Serious Occult Meddling Discussion (formerly Yard1's Serious Occult Meddling)

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Dusk Voyager said:
Despite that I admit to sharing some tweaks, it seems like a hypocritical cop-out for me to openly distribute every potential big change I could make all the while being too lazy to join the coding team (just speaking for myself, no offense to others).

I for one don't like to "join" other teams in scenarios where I can do everything myself (i.e. the code); distributing work would just lead to confusion, personally.
This is especially true if you join external teams where everyone might have a different idea etc.

Trust me I can code 8 hours straight if nobody talks to me, but having to discuss every detail would make me lose "momentum".
Yeah, some coders have "momentum", once they start they must not be bothered or they "lose the spaghetti" aka lose the flow of thoughts and the mental order you have in your head in relation to your code when you are writing it.
Think of a writer being disturbed and forgetting parts of the plots, actions of his characters etc and having to remember what he wanted to do, how he wanted it, etc.

Problem with Pendor is that while the mod is great, it is built on an old Warband base so for instance battles are a joke full of bugs whereas a Pendor battle under Silverstag's code would be fantastic.
Pendor inside an old codebase is like a diamond tossed into a mud puddle, a shame for such a great mod. :smile:
 
Falconian said:
I for one don't like to "join" other teams in scenarios where I can do everything myself (i.e. the code); distributing work would just lead to confusion, personally.
That's entirely your problem. It is your choice not to use the only viable option of changing PoP.

Elensil the Numenorean said:
Im just saying if there could be open doors to new people to contribute somehow, that'll be great. This WILL make this game get new improvements.
You are one of the two people I have blocked on this forum for pestering me with PMs despite warnings not to do so. That's not how you contribute.

Attila7 said:
MadVader said:
SD's thinking (which is the same as mine) is not to share features unique to PoP with the modding community. This keeps PoP unique.
For example, I could publish the CKO source code in the Forge, but then many active mods will likely scoop it up. (Or, in the past, the Borg Floris would automatically absorb it :smile:)
While I've sometimes shared minor pieces of code in the Forge before, I firmly believe that the really important work should not be given away. Why would people play your mod if it plays and looks the same as several other mods?

I think this is what rubs many people the wrong way and this line of thinking seems to me to violate the spirit of modding.

It is my understanding that PoP uses things that were created by others and then released to the community. If those people would have had the above attitude, PoP would not be what it is or it would have taken far longer to create.

This jealous protection of one's work -- that was partly built on the work of others -- may make PoP "unique", but it is bad form, for it is somewhat of an unwritten code that if you use someone else's work in your mod, you should return the favor by letting others learn from your work.

Perhaps if more people shared their work, instead of having a few great mods and many mediocre ones, we'd get more great mods that everyone could enjoy.
Just no. Other people's work used by PoP is properly credited, and that's that. Much of PoP was NOT "built on the work of others", but is completely original work. I'd assume you don't have much original work to your name, or invested much time and effort in anything for free, or you'll know why you don't just give it away.

Much of this debate is not about one correct way of looking at things, but two distinct and legitimate viewpoints.
Players/consumers want better choice of mods, and sharing between mods could help there.
Modders want their mods to be unique and popular, and are reluctant to give away their hard work.
Players want modders to share and try to argue that sharing is great. It's great for the players, but not so much for the modders.
 
MadVader said:
I'd assume you don't have much original work to your name, or invested much time and effort in anything for free, or you'll know why you don't just give it away.

Not to drag this philosophical discussion out too long, but I cannot leave your statement unanswered...

The internet is full of Open Source Projects of all kinds, much of it rather original and unique and I have done my share to contribute.

There are lots of OSP code and art to be found in M&B mods as well (not mine), that are arguably original. I know why they were given away and I know why you and the PoP team does not follow that philosophy.

Just don't try to make it sound like anyone who has ever created an original work, or invested much time and effort in anything for free, won't just give it away.
 
Attila7 said:
MadVader said:
I'd assume you don't have much original work to your name, or invested much time and effort in anything for free, or you'll know why you don't just give it away.

Not to drag this philosophical discussion out too long, but I cannot leave your statement unanswered...

