Best Place to set up your kingdom and a few other questions
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Zenoxious
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IlluminaZer0 said:
I'm sorry, but what you’re saying just doesn't track with reality. In order to get Strike/Draw to 10, you would need 30STR, if you're building a character up from nothing and just purely making them a warrior only this would equate to something like a minimum of level 30. In reality most characters come with stats wanted or not, so you would be looking at closer to 40-45 and for other more progressed characters you would be looking 55+, but with most companions this would never be obtainable especially if you’re investing in skills like trainer so heavily. Just to put this into perspective at level 41 this equates to 350,000XP or somewhere in the order of 700-1200+ kills depending on unit type, with that in mind CKO or even Hero Adventurers are far easier to obtain, train and will arguably be better.
IlluminaZer0 said:
I use Sigi, Diev and Kaverra myself, but these type of companions are not the problem per se. They all level up ok to about level 25 then you start to hit a wall in XP, at this point your character levels 10-20 times faster than you companions. So how about you share exactly how much trainer you have in each character and how much XP that is equating to at the end of each day. I think you should also tell us just how many days/hours you’re into your current play through because something doesn’t smell right here.
IlluminaZer0 said:
You’ve completely missed the point and yet somehow arrived at the same assessment as I stated in the above post. I have some level 40 heroes for example who have great bow skills, who I want to equip bows to, but no way of equipping them because most bows require power draw 3. This means I need to level them up 2 levels as a minimum and dump points into INT. If I wanted to go for your panacea of power draw 8-10, I would have to level them up 4-5 levels dumping yet more XP into INT. This would be the quickest way to do it, but hold on minute you need 30STR to get 10 power draw and be able to equip Noldor armour so this requires maybe another 2-3 levels. So for me to change my companions in this very small way I’m looking at millions upon millions of XP, which is just impossible to get without a game lasting me say an entire year. That is not good design, it’s not fun and it’s not challenging, it’s just a grind whatever way you look at it.
The concept is pretty simple really, a companion is there to add extra RPG elements. The minute you start limiting that facet of the game by making the task so laborious it becomes not worth the effort you may as well just remove it from the game because then it adds nothing. I don’t think asking to be able to customize my troops how I want them and not have to cheat to do it is something anyone should be arguing against. If your happy to have your companions running around with crossbows all game and wearing whatever bits of armour fit then that’s fine, but I want to be able to have my guys using bows and using matching Noldor armour, otherwise what the hell is it there for?
IlluminaZer0
Sergeant
This is false. Minimum of 30 is nay, and Level 40-45 is idiotically high. None of my companions aside from Leth are at level 40 or higher.Zenoxious said:
Sigismund starts at level 20 with 28 STR. To get 30 STR is level 22, to get 10 Strike/Draw is level 28. Nope.
Ediz starts at level 12 with 14 STR. He will hit 30 STR at level 28. As he starts with strike 4 draw 5, he only needs 11 points. Level 28 once again.
Kaverra starts at level 12 with 16 STR. She will hit 30 STR at level 24. She can attain 10/10 Strike/Draw at level 25.
Players with CKO at 10/10 Power Strike/Draw is pretty common. To attain that requires companions with equal skill levels. There is nothing exceptional about achieving 10/10 Strike/Draw at all.
Seriously?Zenoxious said:
This means that you can have effective companions without 30 STR and maxed skills. If you need 30 STR and max skills to see value in a companion, that is your failing not theirs.IlluminaZer0 said:
Zenoxious said:
You have a bunch of level 40+ warrior companions that are incapable of meeting the STR requirements for Noldor items and it's the game's fault somehow?Zenoxious said:
Addendum: If you are referring to Knights like Roland that start at level 40... Well they are Knights. That you are complaining that Roland's skillset resembles a Knight's is pretty absurd when you later assert that companions are there for RPG elements.
Companions are good for the reasons I stated.Zenoxious said:
You're just whining that the game doesn't let you have instant supermen, that the game allows you to make stupid decisions in companion builds, and/or that companions dare lack 100% customization. None of these are game flaws.
Uuuh companions...touchy subject.
Well, for starters companions that are not suited for "noldor archery" are:
I kinda agree with the above "knights get knight stats"-statement...customization is nice, but if some chars are pretty set, they're set. IMO it's rather slow with Diev, and sad with Leth though...I have yet to have a game where Leth reached lvl 47, and giving him PD 10 leaves PS 8, so it's still not as good as the others. He has really nice wpn prof...so I don't see the logic.
