Troop Formations!

I know i'm probably the 4357345734534th guy to talk about it , but it'd be great to make those stupid peasants or ( better yet) those idiotic caravan guards get in formations...
I'm not asking for anything complex... Just things like squares, circles , triangles and stuff.
I know it's a major pain to make those codings and stuff but many would be glad to see SCs of a HUGE army in formation... damn that would be freaking nice... I just imagine rushing with knights in arrow( triangle) formation breaking enemies lines with lances....
OOOOOOOOOH!
Well, if anyone agrees with that idea just speak up!
PS: Something like Use archery weapons would be nice too( those stupid watchman never remember their CB when i need most )
Cya

You can , well not really , but kinda make square formation by doing follow me. Since they tend to all squish in around you , you can overwhelm calvalry doing that to.

very nice,
i would love to have new formatoins.

You are supposed to use the "scream at stupid suicidal men" button and then start whacking them with the flat side of your sword. Just making yet another bad joke there is nothing like that in the game.

I'm not sure if most moving formations would survive the terrain they'd have to move through. Part of the formation might have a hill to climb, or they might get close to the edge of a cliff. Still, it would be nice.

Personally, I just want to be able to tell my archers to form a line so they're ready when the enemy appears.

It would be cool to make the archers shoot the enemy when in range instead of just charging them in the first sight even if you keep screaming HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLD!
Lol
Just waiting for the troop orders upgrade to see if this kind of event stop happening =D

I would advise putting these basic formations in:

Wedge - Cavalry rushing

Line - Infantry go into a single or double line

Spread - For cavalry or infantry, when charging against missile units, spread formation would be useful so they arent as effective.

These are formations in Rome Total War (they didnt make the formation [der] idea), and would be nice in this game.

I don't think formations would be so good, as it would kill the early medieval feeling.

Formations have been around a looooooong time, matey.

It would be harder to kill off infantry when on horseback, which means I'd support it...it'd force you to sweep around the sides...and cut them down that way!

I think (I may not be right) that polearm equipped cavalry would be more effective in line formation...but only against light infantry (no polearms)

or maybe like the greek phalanx...substancially more mobile...but then you'd probably kill off more of your own men when turning (because of the difficulty in manueovres)

Formations would definitely be a nice touch, but as it stands I don't think the battles are large enough to make them really relevant. In a war, would you ever have seen a wedge formation of 10-12 cavalry? No, you'd be talking hundreds.

Perhaps make the battles a bit larger, and add the ability to control different unit types and give more complex commands. But honestly, this game has to get finished someday....

Yes formations are a MUST

Im sick of having my arhcers in a clump, and the first 7 kills are my own guys........
I would like a line formation, when ive got my Swad Sharpies on a hill, i want to be able to shout "LINE FORMATION"

say when im fighting someone like sea radiers or swad deserters, i would like a command to "spread out" so its harder to hit them with axes/javelins/bolts

i would also like a command to "take cover" in whick they spread out and hide behide trees, hill and rocks, but for this to be cool we would need to be able to crouch

i dont really see a need for columns and whatnot, no need to be RTW.....

oh, and i would like to have a cammond to "GET THE **** OUTTA MY WAY" im sick of trying to get to a hill with my morinic men backin up.....

Ian

Mind you, I say formations have been around for a long time, I get the impression that during the medieval age it WAS just a disorganised rabble - at least among the lower orders.

Bowmen/Archers tended to be from peasant stock and I think the general idea among the gentry was that they (the peasants) didn't have the intelligence or strength of mind to stand in formation...much like General Kitchener of the 'honest Tommy' in the First World War.

Most of my army are not infantry nor ranged units, but horsemen - they seem to last much longer - just wheel in...and cut them to pieces! I think four or so, might be my current record for one straight run! But then it would be <possibly> much harder if they were in formation.

I agree. Early medieval era was characteristic by lack of tactic whatsoever in battles. The troops were disorganized, basically, each knight arrived on the battle with his group of vassals and conscripted infantry (often peasants) as he liked. The knights did not want to recognize a supreme commander, and though individually often very brave, their tactical prowess was negligible. It can be said that the French lost many crucial battles in the One Hundred Years War (Creche, Azincourt), where a group of well organized archers defeated vastly superior number of French knights (though their tactic was based on passive defense of advantageous position).

But first examples of advanced battle tactics started to appear only in the late medieval / early rennaisance era. Czech hussite insurgents used wagons for both defense (vozova hradba) and offense (wagons loaded with stones to break enemy ranks), also introduced first crude firearms and artillery, as well as modified peasant tools (war flail) to conquer their Catholic enemies. The first footmen that were able to offensively fight against cavalry were Swiss pikemen.

Eastern nations, on the other hand, were much more disciplined and often used advanced tactics in battle. Mongol hordes were able to attack in waves, flank, feint retreats and stay incredibly mobile during long campaigns, and that allowed them to conquer more than one half of Europe. Saladin's troops that faced the crusaders also applied similar tactics to stand a chance against their better armored foes.

All in all, I think that detailed formation control would be inappropriate for the game of this era. The commander of this time could at best chose the initial formation of troops (if he had time) and then give the order to charge - and hope for the best.

