Serious Occult Meddling Discussion (formerly Yard1's Serious Occult Meddling)

MadVader said:

And nothing good has come out of open-sourcing TLD except a lot of mindless (and weakly credited) "borrowing".

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You say "borrowing" like it's a bad thing that you resent. Making other mods better is certainly a good cause, and TLD models have proved useful for myself and many others. You are being credited, in every instance I have seen, I'm not sure what you mean by "weakly".

As for Pendor, I have no opinion on making it an OSP, but Mitchymatt has made the decision clear already. I'm just pointing out that open sourcing TLD was not necessarily such a bad thing as you suggest it was.

I would argue it's a bad thing overall. Of course it was the models and textures that got lifted first, the code was there for learning how to do certain tricks. As far as coding is concerned, you get better credits in the Forge if you OSP pieces of code there.
For the models, I guess different multiplayer mods milked what they were worth out of them, but I stilll can't see how the modding scene progressed, except in getting a lazy way out with orcs and such. Was it really worth it?
Pendor should get the OSP treatment as well when it's dead, as TLD did at the time. I have no high hopes for a community-improved PoP, except some inane and short-lived PoP Order multiplayer.

Of course, making a mod OSP will not make someone else take up the torch once the mod is dead; it hasn't happened to any of the other mods; Diplomacy, Floris, TLD, none had people pick up the torch for them, so naturally there should be little to no hope for community help. That doesn't mean their not being put to good use though; take a look at Cozur's ACOK mod for example.

Was it really worth it? I would return you a different question: What was the cost that it must be worth? As far as I can see, the only cost was making a dead mod marginally less unique.

I don't think "borrowing" is bad considering Pendor and most mods out there all pick a truckload of stuff from other mods.
Most armors, castles, formations, battle fixes, etc are all from open source mods with some minor changes slapped in.
Also lots of renamed native stuff, i.e. Valonbray is just Wercheg renamed with Historic Castles mod smashed in, Lords are renamed native's, companion talk about Nords - uh - Fierds making flax etc.
What's completely new is basically knighthood orders and a few other things, very little here is created from scratch.
If you take Floris and smash in the stuff from Pendor such as armors, map, rename towns/troops/lords and make more bandit parties (few hours of work) you already have Pendor 4.0 without KOs.

Let's be honest here.
Pendor has a good lore but it's nowhere Tolkien-tier stuff. It's ok.
Gameplay at this point is vastly behind other mods, lacking a ton of fundamental QoL improvements (just look at Floris/Silverstag).
Pendor wouldn't exist - or at least it would be very mediocre - without the other modders.

Modding communities are all about sharing (with credits given etc) and collaboration, and mods themselves aren't a tool to buff an empty ego, but rather, a creative art.
And a good creation requires collaboration and a tiny bit of humility, mind you, being humble is a virtue among creativity places.

Just my friendly advice: letting others improve (or more correctly, update) your mod does not take away any merit from you.
Pendor itself is your creation and augmenting it at best gives you even more credit rather than diminishing it.
It's a pity if a great mod is in semi-halted, obsolete status because you refuse help from people who have more time in their hands.

You will all die anyways so why hoarding? Share, create, borrow, make, invent, rebuild...
That's the good thing of free art, there is no money involved so any entitlement is pointless and only detrimental.

My 2 cents.

If it was so easy to make Pendor, why don't you just go make it yourself? I'm sure Pendor 4.0 could be done by a master modder such as you in a few hours, as you say.

I know where you're coming from, even agree with a few of your points; but 90% of your message is so naïve I can't stand to read it, honestly.

Falconian said:

It's a pity if a great mod is in semi-halted, obsolete status because you refuse help from people who have more time in their hands.