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RPG aspect...if there's anything that's bothering me, it's the companion relations/choice of companions, and that they are unable to evolve/change their attitude.
But I guess the limitations of the Warband code just make even little changes really a lot of work, so I understand.
Well any more discussion on companions and we need a different thread, yes?
Well, for starters companions that are not suited for "noldor archery" are:
THE KNIGHTS FOR PD 10
Sir Alistair lvl 38 Str 28 lvl 45 (str +2, int +5)
Sir Roland lvl 38 Str 28 lvl 45 (str +2, int +5)
Sir Jocelyn lvl 40 Str 28 lvl 47 (str +2, int +5)
OTHERS
Boadice lvl 30 Str 18 lvl 42
PD 7, BUT RATHER SLOW
Diev lvl 25 Str 21 lvl 34 (str +9)
Lethaldiran lvl 45 Str 30 lvl 47 (int +1, 1 free)
Sir Alistair lvl 38 Str 28 lvl 45 (str +2, int +5)
Sir Roland lvl 38 Str 28 lvl 45 (str +2, int +5)
Sir Jocelyn lvl 40 Str 28 lvl 47 (str +2, int +5)
OTHERS
Boadice lvl 30 Str 18 lvl 42
PD 7, BUT RATHER SLOW
Diev lvl 25 Str 21 lvl 34 (str +9)
Lethaldiran lvl 45 Str 30 lvl 47 (int +1, 1 free)
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RPG aspect...if there's anything that's bothering me, it's the companion relations/choice of companions, and that they are unable to evolve/change their attitude.
But I guess the limitations of the Warband code just make even little changes really a lot of work, so I understand.
Well any more discussion on companions and we need a different thread, yes?
IlluminaZer0
Sergeant
It's a bit odd, but you can change companion relations once they are no longer companions. Roland, Alistair, and Boadice make very good Lords without any need for training, and was one of the first things I did upon becoming an independent faction. After resolving Roland and Alistair's dispute they are now bros.
With my play-style I consider high leveled companions a pre-requisite to starting a kingdom. High Engineering, Surgery, Path-finder, Tactics, and so forth is very important. Being able to train an army quickly with multiple trainers is very good as well.
On "Noldor Archery:" I actually think that Leth/Diev reinforce my point a bit more. Despite lacking 10/10 Strike/Draw, Leth is an extremely good archer thanks to his proficiency and respectable draw. It's not as though Diev is useless without 10 draw as well. Besides, 10 draw isn't really "Noldor Archery" at that point. It's "better than Noldor archery."
With my play-style I consider high leveled companions a pre-requisite to starting a kingdom. High Engineering, Surgery, Path-finder, Tactics, and so forth is very important. Being able to train an army quickly with multiple trainers is very good as well.
On "Noldor Archery:" I actually think that Leth/Diev reinforce my point a bit more. Despite lacking 10/10 Strike/Draw, Leth is an extremely good archer thanks to his proficiency and respectable draw. It's not as though Diev is useless without 10 draw as well. Besides, 10 draw isn't really "Noldor Archery" at that point. It's "better than Noldor archery."
Zenoxious
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IlluminaZer0 said:
I rarely ever use Ediz because he conflicts with other companions that I use and as I've said before I'm not talking so much about Sigi, Kaverra or Diev, because at least with them I have a chance to obtain what I'm after. However, there is no way if you're creating a straight up warrior that you're going to invest that much INT into the character or leave them with 15 AGI, so those numbers are pretty stacked to say the least. Additionally you’re the one who made the statement that companions were better than CKO/Hero Adventurers etc, which is clearly just not true from a fighting perspective.
IlluminaZer0 said:
Yes seriously, put up or shut up. You made the comment about trainer stacking, how much are you generating per day and on what stat investment because I don’t think it’s nearly as much as you’re playing it up to be? I actually don’t think this is an unreasonable request considering you completely ignored just how much XP is required per level later on.
IlluminaZer0 said:
Most people wouldn't play Ansen in a main combat roll, unless the game had been going on for ages and they had accumulated a lot of levels on him he's far more valuable as a stats mule especially if he gets knocked out in a large fight because you would in effect be gimping yourself, so I call bull**** on that one. If you take away group stats from your companions all you’re really left with is a fairly under leveled knight, which is beaten by any number of high tier troops. That is not to say they’re not useful still, but they’re certainly less relevant as straight up fighters as the game goes on. Ultimately I want to customize my characters to my design, just because my design doesn’t fit with your perspective doesn’t make it any less valid or worthwhile.