Probably you two got me wrong...
I was asking for simple formations like lines, rectangles, circles and triangles... Those simple formations were always used from Greek Hoplites ,Saracen Cavalry charges and even Alexander the Great used...
Those are not fancy formations for specific battles, they were used generally in most battles. The formations depended more on the commanders than on the soldiers... I would guess it would give some meaning to tactics skill if it enabled new formations( who cares about advantage points anyways =P ).
I guess poorly organized troops were due to poor experienced or trained commanders who ignored the great advantages of formations in combat.
The battles were mostly disorganized because most knights were nobles and were taught how to fight but not how to command... They were just warriors ... Many mercenary units were "unbeateable" because their leader had experience in battles and knew how useful men could be arranged to achieve certain purposes.
In Europe, horses were too expensive ,that's why mostly knights used them. Most battles had a handful of horseman,and bunches of footmen and archers. Battles were brutal and caotic, in the heat of battle noone could differ friend from foe, they only kept bashing what was ahead, THAT was the reason of the simple formations.
Well, i think i said enough.
Good tactics = more knowledge = more formations or acess to formations!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOkay!
PS: I think i told but i would like this AFTER the better troops AI update so horsemen or any kind of fighters in the way would not be a problem =D

I'd like to see a 'tactics' button when in the world map. You could basically give instructions for your soldiers, so that do they by default follow you, seek the enemy, etc. And whether they charge the enemy when they get near (as they do now) eventhough you told them to stand still, or wait until they are a swords length away. Actually it would kick ass if you could define the distance that your guys actually hold position before they go completely ape****. You know, simple behavior changes, like in Fallout 2. The feature could be incredible hard to code into the game, so I won't lose any sleep over it.

I don't confess to know all things m&b, but does it actually have any historical basis? If not, then the argument against formations on the grounds of historical accuracy is pretty much moot.

And even if it were not, gameplay definitely trumps accuracy. Even the Total War games have lots of discrepancies, but who's complaining, really?

Some organization, at least for clarity's sake and for ease of control, would be preferable. I'd like to be able to give point-and-click movement/attack orders as well...

I have to side with the 'formations are out of place' mob here...

Battles of this time period were quite a chaotic affair once the battle had started...

However, I would like to at least be able to start the battle in some kind of order..

"Archers line up on that hill.. Infantry form up at the base of the hill... Cav, Form up on me.."

Then be able to order troops according to type...

"Archers fire at will (poor will), Inf protect the archers, Cav charge!!!!!!"

I think formations would not matter that much, but implementing unit groups might actually be useful. This would mean that you have the current orders, but you can issue them to either the whole party, or just the cavalry/infantry/bowmen. This would require 3 additional keys, or a very basic menu system.
Another thing that would be nice is a "take position" order. Generated from the map, the units would have some info on what the advantegeous positions on the map are (hills, for example), and when they're issued this order, they would seek out the nearest such position. This would result in archers being clumped up on a hill, the infantry defending them, and the cavalry lying in wait for an attack. Then, the archers would start firing when the enemy comes close enough, and the rest would rush into the fray of battle at the push of the "Charge" button. Something similar could possibly be done with the enemies. This game needs a bit of team AI, so that the units don't only think as individuals.

Let me say some things...

pkt-zer0 said:

I think formations would not matter that much

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Just ask your soldiers if they like being mobbed by hundreds of soldiers instead of fighting in formation and lessen the power of numbers while battling near narrow places=)

pkt-zer0 said:

This game needs a bit of team AI, so that the units don't only think as individuals.

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Agreed 120% =)

pkt-zer0 said:

implementing unit groups might actually be useful.

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GREAT IDEA DUDE! That would make commanding 1000000 times easier, and it would make formations work too! hehehehehe Ok ok i know i'm just being selfish

Slyloki said:

I have to side with the 'formations are out of place' mob here...

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That's your loss

Slyloki said:

Battles of this time period were quite a chaotic affair once the battle had started...

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DUUUUUUUUUUH! ALL battles are =)
Or you never watched a documentary or something like it about wars?
Battles ALWAYS were chaotic, messy and gory! From ancient times till today... Mind friendly fire dude! If battles were not chaotic noone would be hit by friendly fire... But that's no reason to say formations didn't exist... For Something's sake dude... I guess ppl here really can't differ the times called dark ages( early medieval times by the eyes of old historians) and the middle ages(how modern historians call the same early medieval times but with more knowledge and consideration that things were not as confused as ppl used to think). They were not a bunch of dummies fighting like savages without the slighest tactics, only thinking "I'm gonna rip off your head!"... If someone said to a group of ppl : "Form up a straight line!" ,they'd UNDERSTAND! Most ppl couldn't read or write, (ok! that's true) but it doesn't mean they were retards...
Just shout your troops form a square stand shoulder to shoulder and maybe, just maybe they will not be slaughtered like pigs!

Oh! I think my idea would be easier to do... for yours, soldiers AI would have to be extremely good so they would even be able to recognize the ground and find a good spot, and i have looked around in some dumb robot programation games(like MindRover) and i guess it'd be a hell of a job to the devs... Correct if i'm wrong but they made their engines from the scratches... It'd mean a lot of working in AI...

Well, i guess i said all i needed or remembered to say =P
Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
Cya

Lost_Brazilian said:

Slyloki said:

I have to side with the 'formations are out of place' mob here...

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That's your loss

Slyloki said:

Battles of this time period were quite a chaotic affair once the battle had started...

Click to expand...

DUUUUUUUUUUH! ALL battles are =)
Or you never watched a documentary or something like it about wars?

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Nah, not really my loss, coz I don't see it happening in M&B anyway, so it's someone elses loss...

As for the chaos, sure there is always an element of chaos, my point however is more about the difference of the use of formations throughout the ages... If people are expecting formations such as seen in napoleonic times, or even roman times, then they are dreaming...
As I mentioned in a previous post, at best you can hope to deploy your troops at the start of the battle, but once it's on furggedaboutit...