the Golden Horde!!!

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Ok,if you read my previous posts about the "Mongol Warrior", you could gather that i really build my character after that. So bear with me for a sec until i get to the meat of my question.

horse_archer.jpg

My hunter has a Steppe Hat/Cracked Pointed Helm, Mail Haubrek, Leather boots and gloves, a Khergit Bow, Bodkin arrows, Nordic Shield , and cav. saber, with a charger and 2 steppe horses as back up.


My war band is max at 22, and currenty i have 19 men.
14 Black khergit horse master
2 Swadian Knights
1 Vagegir Knight
Bombatu

First of all, my Khergits are very good fighters, excellent, but 1) How can they stand up to Knights...while they are very good at hit and run and even flat out fights, a charge of Knights will knock out a lot of my nomads.

2)Second, what do the upgrades should i get for my horsemen when they level( Ex a black khergit horsemaster can be upgraded to a cataphract and something else :?: ....which are best for me to chose if my army build style is Mongol/Nomad.

3) Should i dismiss the knights?...i realise it might reduce my battle potential considerably BUT...it would not be true to the Nomad build, would it?

4) How do i get more slots......i realize i need more charisma but this is taking forever...i need a faster way of leveling up..( i know is leadership but how do i get it faster without using cheats...how much charisma per leadership level??)

5) hardcore mongol style...should i do it ?? ( that is , nomad warrriors carried lances, dried meat....etc)So should i abide by those rules as best i can? Heres the link where i got some info at. http://www.laohats.com/mongolian invasion.htm6) What are some good caravan routes to prey on?? I got a trade route map but i cant seem to find the caravan routes all that well. Does anyone know the times of day??[/b]

I realise this is a bit hectic and if theres anything that does not make sense to anyone, or something that i made a mistake on let me know. Thanks in advance
 
1 using khergit means you have to use different tactics. hit and run and shooting

2 i don't know to much about the mongol style so i don't know

3 it's all up to you! play the game the way you want to.

4 cheats and the leadership skill

5 again it's all up to you.

6 they seem pretty random to me

i like a player who roleplays the game like you do. i do the same thing exept with different storys etc. so as to questions 3 and 5 ill tel you this. just think about how you would enjoy the game most.
 
1-)You need a LOT of men as golden horde was a huge huge army.You will be most effective against infantry tough..
2-)They have to be fast and using ranged weapons.So cataphract wont be good as they are heavily armed byzantine/greek cavalry(AFAIK).
3-)Yes if you want to roleplay correctly, you have to dismiss them.If you want infantry you have to recruit some medium armored, polearmed men.
4-)3 charisma = 1 leadership AFAIK. (I'm just a trial player.I'll buy at the and of this month.Salary day YAY!)
5-)If you really want to act as a mongol army, you have to attack everyone you see, loot all the caravans, free all the prisoners etc.You will be barbarian...

I hope it helps...
 
You should probably be wearing lamellar or scale, not a mail hauberk, that was European style. It is thought that Mongol "nobility" or upper caste had heavier armaments, including horses. You could use a Warhorse but it wouldn't suit the style of play.

The Mongols relied on a mass of light cavalry, which I am sure you know. There is little point in having an armoured core in M&B, as you probably won't get a fair percentage on the field at once and the few there will charge and get killed while the rest skirmish.

If you're looking for foot troops, try Vaegir Archers. About as close as you're going to get to a foot unit. The Mongols did not often use a foot force, unless of besieging of course.

As for food, stay away from grain. I can't see the point of using it as it was often used for feeding horses. The Mongol Steppe Horses were not grain reliant like the Western heavy Destriers that carried Men-at-Arms and Knights.
 
1)mongol worriors have 3 horses each, so they can rotate their horses between battles and during long treks...

2)their horseman only wear light leather armor, use short stirups so they actually squat on their horses.

3)they guide their horses using only the stirups, not by the reins

4)because they 'squat' on their horses, mongol horseman are able to thrust their spears and stand up at the same time while at a full charge, thats why mongols ruled those knights in heavy armor.

5)only mongol infantry wear heavy and medium armor, their horseman uses light leather armor because mongol horse are much smaller.

6)they bring their families along during extended operations, the women folk and children will recycle arrows and other weapons/armor from the battlefield.

7)mongols eat horsemeat
 
If your roleplaying do what fits around your back story. Just, i dunno, pretend they were prisoners who began to suffer from the Stockholm syndrome.
 
honkytonk said:
5)only mongol infantry wear heavy and medium armor, their horseman uses light leather armor because mongol horse are much smaller.

7)mongols eat horsemeat

5-)That's because they use bow and lance on their horses so they have to be accurate so if they wear plate mail they can't even move...yes their horses are smaller but that doesn't mean they are weaker.Also they are faster...

7-)And they drink "kımız".It is a mix of horse blood and horse milk.
 
5)only mongol infantry wear heavy and medium armor, their horseman uses light leather armor because mongol horse are much smaller.

Wrong. A large portion of most Mongol armies, especially the later ones (Ogadei/Kublai Khan etc) were heavily armoured, not dissimilar to the cataphracts the topic creator mentioned. Thus, a balance of light horse archers and heavy chargers (in a ratio of maybe 2:1?) would be most suitable.
 
Duncan_Hardy said:
5)only mongol infantry wear heavy and medium armor, their horseman uses light leather armor because mongol horse are much smaller.

Wrong. A large portion of most Mongol armies, especially the later ones (Ogadei/Kublai Khan etc) were heavily armoured, not dissimilar to the cataphracts the topic creator mentioned. Thus, a balance of light horse archers and heavy chargers (in a ratio of maybe 2:1?) would be most suitable.