IlluminaZer0 said:
I don’t think you’ve grasped this concept have you? Yes it is the games fault, because I had no say in how those stats/characters were constructed and I’m stuck with it, this is an issue in vanilla as well, but to a lesser extent because of the mob and armour levels, you don’t have hordes of level 60 knights roaming around in M&B. Jocelyn/Roland are classic examples of this, even if I accept this narrow stereotype of what a knight is (which is bollocks by the way), what’s the point of having 360 archery and no power draw? Instead why not give us more characters like Sigi, Kaverra and Diev, i.e. something we can work with? Because without additional levelling he’s not even as good as the rest of the standard fluff knights running around the battlefield, which you can pick up cheaper and easier than levelling him. I don’t see why you’re so dead set against some form of betterment in this area, especially when it’s 300,000+ XP per level, I’m mean for god sake we might as well call them Barbie Knights because all you can really do is dress them up and give him accessories.
IlluminaZer0 said:
Absolute bull****, you're making false sweeping assumptions about both my game and me, it should be quite obvious just how much time I've already put into the game from the very first post. The fact you’re going for the player and not the ball says to me that you’ve lost the argument already.
In fact I think it is quite realistic that there are some people out there in Pendor, that have already chosen their path before joining the player and his quest for unification. These men have already lived half the life of a knight, are probably near their late thirties and quite simply not in a disposition to learn much more or even fully change the way they fight - that is what is reflected in their high levels, which basically fix their skills and predetermine a certain weapon loadout.
Zenoxious
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This isn't role playing and if we bring the real life argument into it, then where are the expert knights with bows? Knights in reality didn't all run around jousting each other all day long, they diligently trained for war almost right up to the very ends of their lives, which were pretty short anyway.
To distil the point down further, they essentially become largely redundant as a fighting force the longer the game goes on and especially in POP compared to M&B. I don't think it's unreasonable to either give us the tools to level them up further or let us make them to our design.
To distil the point down further, they essentially become largely redundant as a fighting force the longer the game goes on and especially in POP compared to M&B. I don't think it's unreasonable to either give us the tools to level them up further or let us make them to our design.
Given the bow was regarded a peasants weapon, you wouldn´t see many knights or men at arms using it at all.
So what is your main point of argument?
That some companions are better than others for your min/max attitude? Well, they are. Is it important? Not really, because people will pick them for the flavour they bring in.
Companions become utterly useless as a fighting force the longer the game goes on? Not really. They´re immortal and contribute greatly to your parties benefit with their set of skills. As such, they´re pretty priceless. Especially if you rely on the trainer skill to train massive armies quickly.
Just don´t suppose them to become F1F3 fire and forget troops till they hit level 25+ and 150+ weapon proficiencies.
What you´re not grasping is that not every NPC/PC is supposed to use every ingame items. Some can´t, due to their already high level.
Why?
Well, unless you´re the younger brother of Usain Bolt I doubt you´ll be able to run a new 100m world record, and those compansies are just the same - their high level mirrors the experience of their lifetime, they´re set in their ways and skills and harder to move or train, by default and on purpose.
In order to compensate this and satisfy the people longing for maximum effect you´ve got a decent load of medium-low tiered NPCs to chose from. If you dislike it it´s pretty easy to edit the NPCs so they´re all lvl 1 chaps with 30/30/30/30 stats using an editing tool.
As for your question about weapon proficiency:
It´s the way the random function works. Within the troops.py variables and functions are declared within the heading section of the code to ease the readability of the whole stuff follwing up plus automating things, and as such the nice routine wp(350) within a troops description will yield values for all 6 proficiencies varying around 350, despite the possibility the according damage modifier at zero.
So what is your main point of argument?
That some companions are better than others for your min/max attitude? Well, they are. Is it important? Not really, because people will pick them for the flavour they bring in.
Companions become utterly useless as a fighting force the longer the game goes on? Not really. They´re immortal and contribute greatly to your parties benefit with their set of skills. As such, they´re pretty priceless. Especially if you rely on the trainer skill to train massive armies quickly.
Just don´t suppose them to become F1F3 fire and forget troops till they hit level 25+ and 150+ weapon proficiencies.
What you´re not grasping is that not every NPC/PC is supposed to use every ingame items. Some can´t, due to their already high level.
Why?
Well, unless you´re the younger brother of Usain Bolt I doubt you´ll be able to run a new 100m world record, and those compansies are just the same - their high level mirrors the experience of their lifetime, they´re set in their ways and skills and harder to move or train, by default and on purpose.