The internet is full of Open Source Projects of all kinds, much of it rather original and unique and I have done my share to contribute.

There are lots of OSP code and art to be found in M&B mods as well (not mine), that are arguably original. I know why they were given away and I know why you and the PoP team does not follow that philosophy.

Just don't try to make it sound like anyone who has ever created an original work, or invested much time and effort in anything for free, won't just give it away.
Nicola Tesla anyone?
 
Attila7 said:
MadVader said:
I'd assume you don't have much original work to your name, or invested much time and effort in anything for free, or you'll know why you don't just give it away.

Not to drag this philosophical discussion out too long, but I cannot leave your statement unanswered...

The internet is full of Open Source Projects of all kinds, much of it rather original and unique and I have done my share to contribute.

There are lots of OSP code and art to be found in M&B mods as well (not mine), that are arguably original. I know why they were given away and I know why you and the PoP team does not follow that philosophy.

Just don't try to make it sound like anyone who has ever created an original work, or invested much time and effort in anything for free, won't just give it away.
Okay, then I was wrong about you. You were right not to leave that unanswered. Though it's usually the freeloaders that use your arguments, and, yes, you don't give away your best stuff that took you a lot of trouble and time to the competition for almost zero effort on their part. Competition is of course one of the main drivers of modders trying to do something new and awesome.
 
I found this immensely ironic:

Falconian said:
The Dark Robin said:
If it was so easy to make Pendor, why don't you just go make it yourself?

I already did.
I made a version of Pendor that contains a dozen of submods and quality of live improvement scripts, 4k textures along with an EnB code I made myself, and I even made an Italian-language version.
I'm just not allowed to share them. If I was a **** I would upload them anyways and share them on /mbg/, but my dad raised me with honor talks and I'd feel guilty, hence why I prefer to talk about this humbly.

As for the follow-up of that quote, that made me laugh a bit when I considered the implications.
You know, although trying to dismissing criticism by discrediting the source is the weakest form of counter-argument for whoever knows the meaning of "ah hominem", it usually works when you're talking with someone who might have little clue of what he's talking about as people tends to weight the source more than the facts.
In this case though, since I know what I'm talking about, I'm afraid attacking my points might be actually - easier - than attacking me or my ability/knowledge.

Man, we just clogged into a loop here. :grin:

M0rdred said:
While in all that was a great post Falconian, the quoted part is simply not true. We have always been pretty open in our recruitment practices (just look at the many requests for help), and I am fairly sure that we're not turned people away. The problem is that once someone does agree to help, they soon fade away when they realise just how much time and effort is actually required in a mod of this scope and size. Many of the dev team I am sure would love to continue working on this mod, but there just isn't time to do so. Rent must be paid, lives must be lived - most of us were unemployed or students when we were most active, and life unfortunately, got in the way.

I applaud collaborative efforts, and I do admit that sometimes the attitude of fellow developers does jar with my own instincts (sorry MV!), I do also understand why they get so defensive about protecting what they have made. Pendor is a damn fine mod, and it has been among the top of the download charts for quite some time. We are very proud of this achievement, and the reputation for quality which goes along with it is something to cherish.

Oh I'm not saying that you don't recruit, I just happen to hear complaints from people who said when they tried to make submods or revised versions of Pendor they got mocked or denied.
I just don't understand, I would be happy if anyone took up my older mods and updated them.
Couple months ago someone updated my AoM mod where I added flaming shots FX's to ballistae and catapults, I was happy to see my work was updated.

Remember that MB devs were able to improve the game a lot thanks to modders, and recently stated they consider open source modding and modding accessibility a priority for MB.
The game itself is almost all open source, I don't really see why a mod for the game shouldn't.
It's not like we get paid for this anyways! Our reward is the fun that we create.


Anyways, I don't want to **** up the thread, just wanted to shell out my wisdom about the importance of modding collaboration and creativity sharing.

Oh?: (snipped link)

Oh....:
ouch_zps087c2328.jpg

Maybe you should be a good,respecting little boy you were raised as and actually take it down.
 
