Ukraine Today

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Holy ****! Didn't know this was going down  :cry: That looks/sounds like serious ****.

Is this the start of a civil war or what!? Need to go back and reread this thread, but appreciate if anyone can synthesize who is versus who in this.

Jesus, its like the whole planet is going crazy . . .
 
Loads of water throwers firing at once at the burning barricades all of a sudden now.

And then they just stop.



I see that the big building at the side of the plaza is only building on one side any more. The side where the police is.
 
Anthropoid said:
appreciate if anyone can synthesize who is versus who in this.

Hm, well, in a nutshell to go through last four years:
Nowadays president of Ukraine is a criminal, who's been to jail twice. He grew up in a reaaaaaally bad neighborhood and had his own gang. During his presidentship the corruption grew up enormousley, destroying the economy. Of course corruption was support with implementing more "dictatorship" environment - Mass Media censorship, corrupted judges, increasing a number of police. Later there were elections, where his Party of Regions actually lost it, but due to mass machinations the majority in the parliament was formed by them. Since Kiev hated him and his party they didn't even allow to provide the elections of the mayor! Such policy throughout the whole time made people angry. And in the end it all burst out in mass protests with demand of president's retirement. But the problem is, that after all corruption scandals, and the amounts of time he violated the law he simply cannot go to retirement, because he will be arrested immediately.

That's why his only hope is to destroy the protests... phisically, so that no one would be brave enough to protest (same like in Russia and Belorus). He thought they will end up after his ignoring them, but he was wrong. But the problem is that a lot of poor (lumpen, ochlos) people in the country are easilly manipulated via propaganda and they beleive that it's not a protest against the government, but an attempt of Opposition to come to power (which is partly true). It's not a civil war, it's a battle between people who want to change the government & the system and corrupted policemen. The other side of people do not support protests due to missinformation and naiveness. But they will not fight against them with firearms. That's why it's not a civil war.

The protests were peaceful, but during this time people got arrested for nothing throughout the whole country. Also people simply knew that this man will not go away by himself, but only after showing force. That's why a lot of people didn't support peaceful protests and after 2 months of ineffectiveness it went in a radical scenario as more effective. Of course, as radical as they were, they weren't so dengerous, but police has taken firearms and real granades. How can you shoot in an unarmed man?? But police does this. So it's up to people wether to die under rain of bullets, or get your own...

Also, russian president Vladimir Putin is very nervous. If mass protests win in Ukraine, they might "infect" Russia. Despite the fact, that chances of 'infection' is very low, he demands from Yanukovich to crackdown the protest. That's why Putin supports Yanukovich financially and... with ammunition, millitary and FSB (former KGB) advisers.
 
Anthropoid said:
Holy ****! Didn't know this was going down  :cry: That looks/sounds like serious ****.

Is this the start of a civil war or what!? Need to go back and reread this thread, but appreciate if anyone can synthesize who is versus who in this.

Jesus, its like the whole planet is going crazy . . .

In short - civilian are against current president and his political party. since they are completly corrupted and lost any support of the citizens.
100-600k people gethered each day for 2 month with no weapon for a protest. But no one heard them - and even more a lot of eople were inprisoned or wounded be the police.
 
Thanks guys. Just re-read the entire thread and your syntheses help to put it all together. So basically, the current ruler is a criminal who is backed by Putin?

What is this business up above I read about one of the leaders trying to impose a 'Ukrainization' and promoting neo-Nazi stuff?

Man a lot of those images are just  . . . bizarre . . . like something from a Fallout game or a Mad Max movie.
 
That's right, I was a bit too late.
But as I stood there I saw more vehicles depart. There were only like several hundred of protesters and police easily swept them aside.
For the most part there was minimum violence. Some more active protesters got minor injuries though (from rubber batons). Very few people had masks and none wore proper riot equipment. People mostly tried to reason with the military. Some fighters looked away, some flipped off the crowd and promised to come back for them.
My city is among the richest in the country and certainly the most relaxed and politically apathetic. Odessa is not fighting.

Anthropoid said:
What is this business up above I read about one of the leaders trying to impose a 'Ukrainization' and promoting neo-Nazi stuff?
That is also true.
As the situation on the streets became more heated, many moderates bailed out while more radicalized groups sallied. Neo-nazis among them.
Not to mention that one of the opposition leaders is a known nationalist with a very brown past.
But I've also seen Antifa boys during the protest in Odessa. It's a mixed bag.
 
Anthropoid said:
What is this business up above I read about one of the leaders trying to impose a 'Ukrainization' and promoting neo-Nazi stuff?
Oh, it's a long story:
Before the Second World war Ukraine was devided between USSR and Poland. Polish (western) part saved its Ukranian identity, and Eastern... well, there was a Great Hunger (Holodomor) artificially made by Stalin to destroy native ukranians and force them to move from villages to the cities. Millions of ukranians have died. Cities were artificially colonized by russians and thus the towns became russian speaking. In such way Stalin wanted ukranians to lose its identity. During the WWII western Ukraine was occupied by USSR, where ukranian nationalists were repressed immediately by Stalin with his old well-known policy. Of course it caused an opression from local ukranians (that did not have this hunger, and saved their identity). And at this time Germans invade USSR. At the beggining Germans used western ukranian hatred to the Soviet Union. Western Ukraine formed nationalistic troops to fight against USSR and form they're own government. But Germans disappointed Westerners too, so this troops started to fight against both the Reich and USSR.
Because of this previous cooperation Soviet propaganda created a stereotipe that all ukranian-speakers are nazis, fascists and etc. Right now government uses this myth to manipulate russian speaking colonizers.