Oh? hmmm never heard of this before, is there anywhere i read bout this duncan? from what i know its their light calvary that trashed the european heavy knights, no mention of any mongol heavy knights...
 
Mortiis said:
Heavily armored mongol cavalry, taking european cavalry with melee? Nonsense.
Only partly... The Mongol nobles were actually fairly heavy, just not knight-heavy. Those Mongols that fought the Hungarians at the bridge over the river Sajó at the battle of Mohi, were in fact heavy enough. Not just light cavalry. And they deployed vital heavy cavalry at the battle of River Kalka.

Basically all steppe armies were mainly light horse archers, with some lightly armoured horse archers and a corps of heavy cavalry (generally nobles). All carried bows so they could fight in the usual steppe fashion, but the heavies could also deliver the needed punch to break a foe that was reeling.

But from there to the Mongols actually engaging the knights in a stand-up fight is a long way. They were not stupid and knew the kngihts were at their best in melee or when they could charge a target. But isolated units and infantry would not be free from the heavy cavalry.
 
Just about everything I know about the Mongols comes from Genghis Khan's time, but I'll offer what I can.

Tarrak said:
Mortiis said:
Heavily armored mongol cavalry, taking european cavalry with melee? Nonsense.
Only partly... The Mongol nobles were actually fairly heavy, just not knight-heavy...
Basically all steppe armies were mainly light horse archers, with some lightly armoured horse archers and a corps of heavy cavalry (generally nobles)...
But isolated units and infantry would not be free from the heavy cavalry.
Thank you! Yes, the majority of the men were light horsemen, but Genghis often had a bodyguard of heavily armed and armored paladins (the Raging Torrents, weren't they?). At its peak, the guard was up to a thousand men, who decided the battle on more than one occasion.
Also, yes, light cavalry would often pepper units, then employ the feigned retreat, to get the enemy to charge and become disorganized. Then, when their foes were tired and the formation lost, the light cavalry would turn around and destroy the heavy infantry.

@ Mortilis--At it's height under Genghis, the Horde is believed to have been between 100,000 and 150,000 men--certainly not a massive army for an empire the size Genghis held.
5-)If you really want to act as a mongol army, you have to attack everyone you see, loot all the caravans, free all the prisoners etc.You will be barbarian...
True to some extent, but "The King of All Men" certainly didn't run around destroying everything the first chance he got. When dealing with his neighbors to the West (was it the Persians? Maybe some other Muslim nation? I forget), Genghis Khan went about the situation diplomatically, allowing the Persians to make the first mistake (killing the Mongol ambassadors), then crushing their empire.
Also, yes, I believe the drink was fermented, and somewhat alcoholic.

@ honky--Well, the amount of horses each man had is debated, but certainly there wasn't a uniform number for every man. Generally I've heard between 3 and 7 (though I read an article claiming that each man had twenty horses :roll: ).


I've always wanted to try this, and I think I might, after I finish my huge-European-army-character.
 
Mortiis said:
5-)That's because they use bow and lance on their horses so they have to be accurate so if they wear plate mail they can't even move...yes their horses are smaller but that doesn't mean they are weaker.Also they are faster...

5-) The reason why Monguls didn't wear plate armor (BTW 'plate mail' is a misnomer as mail strictly refers to chain armor) is because it was not invented, and even if it had been it would be much to expensive to outfit many warriors with steel plate. Also, plate armor would not have been to much of a hindrance to a horse, a whole suit weighs only 40 pounds. The main reason european cavalry horses had to be stronger was because of the massively heavy war saddles as well as the added weight of their riders. And yes, when talking about traditional cavalry, smaller does mean weaker. Mongul cavalry was not meant for power but for speed, they practiced hit and run types of maneuvers with mounted archers.
 
Invisinerd said:
5-) The reason why Monguls didn't wear plate armor (BTW 'plate mail' is a misnomer as mail strictly refers to chain armor) is because it was not invented, and even if it had been it would be much to expensive to outfit many warriors with steel plate. Also, plate armor would not have been to much of a hindrance to a horse, a whole suit weighs only 40 pounds. The main reason european cavalry horses had to be stronger was because of the massively heavy war saddles as well as the added weight of their riders. And yes, when talking about traditional cavalry, smaller does mean weaker. Mongul cavalry was not meant for power but for speed, they practiced hit and run types of maneuvers with mounted archers.

Sorry I had to make an account just to say this. "Plate Armor" is indeed different than "Plate Mail", but Plate Mail is no misnomer.

Plate Mail consists of three layers and was used for heavy cavalry units between 1250 and 1450 or so. It consisted of a soft, lightweight leather padding on the shoulders and other areas such as the groin, elbows, knees and cap for the top of the head.

Overtop of this was a layer of chainmail which usually was a hauberk, mittens, coif and leggings. And finally the 3rd layer was the plate armor, which was strapped overtop of the chainmail.

The reason for the middle layer of chainmail was because plate armor, while protective enough against arrows and slashing weapons, was horribly vulnerable at joints such as behind the knees, ankles, underarms and the crook of your elbow.

If the unit were to be knocked off his mount, the weight of the plate mail (ranging anywhere from 60 to a hefty 75 pounds) could be used to the wearer's advantage to thrust that same weight against his opponents.

It wasn't uncommon to see a cavalry knight unmounted and using his shield to knock down enemies, and simply deliver a coup de grace while the opponent was on the ground or trying to regain balance.

I know its off topic, but.. meh I'm picky. Sorry.
 
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