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While in all that was a great post Falconian, the quoted part is simply not true. We have always been pretty open in our recruitment practices (just look at the many requests for help), and I am fairly sure that we're not turned people away. The problem is that once someone does agree to help, they soon fade away when they realise just how much time and effort is actually required in a mod of this scope and size. Many of the dev team I am sure would love to continue working on this mod, but there just isn't time to do so. Rent must be paid, lives must be lived - most of us were unemployed or students when we were most active, and life unfortunately, got in the way.

I applaud collaborative efforts, and I do admit that sometimes the attitude of fellow developers does jar with my own instincts (sorry MV!), I do also understand why they get so defensive about protecting what they have made. Pendor is a damn fine mod, and it has been among the top of the download charts for quite some time. We are very proud of this achievement, and the reputation for quality which goes along with it is something to cherish.

M0rdred said:

Falconian said:

It's a pity if a great mod is in semi-halted, obsolete status because you refuse help from people who have more time in their hands.

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While in all that was a great post Falconian, the quoted part is simply not true. We have always been pretty open in our recruitment practices (just look at the many requests for help), and I am fairly sure that we're not turned people away. The problem is that once someone does agree to help, they soon fade away when they realise just how much time and effort is actually required in a mod of this scope and size. Many of the dev team I am sure would love to continue working on this mod, but there just isn't time to do so. Rent must be paid, lives must be lived - most of us were unemployed or students when we were most active, and life unfortunately, got in the way.

I applaud collaborative efforts, and I do admit that sometimes the attitude of fellow developers does jar with my own instincts (sorry MV!), I do also understand why they get so defensive about protecting what they have made. Pendor is a damn fine mod, and it has been among the top of the download charts for quite some time. We are very proud of this achievement, and the reputation for quality which goes along with it is something to cherish.

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QFT cuz i know cuz i ran away Sorry mord!

The Dark Robin said:

If it was so easy to make Pendor, why don't you just go make it yourself?

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I already did.
I made a version of Pendor that contains a dozen of submods and quality of live improvement scripts, 4k textures along with an EnB code I made myself, and I even made an Italian-language version.
I'm just not allowed to share them. If I was a **** I would upload them anyways and share them on /mbg/, but my dad raised me with honor talks and I'd feel guilty, hence why I prefer to talk about this humbly.

As for the follow-up of that quote, that made me laugh a bit when I considered the implications.
You know, although trying to dismissing criticism by discrediting the source is the weakest form of counter-argument for whoever knows the meaning of "ah hominem", it usually works when you're talking with someone who might have little clue of what he's talking about as people tends to weight the source more than the facts.
In this case though, since I know what I'm talking about, I'm afraid attacking my points might be actually - easier - than attacking me or my ability/knowledge.

Man, we just clogged into a loop here.

M0rdred said:

While in all that was a great post Falconian, the quoted part is simply not true. We have always been pretty open in our recruitment practices (just look at the many requests for help), and I am fairly sure that we're not turned people away. The problem is that once someone does agree to help, they soon fade away when they realise just how much time and effort is actually required in a mod of this scope and size. Many of the dev team I am sure would love to continue working on this mod, but there just isn't time to do so. Rent must be paid, lives must be lived - most of us were unemployed or students when we were most active, and life unfortunately, got in the way.

I applaud collaborative efforts, and I do admit that sometimes the attitude of fellow developers does jar with my own instincts (sorry MV!), I do also understand why they get so defensive about protecting what they have made. Pendor is a damn fine mod, and it has been among the top of the download charts for quite some time. We are very proud of this achievement, and the reputation for quality which goes along with it is something to cherish.

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Oh I'm not saying that you don't recruit, I just happen to hear complaints from people who said when they tried to make submods or revised versions of Pendor they got mocked or denied.
I just don't understand, I would be happy if anyone took up my older mods and updated them.
Couple months ago someone updated my AoM mod where I added flaming shots FX's to ballistae and catapults, I was happy to see my work was updated.

Remember that MB devs were able to improve the game a lot thanks to modders, and recently stated they consider open source modding and modding accessibility a priority for MB.
The game itself is almost all open source, I don't really see why a mod for the game shouldn't.
It's not like we get paid for this anyways! Our reward is the fun that we create.