In order to compensate this and satisfy the people longing for maximum effect you´ve got a decent load of medium-low tiered NPCs to chose from. If you dislike it it´s pretty easy to edit the NPCs so they´re all lvl 1 chaps with 30/30/30/30 stats using an editing tool.
As for your question about weapon proficiency:
It´s the way the random function works. Within the troops.py variables and functions are declared within the heading section of the code to ease the readability of the whole stuff follwing up plus automating things, and as such the nice routine wp(350) within a troops description will yield values for all 6 proficiencies varying around 350, despite the possibility the according damage modifier at zero.
Zenoxious
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noosers said:
That depended largely on the culture you came from, British longbow-men were considered to be incredibly valuable in their day right up to and into the Tudor times. You also had mounted knight archers for example, the Jaudrell family whose linage goes back to Edward the 3rd, his entire family were mounted knight archers, you can go and see their crypt buried in a church in Raleigh in the Peak District, UK. In the middle ages tournaments were comprised of the joust, the melee and archery, in order to enter such tournaments you had to be a knight. The point of which was to prepare the knight classes for their day job, i.e. warfare.
As for the companions, I'm talking purely from a combat perspective, obviously they contribute to party stats, but as I said previously, what's the point of having them at all, I might as well stick them at the bottom of my deck late game if my primary use for them is going to be as stats mules. In a like for like combat scenario even your highest level companions will not be able to compete with high tier troops.
noosers said:
That's half the problem a lot of the medium tiered companions don't like each other so you're limited on that front by the companion bubble. I'm actually using low level companions such as Leslie, Sara and Julia and have done so from the start of the game, but the drudgery of levelling them up from nothing is a little trying to say the least. The problem is everything is so high level they die very quickly and thus they don't get the kills and therefore they don't level all that easily. That said I suppose a couple of siege defences wouldn't hurt for this, although I wish I didn't have to rely so utterly on a retarded AI to kill something in order to gain a level. As for editing the files, save scumming is about as far as I go, I've been tempted once or twice to mess around with it, but then it takes the challenge/accomplishment out of the game.
I suppose the bottom line that anyone replying to me needs to be asking themselves is: In M&B/POP is the companion system/companion levelling the best way of doing things, is it without its flaws? If you legitimately answer yes to that then there is no point you really replying because it means you're already too invested in the game to consider any other perspective.
IlluminaZer0
Sergeant
You did absolutely nothing to assert how my assumptions are false. All your posts have done is reinforce it.Zenoxious said:
You keep mentioning my play time as though that is a negative thing, but you have not actually asserted how that is even relevant to whatever point you are trying to make. Clearly experience playing the game is a negative thing, and this is consistent as well:
Disagreeing with you means that the companion system is flawless right? Aside from being a blatant strawman, it's basically structured as: "If you disagree with me your opinion is invalid."Zenoxious said:
I wrote "seriously" and quoted myself again to spell out that you missed the point completely.Zenoxious said:
Even if we assume that my party's trainer skill was relevant (it is not), your demand doesn't even make any sense as the party's trainer skill has not been static through the duration of the game. Furthermore total trainer exp != Individual Companion gains from it, especially as Warriors tend to be the highest leveled companions. It's irrelevant data for an already irrelevant point.
I never wrote that. I didn't even write Hero Adventurers until now. Earlier I stopped reading that paragraph before you mentioned it due to how incredibly false "closer to 40-45" was. On glancing at it again, I was pretty shocked when I realized that you wrote "Looking at 55+".Zenoxious said:
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if companions at Lv 55 is what you mean by making them competitive.Zenoxious said:
If you find warrior companions useless don't use them. Good luck creating a Hero Adventurer army without the trainer skill. Good luck making competent CKO without warrior companions as well.
There is value in consistency, customization, and the ability to max out skills... Especially when compared to Hero Adventurer's and their extremely wide equipment pool.
I do this all the time. Warriors make the best trainers due to their faster leveling and INT is the fastest way to quickly max out skills. And yes, this is obtainable and does not necessitate being level 55 as you previously claimed.Zenoxious said:
Zenoxious said:
Haha well, that makes Frederick an exception yes? The old geezer is in my book on the same superuseful rank 1 with Sigi. Lvl 30, and he can still change from Mettenheim Hauptmann to PD 10 Archer. In fact, he can "outknight" the NPC knights pretty nicely.iskar said:
I have to agree with Zenoxius on 2 pts though:
-Typical image of a "knight" with knight stats...
