing Darts into the final slot.

Probably not the best or most powerful combination, but definetly working, if you care to micromanage your fights.
 
noosers said:
Pikes and Halberds are awesome in smaller numbers to complement your infantry ranks.
The Empire Armoured Pikeman is pretty powerful and not to be sneezed at, be it open field battle against cavalry, siege offense or defense.
Sure, they´re really vulnerable to archery but nothing beats their range.

They do wonders in balanced (1/3 cav, archers, infantry) armies - though still depending on the enemy. I´m currently destroying Fierdswain, for example, using a unhealthy mix of mainly infantry (Pendor Men at Arms), Archers (Empire Crossbows and Pendor Armoured Bowmen), Sarleon Men at Arms, some Halberdiers and whatever Empire Armoured Pikers still alive.

The Pendorian Men at Arms switch regulary to their polehammers if cavalry approaches and their huge great big weaposn taught many an Adventurer or Sword Maiden or Valkyrie a hard lesson.

All you need is a strong defensive position, even the smallest of hills with a tree or two will service. And with cheap Pendorian Troopers, losses matter little.

So pikes/spears may work better than you´d imagine. A huge shield like the heavy board shield, togehter with a short spear or warspear into the first two slots, a pike/halberd/polehammer and freaking awesomely overpowered D´Shar Throwing Darts into the final slot.

Probably not the best or most powerful combination, but definetly working, if you care to micromanage your fights.
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War spears with 10 ps will surely hurt wouldn't it?
 
Of all the ideas, I really like the  Javelin idea, but a build with only Javelin, Shield, Javelin, Javelin.  I believe your troops can hold on to the last one and use that as a spear.  Anyone who's ever fought Empire troops before know how devastating a Javelin to the face can be. 
 
azxcvbnm321 said:
Of all the ideas, I really like the  Javelin idea, but a build with only Javelin, Shield, Javelin, Javelin.  I believe your troops can hold on to the last one and use that as a spear.  Anyone who's ever fought Empire troops before know how devastating a Javelin to the face can be.
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They can hold on but the question is: "will they?"
 
I've seen them (I think) use the secondary stabbity mode of javelins in the arena before. No idea if they held on to the last one or just decided melee'ing was better with them.
 
Unless there has been an AI update I don't know, they WON'T hold on to the last one. One of my tactics from my amateurish days, was running in circles in the arena until the opponent would run out of javelins to throw (what else could I do vs Hero Adventurer with bow'n arrow?) ...I expected him to hold on to the last one and start a melee, but alas, he thought he could beat me with fists. So no...
 
In Brytenwalda, I remember someone making spear + shield combo useful by creating a "short spear" (something like 100-110 length I think), with good speed and damage that made using the combo useful.
 
That would be nice, spears need a small buff. Too bad the warband engine is just terrible with polearms. Maybe in Bannerlord they will fix it :smile:

Speaking of, I really hope there is PoP for bannerlord eventually.
 
wookdaddy said:
That would be nice, spears need a small buff. Too bad the warband engine is just terrible with polearms. Maybe in Bannerlord they will fix it :smile:

Speaking of, I really hope there is PoP for bannerlord eventually.
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Polearms are fine. it's just pure thrusting weapons which are... Flawed. Especially in the AI's hands.
 
I think it's less a problem of the AI, but the collision and mechanics in Warband. Thrusting wpns, especially long ones like spears are usually fatal in one successful hit, and at least have an effect of pushing back a surviving enemy. However, this is not the case in Warband, so the enemy easily closes in and then long polearms are useless.

Also, the occasional horse-warping and collapsing/dying troops' body warping just emphasizes close combat. Needless to say, any cavalry that isn't knocked out right away, just forms a big blob around pikemen, meaning the pikemen become useless because there's no place to swing or thrust.

So I do believe in order to make this issue more realistic, much more work is needed than just an improved AI. That said, I don't think this will be fixed to a satisfactory level in MB II.
 
Warband exaggerates the disadvantage of using a long weapon in close combat and makes optimal usage excessively difficult for thrusting. A spear user could just adapt their grip or thrust from a different angle (upwards for example) to accommodate close combat thrusting.

quL01hI.jpg

Had to resize image. Original way too large...

Polearm CQC is generally underrated, especially for grappling and knocking down opponents. Warband lacks this type of combat completely though, so...
 
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