The propaganda is strong, especcially in Russia. East Ukraine as most russian colonized also watches russian TV channels and they think that Ukranian speaking Maidan is filled with Nazi's. But it's the same thing as call all german speaking people - nazi's. But this people do have a bit of nationalism (or rahter say patriotism) - they (and me) want to have a government that supports native ukranian language, history (not in 'soviet style'), heroes and customs, while russian speaking part tends to sympathize to Russia. Nad even desintegrate from Ukraine and integrate russia. But its nothing elese as sympathy, not a real desire, since they are russian speaking, but not with russian identity. They have soviet identity. Oh, yeah, and this poeple with no identity actually form modern Ukranian government. They do not represent ukranian nation. They are post-colonists. That's why they are so corrupted - they simply do not care what will happen with Ukranian government. They pretty much can devide it in to countries, destroy it, and rule in eastern parts where they have more support. And that's why protestors demand to have patriotic Ukranian oriented government (not russian oriented). That's where it is natinalistic, but not in an ordinary eropean understanding. I, for one, is russian speaking, but I am of ukranian identity. And no body cares what language you speak and what color is your skin, but all that is demanded is to tolerate and respect everything 'ukranian'.

How can a president not be a patriot of his country??

And it's pretty sad that EU and other West follows this Nazi propaganda which is formed by russian government. 
 
That makes sense; thanks.

The fact of cretins like Lenin and Stalin whose legacy is generation after generation of suffering, almost makes one want to believe that there IS a hell in which they are suffering eternally.
 
There is more to it, Anthropoid.
There is a very real rift between eastern and western parts of the country and trueten makes it very clear.
Ukraine was divided between Poland and Russian Empire for centuries. Both parts were heavily influenced by their respective hegemons. My city, for instance, was founded as a Russian city and only later became Ukrainian. My native language is Russian but I am a Ukrainian and I obviously am very worried about my country. Trueten unreasonably insults me by claiming I am less of a Ukrainian than he is.
I don't even want to react to his apology of UPA fighting for Nazi Germany. This is a painful topic that still divides people and it's not just Soviet propaganda.

I am massively disappointed certain opposition forces try to present this struggle as West vs. East, while it should be modern civil society vs. old corrupted regime. Such rhetorics divide, while we should concentrate on consolidating progressive people from different backgrounds.
 
Thanks for the insights to all of you guys. I'm glad that, even if you don't all see eye-to-eye, you are all at least able to converse here at Taleworlds.

I hope for all of your sakes' and the world's, that Ukraine finds a resolution that is mutually agreeable to all disputants, and soon.

However, I have to be honest; those look like some serious protests. When it gets to the point where thousands or tens of thousands of people are taking over buildings and city blocks, barricading out "the authorities," hurling molotov cocktail one after the other . . . seems just a few steps from civil war to me.
 
http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-central-kiev-protest/

Is that a drone flying over the protest?

Look for a floating green light.

Edit:
Holy **** it is and there shooting fireworks at it!
 
It's a multicopter with a camera. That's how they shoot bird's eye view of the crowd.

In other news, dozens of people were reportedly killed tonight, including at least one journalist. The storm is still going on.
 
Weaver said:
Trueten unreasonably insults me by claiming I am less of a Ukrainian than he is.
I didn't. You probably missread my posts. In any case my apologize if I did. I'm really shocked at Odessa being so active and reasonable. Well, it's an intellectual city after all.

Hell, I've slept for two hours and the Maidan is still there! Glory to the poeple that did not surrender. And God bless the souls of the fallen one's. They are heroes.

Some photo-report from this hell of a night:
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Officially: 25 poeple died.
 
EU is not idle, as evidence by both national leaders and Catherine Ashcroft on trying to communicate with both Putin and Yanukovych. Problem is that Ukraine is geopolitically extremely important for Russia, so Putin isn't likely to budge, and any overt support from EU would just fuel the Russian propaganda that all the protesters are just on American/EU payroll. Though that propaganda is already rolling fairly freely, so who knows if it could get any worse. But there's not much that EU can do. Any sort of actual intervention would be impossible, due to Russian resistance, and there is no covert support pipe that EU could utilize - if it could even decide to act in a coherent manner.

The situation is constantly being updated in the media, for what that's worth.
 
trueten said:
I didn't. You probably missread my posts.
In that case reciprocal apology would be in place.
I just have this knee-jerk reaction every time I hear we lost our identity here.
Jhessail said:
EU is not idle
It is idle. And pretty much powerless.
What's it gonna do? Boycott Sochi again?
Not that we blamed them. It's our fight.
Jhessail said:
any overt support from EU would just fuel the Russian propaganda that all the protesters are just on American/EU payroll. Though that propaganda is already rolling fairly freely, so who knows if it could get any worse.
No, it's really not. Who would ever believe people are willing to give away their lives for a couple of franklins?
They do say that opposition leaders are on American/EU payroll. But that's actually true.

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Si-A-erra. said:
Whoever let a kid in there deserves a gas canister to the face, wtf.
Maybe he ran from his guardians to fight for his country freedom?

Kids joined the army during WW1-2 willingly.

Sure they were mostly aged 15-17 but kids nevertheless.

 
Weaver said:
I just have this knee-jerk reaction every time I hear we lost our identity here.
I meant Eastern Ukraine. The Industrial centres that were mostly colonaized by people throughout the whole Union.

]
These photoes are from 18th. It was before a crackdown attempt.
 
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