PoP is already proving his point yes? D_Windriders...Clarion Call Knights...Rogue Knights, so we already have a bunch of non-melee knights.
-Barbie-knights
Well, it certainly would be nice to have the knights (and pls Leth..lvl 45 is just too cruel) reduced to lvl around 30, like Fred or Boadice, so we can at least do a LITTLE.
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companion relations + attitude:
RP-wise, it's really REALLY hard to use misogynic guys like Kassim, or just plain scumbags like Sir Alistair.
I believe that at one time, PoP was intended to allow freedom of alignment, hence the ability to capture Noldor lords, and the design of a KoEventide companion etc...
But since it's all changed to becoming the honorable HERO if Pendor, it should be possible to change the basic attitude of the companions, depending on how you play:
-So, for example if you befriend/become the scourge of Mystmountain Raiders, that should net some change with Adonja.
If you play honorable, and don't raid, there should be a way to change Adonja's attitude about pillaging and raiding.
And if you're female warrior king, shouldn't that net some influence in Kassim's attitude?
A powerful male king with Boadice? And so on...etc
The Warband companion bubble just makes some combo's unplayable RP-wise, since you'll always want to skip out the 2-3 guys you really don't like. This is quite a pity and a waste of all the history and ideas that went into each companion in the 1st place.
Of course "lording" companions should have some impact as well, but in any case, making companions lords and having some control over their relations is not the solution I'm looking for.
IlluminaZer0
Sergeant
There is nothing contrary about a character having attributes that reflect their background. All of the high leveled Companion Knights of PoP are of knighthood orders that do not utilize bows, there is no error there.
Fully customizable player created companions would be cool; and is something I am debating doing on my next MB game, but the companions of PoP are not that. A character with illogical attributes for their background is actually contrary to an RPG. Stats in an RPG are not just for min-max powergaming. That characters may demand differing considerations is good for variety.
If you dislike the companion complaints it is extremely easy to mod, especially with something like MBTweak. Having characters that may elicit negative reactions is also a good RPing opportunity, as well as a basic counterbalance to how awesome companions are.
Fully customizable player created companions would be cool; and is something I am debating doing on my next MB game, but the companions of PoP are not that. A character with illogical attributes for their background is actually contrary to an RPG. Stats in an RPG are not just for min-max powergaming. That characters may demand differing considerations is good for variety.
If you dislike the companion complaints it is extremely easy to mod, especially with something like MBTweak. Having characters that may elicit negative reactions is also a good RPing opportunity, as well as a basic counterbalance to how awesome companions are.
[quote author=Zenoxious]
[/quote]
It isn´t. There are 20 companions within the game. 14 old ones (pre PoP 3.x) and 6 new ones. Especially the older ones aren´t flawless compared to the new ones and could do with an overhaul. But keep i mind not all NPCs are supposed to be excellent or prime min/maxing material. Just like not everyone is a 100m world champion sprinter.
Whatever, skilling companions takes some time and effort. The early levels are slow and tedious, but if they weren´t they could all start at level 40 altogether. You don´t start killing the Undead Dragon of Doom in any RPG, but stick with lowly creatures like the good old giant rats in some cellar, spiders and goblins.
One of the best ways to powerlevel yourself and your companions is to do extensive minor party hunting where your followers will reap in the weapon proficiencies and kills they need to get sufficient XP to become something useful. Which is usually around level 25 and wp150-250, if you keep raising their strength and agility and combat skills over charisma and intelligence as long as the early levels roll in fast.
I´ve never expected much from low levelled companions and I wasn´t displeased, however, within less than a year gaming time they´re all worthy fellas able to stand their man/woman in battle. Keep in mind I know my ways around the game pretty well and am pretty set in my ways and companions doing the looter guy start and picking 10 or 11 companions each and every playthrough.
And yes, I am no min/maxer. 10 skill in anything is the rare exception and nothing commonplace. I like to fondle my Qualis Gems, not press them for cabbage juice, and I regard raising a stat to 30 pretty pointless for my PC. I can deal more than enough damage with Powerstrike 6 or 7 and my nice Knights War Axe or Pendor Great Sword. I don´t regard 10 in every skill in the book as a musthave or consider NPC´s regardless because they don´t.
[quote author=Zykox]
I believe that at one time, PoP was intended to allow freedom of alignment, hence the ability to capture Noldor lords, and the design of a KoEventide companion etc...