I'm curious as to how you managed to find it stashed in an .nz tld. I'm interested in why you even thought to check it.
 
Whitestrake said:
Anyone think MAYBE he dident do it and someone else uploaded some cheap modded PoP and placed his name as the file name?

No. The way he spoke/typed was similar and I read enough to know it was him. The whole thread provided enough of a hint.
 
I'm interested in what he has to say about it after talking about honor and a good upbringing... A man that does that has no Integrity whatsoever, and isent even a man.
 
Whitestrake said:
Anyone think MAYBE he dident do it and someone else uploaded some cheap modded PoP and placed his name as the file name?
No, I may have posted the wrong link, but he was the one who did it there so he's already contradicted himself.
 
Gosh, what a discussion....

Ehm....sorry for necroposting, but just like someone before me, I can't leave it unanswered. :smile:

MadVader said:
Why would people play your mod if it plays and looks the same as several other mods?

I play PoP because I really, really, really love the lore and the whole atmosphere. And as much as KOs and CKO are amazing, I could live without them. It's more like the general impression from the factions, the troops, the lore that makes you want to play a mod. The specific content and unique features are something that makes you truly enjoy (or not) the gameplay, but imo they don't really define whether you will want to play this mod again or not.
Maybe it works a different way for the others, but for me it's like that. Sometimes if find myself replaying some game and not really enjoying the process of it, but still playing despite that fact. And it's only because of the atmosphere. I might have learnt everything about the game, the game might have no alternative endings/walkthroughs (so it's absolutely the same every time I play it), but I still play it because the general impression makes me feel better. I might swear a lot over some bugged features or something like that but I will play it anyway.  :grin:
As for "to share or not to share", my humble opinion would be: it depends on whether the unique feature is directly connected to the lore.
If yes (like in case of KOs and CKO), then not to share. Otherwise all the mods will really become like one: same ideas, same atmosphere, which is definitely not good.
But if a feature is a general thing (like PoP's way of recruiting lords from prisoners), then sharing stuff like that across mods would improve them all while dealing no real damage to the uniqueness of the gaming experience.
Playing other mods now, I really miss that way of recruitment. I also really miss the influence of prisoner management on the chance of capturing lords. On the other hand, when I decide to play PoP again, I will really miss automatic relationship increases after battles, a list-of-lords-with-their-personalities-mentioned report and fief exchange from Floris as well as a neutral place to stash your troops and goods from Light & Darkness. All these things improve the gameplay while not making the mods similar and I can't help but keep dreaming that one day they will all be in each and every mod I love to play. I will happily play PoP or Perisno or Floris even without some of them, but if one day this cross-sharing occurs and these little currently unique features become a standard and start appearing in every good mod, that will be like one of the best days of my life.  :roll:

Anyway, that was just my opinion and me thinking out loud...
 
All these people buggering about free access to anything! NoKingNoQueenNoMaster! TheCheaperTheBetter! should read the standard EULA agreement. You know, the nasty box you simply tick on before you install anything just to get a clue what you paid for.

On the other hand, I´ve visited a Media Markt yesterday and saw - to my great amazement - that you can purchase a pre-release-reservation box for 5€ for a game. This means there are people around who will gladly give you money just to be able to purchase something for a dear price a few days earlier than the broad public.

And I reckoned compulsory education decreased the level of idiocity. It seems I was wrong. Greed is a *****.
 
Huh, it is kinda strange to look at what this thread changed into. Perhaps a topic name change is in order?

Anyway, if there is anybody still wondering about my tweaks, I still have them but I have lost almost all interest in Pendor, and I am too lazy to actually upload them. I have took them down because they were hastily made, buggy, untested, and I just couldn't support them.

So yeah. Kind of a **** move on my part.

Cheers.
 
Heh. Yeah, I know.

Still, if someone is desperate, they can use the Wayback Machine. Who knows, I might redo them, with more actual use and balance and less self indulgend fluff (but it's nice fluff :sad: )

If I have time, which is a prized commodity for me right now.

Well if devs would implement PBOD and Diplomacy (or just PBOD), I would play PoP non stop. Volley fire, where art thou?
 
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