But since it's all changed to becoming the honorable HERO if Pendor, it should be possible to change the basic attitude of the companions, depending on how you play:
[/quote]
Dead wrong, dear Zykox. PoP is and was about beeing the nice guy, the Paladin. You must mistake it for Baldur´s Gate or something. Capturable Noldor Lords where for the victory conditions only - no major armies left on the map. And it was taken out for people who ended in a dead end after raising relations to 100 and not beeing able to attack them or complaining about the relation loss.
You´ve got 6 different major cultures all over Pendor. So you´re supposed to have different types of knights and fighters as well.
As for your Barbie Knights I fear you´ll have to live with them. Noldorians start about level 45 to depict their supremity over mere mortals. Having e.g. Lethaldarian start at anything lower wouldn´t fit his background lore nor his equipment. You´ll have to live with it.
Same goes for the companion bubble. Just because some combinations are not possible - by default! - does not mean the effort put into them is wasted. It means you´ll have to change your view of the world and embrace new compatible companions or stick with the traditionalists. It´s a mere matter or choice and decision. Nothing too demanding.
You also had mounted knight archers for example, the Jaudrell family whose linage goes back to Edward the 3rd, his entire family were mounted knight archers, you can go and see their crypt buried in a church in Raleigh in the Peak District, UK. In the middle ages tournaments were comprised of the joust, the melee and archery, in order to enter such tournaments you had to be a knight. The point of which was to prepare the knight classes for their day job, i.e. warfare.
Probably one of the rarer examples, or probably the lone one for Great Britain, a culture without horse archers.
The Middle Ages covers a very large span of time, and as such chance comes naturally. Even to tournaments, which is quite an interesting development to look upon. What nowadays people regard as the tournament is basically a fair 1vs1 joust, which it wasn´t most of the time and until the Late Medieval Period, when the athletic aspect gained more and more influence.
Basically it´s just a big brawl with various teams and switching allies flaying at each other to capture men, horses and armours. To make money. Massive money. Most notorious examle of this is William Marshal 1st Earl of Pembroke.
If there were such things like archery contests added to tournaments I´d guess it was to entertain and award the peasantry but little knights would participate there.
I´d reckon that both jousting and melee wasn´t restricted to knights either in those earlier periods - given the nature of war - but they´d enter with their entourage. Squires, Men at Arms, Mounted Sergeants.
The Middle Ages covers a very large span of time, and as such chance comes naturally. Even to tournaments, which is quite an interesting development to look upon. What nowadays people regard as the tournament is basically a fair 1vs1 joust, which it wasn´t most of the time and until the Late Medieval Period, when the athletic aspect gained more and more influence.
Basically it´s just a big brawl with various teams and switching allies flaying at each other to capture men, horses and armours. To make money. Massive money. Most notorious examle of this is William Marshal 1st Earl of Pembroke.
If there were such things like archery contests added to tournaments I´d guess it was to entertain and award the peasantry but little knights would participate there.
I´d reckon that both jousting and melee wasn´t restricted to knights either in those earlier periods - given the nature of war - but they´d enter with their entourage. Squires, Men at Arms, Mounted Sergeants.
Again, I disagree. Your companions are immortal. They´ll always survive and progress. Top tiers die. And all of the high end companions are comparable to equally tiered troops by stats and skills. Otherwise, you´re correct. There´s no point in having them at all. From a pure min/max gaming approach, they´re totally useless. Especially with the personal CMKHO around these days.
It isn´t. There are 20 companions within the game. 14 old ones (pre PoP 3.x) and 6 new ones. Especially the older ones aren´t flawless compared to the new ones and could do with an overhaul. But keep i mind not all NPCs are supposed to be excellent or prime min/maxing material. Just like not everyone is a 100m world champion sprinter.
Whatever, skilling companions takes some time and effort. The early levels are slow and tedious, but if they weren´t they could all start at level 40 altogether. You don´t start killing the Undead Dragon of Doom in any RPG, but stick with lowly creatures like the good old giant rats in some cellar, spiders and goblins.
People are so impatient these days. Everyrhing needs to go so fast. If a game hasn´t ended after 8 hours it´s considered a waste. If there isn´t a wiki and guide for everything people tend to be helpless. They´re not trying things out themself or live up to a challenge.
One of the best ways to powerlevel yourself and your companions is to do extensive minor party hunting where your followers will reap in the weapon proficiencies and kills they need to get sufficient XP to become something useful. Which is usually around level 25 and wp150-250, if you keep raising their strength and agility and combat skills over charisma and intelligence as long as the early levels roll in fast.
I´ve never expected much from low levelled companions and I wasn´t displeased, however, within less than a year gaming time they´re all worthy fellas able to stand their man/woman in battle. Keep in mind I know my ways around the game pretty well and am pretty set in my ways and companions doing the looter guy start and picking 10 or 11 companions each and every playthrough.
And yes, I am no min/maxer. 10 skill in anything is the rare exception and nothing commonplace. I like to fondle my Qualis Gems, not press them for cabbage juice, and I regard raising a stat to 30 pretty pointless for my PC. I can deal more than enough damage with Powerstrike 6 or 7 and my nice Knights War Axe or Pendor Great Sword. I don´t regard 10 in every skill in the book as a musthave or consider NPC´s regardless because they don´t.
[quote author=Zykox]
I believe that at one time, PoP was intended to allow freedom of alignment, hence the ability to capture Noldor lords, and the design of a KoEventide companion etc...
But since it's all changed to becoming the honorable HERO if Pendor, it should be possible to change the basic attitude of the companions, depending on how you play:
[/quote]
Dead wrong, dear Zykox. PoP is and was about beeing the nice guy, the Paladin. You must mistake it for Baldur´s Gate or something. Capturable Noldor Lords where for the victory conditions only - no major armies left on the map. And it was taken out for people who ended in a dead end after raising relations to 100 and not beeing able to attack them or complaining about the relation loss.
You´ve got 6 different major cultures all over Pendor. So you´re supposed to have different types of knights and fighters as well.
As for your Barbie Knights I fear you´ll have to live with them. Noldorians start about level 45 to depict their supremity over mere mortals. Having e.g. Lethaldarian start at anything lower wouldn´t fit his background lore nor his equipment. You´ll have to live with it.
Same goes for the companion bubble. Just because some combinations are not possible - by default! - does not mean the effort put into them is wasted. It means you´ll have to change your view of the world and embrace new compatible companions or stick with the traditionalists. It´s a mere matter or choice and decision. Nothing too demanding.
I find the companions extremely balanced and there are a lot of options for the player.
Lets take 2 examples:
Siggie:
That guy is a beast, you can built him / level up anyway you want.
He can hit 30 STR asap and from there make him a mounted Knight, Foot Knight / Crossbowman, Archer anything you want.
He can go toe to toe with the Sirs even if he is many levels behind.
Julia:
She starts with a crossbow but has PD 4, you can easily pump her STR up to 18 and giver her a Noldor bow.
In General:
The High level ones are there due to the Lore, they have backgrounds related to Orders and Leth with the Noldor. Most of them will become Lords and the only one you will keep is Jocelyn who will provide party/CKO training.
In my current game i recruited kassim, Kaverra late game and due to high training and some xp grinding from battles i raised their CHA up to 21. So i made them Lords and with 1k renown / 7 Leadership they will field some nice armies.
I could have kept them in my party and make them 30 STR beasts instead but as you can see the possibilities with companions are endless.
It's up to the player to improvise and use the companions in any way he wants to. But keep in mind that there is no companion that you can hit F1/F3 and will go and kill 20-30 high level enemies on his own.
Lets take 2 examples:
Siggie:
That guy is a beast, you can built him / level up anyway you want.
He can hit 30 STR asap and from there make him a mounted Knight, Foot Knight / Crossbowman, Archer anything you want.
He can go toe to toe with the Sirs even if he is many levels behind.
Julia:
She starts with a crossbow but has PD 4, you can easily pump her STR up to 18 and giver her a Noldor bow.
In General:
The High level ones are there due to the Lore, they have backgrounds related to Orders and Leth with the Noldor. Most of them will become Lords and the only one you will keep is Jocelyn who will provide party/CKO training.
In my current game i recruited kassim, Kaverra late game and due to high training and some xp grinding from battles i raised their CHA up to 21. So i made them Lords and with 1k renown / 7 Leadership they will field some nice armies.
I could have kept them in my party and make them 30 STR beasts instead but as you can see the possibilities with companions are endless.
It's up to the player to improvise and use the companions in any way he wants to. But keep in mind that there is no companion that you can hit F1/F3 and will go and kill 20-30 high level enemies on his own.
Companions are there due to the Lore and it doesn't really matter whether they have higher or less proficiencies/levels from another related troop.
You take them for the party skills they offer, you can't really count on winning battles based on 1 individual unit. Leth can score some long range kills in open field battles but he will eventually run out of arrows and in melee combat he can easily go down. If you want badass highly proficient units you can make your own CKO or get some Noldor Twilight Knights with the gems.
Overall you win battles with a balanced army and good micro-management.
Well, it was part of the victory conditions for all the fun to be had of a major final challenge.
The Orgasm of Grind, so to speak, to finalize the rule of mankind over a unified Pendor.
Your relations with anything starts at decent levels instead of -100 because you´re a little something unknown to Pendor. Some factions dislike you on general pricinciple, others due to your social or cultural background.
It isn´t possible to befriend certain minor factions for a longer period of time as the relations will be reset into the negative every once in a while.
Regarding NPCs: what is your point again?
Do you want to create every NPC a level 55 superhero with insane stats?
If it annoys you that much, draft a comparative excel or openOffice sheet for all 20 NPC´s and how you´d balance them and pm me once you´re finished.
The Orgasm of Grind, so to speak, to finalize the rule of mankind over a unified Pendor.
Your relations with anything starts at decent levels instead of -100 because you´re a little something unknown to Pendor. Some factions dislike you on general pricinciple, others due to your social or cultural background.
It isn´t possible to befriend certain minor factions for a longer period of time as the relations will be reset into the negative every once in a while.
Regarding NPCs: what is your point again?
Do you want to create every NPC a level 55 superhero with insane stats?
If it annoys you that much, draft a comparative excel or openOffice sheet for all 20 NPC´s and how you´d balance them and pm me once you´re finished.
Thanks noosers for the info & reply
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Sigh, ok, I guess I did not properly explain the point of my post above:
Regardless of min-max, I made comparisons of the NPCs to their story-counterparts, to check if their stats and abilities match their background story.
I don't know why I'm suddenly one of the min-maxers now, but I'm not.
Companions don't have to be PS, PT, PD 10, I totally agree. But they should at least be close to "generic troops equivalent", in other words Sir Alistair and Sir Jocelyn as active/former knight of the Eventide, I expect them to have close stats ---> which is true.
Clearing up the conclusion - The exceptions/NPC constructs that don't make sense to me:
-Alyssa's PT is exceptionally high, while her PS is exceptionally low (non-existent)
-Fred's stats, as old geezer and member of the Forlorn Hope, are not matching his equivalents. He should be a high lvl NPC like the knights.
-Leth looks good compared to Noldor Warriors, but he cannot be on par with the average Noldor Ranger BY THE TIME HE REACHES THEIR LEVEL.
-Boadice was a queen, and although her stats are well-balanced, they're not even on par with the average Veccavia Knight, much less Queen's guard.
She should be high lvl NPC like the knights as well...or just young & inexperienced in the story-line.
So, my point is, I don't mind weak companions, I don't mind untalented companions, but if you story-wise say "that guy's a knight of the dawn", and he's obviously weaker then any average enemy knight of the dawn I run unto, then it's strange.
If you say "Alyssa's a serpent priestess", though I don't expect her to be lvl 60, but to be on par with them with PT and 0 PS just doesn't make sense to me.
_____________
Sigh, ok, I guess I did not properly explain the point of my post above:
Regardless of min-max, I made comparisons of the NPCs to their story-counterparts, to check if their stats and abilities match their background story.
I don't know why I'm suddenly one of the min-maxers now, but I'm not.
Companions don't have to be PS, PT, PD 10, I totally agree. But they should at least be close to "generic troops equivalent", in other words Sir Alistair and Sir Jocelyn as active/former knight of the Eventide, I expect them to have close stats ---> which is true.
Clearing up the conclusion - The exceptions/NPC constructs that don't make sense to me:
-Alyssa's PT is exceptionally high, while her PS is exceptionally low (non-existent)
-Fred's stats, as old geezer and member of the Forlorn Hope, are not matching his equivalents. He should be a high lvl NPC like the knights.
-Leth looks good compared to Noldor Warriors, but he cannot be on par with the average Noldor Ranger BY THE TIME HE REACHES THEIR LEVEL.
-Boadice was a queen, and although her stats are well-balanced, they're not even on par with the average Veccavia Knight, much less Queen's guard.
She should be high lvl NPC like the knights as well...or just young & inexperienced in the story-line.
So, my point is, I don't mind weak companions, I don't mind untalented companions, but if you story-wise say "that guy's a knight of the dawn", and he's obviously weaker then any average enemy knight of the dawn I run unto, then it's strange.
If you say "Alyssa's a serpent priestess", though I don't expect her to be lvl 60, but to be on par with them with PT and 0 PS just doesn't make sense to me.