Anyways, I don't want to **** up the thread, just wanted to shell out my wisdom about the importance of modding collaboration and creativity sharing.

very good post Falconian! I agree to 100%..

Falconian said:

The Dark Robin said:

If it was so easy to make Pendor, why don't you just go make it yourself?

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I already did.
I made a version of Pendor that contains a dozen of submods and quality of live improvement scripts, 4k textures along with an EnB code I made myself, and I even made an Italian-language version.

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Dark Robin has a point here, even if it's not about you personally. The most vocal advocates of giving out our sources are generally lazy freeloaders.


Some nice points in the following text, but PoP has a different strategy in managing would-be submods. If you want to change PoP and have the skills, simply join the team. Everything you could do from the outside can be better done from the inside, provided it's consistent with PoP (i.e. not random, stupid **** like slapping LoTR armor all around).

Falconian said:

Oh I'm not saying that you don't recruit, I just happen to hear complaints from people who said when they tried to make submods or revised versions of Pendor they got mocked or denied.

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It is always a possibility that any mockery was deserved, or denial pertains to distributing modified forms of PoP. Name specific cases and we can discuss them.

Falconian said:

Remember that MB devs were able to improve the game a lot thanks to modders, and recently stated they consider open source modding and modding accessibility a priority for MB.
The game itself is almost all open source, I don't really see why a mod for the game shouldn't.
It's not like we get paid for this anyways! Our reward is the fun that we create.

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SD's thinking (which is the same as mine) is not to share features unique to PoP with the modding community. This keeps PoP unique.
For example, I could publish the CKO source code in the Forge, but then many active mods will likely scoop it up. (Or, in the past, the Borg Floris would automatically absorb it )
While I've sometimes shared minor pieces of code in the Forge before, I firmly believe that the really important work should not be given away. Why would people play your mod if it plays and looks the same as several other mods?

Yeah, I agree that CKOs are a Pendor thing and wouldn't fit other mods.
I once tried using Pendor KO armors into Floris, it was horrible and I deleted the module on the spot

My idea was the opposite though: remake Pendor using another mod as a base, rather than using Pendor's stuff somewhere else.
Imagine Pendor based on Silverstag/Floris code with all those much needed improvements like Pre-battle orders, Lancer fix, Tournament enhancements, Diplomacy, Custom Commander, etc.
The aforementioned mods can't be simply "added" into Pendor sadly, they are python-based mods so you need to compile them directly into the Pendor source or compile Pendor's source into them.
But I'm pretty sure you guys already considered/discussed this between the team.

If one day you decide to allow that, give me an heads up.

Falconian said:

Yeah, I agree that CKOs are a Pendor thing and wouldn't fit other mods.
I once tried using Pendor KO armors into Floris, it was horrible and I deleted the module on the spot

My idea was the opposite though: remake Pendor using another mod as a base, rather than using Pendor's stuff somewhere else.
Imagine Pendor based on Silverstag/Floris code with all those much needed improvements like Pre-battle orders, Lancer fix, Tournament enhancements, Diplomacy, Custom Commander, etc.
The aforementioned mods can't be simply "added" into Pendor sadly, they are python-based mods so you need to compile them directly into the Pendor source or compile Pendor's source into them.
But I'm pretty sure you guys already considered/discussed this between the team.

If one day you decide to allow that, give me an heads up.

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Some of those are already in Pendor, but differently. Pendor and Diplomacy wouldn't fit well, for example, considering the new kingdom management features that Pendor adds. Your point about sub mods adding those is valid, but Mitchymatt has already said that won't be happening.

Sorry about being dickish at first, but understand where I was coming from; a recruit that I've never heard of touting their modding skills while asking for source code. Nothing against you personally.

I'm going to make this short because I am pretty exhausted at the moment: I am not trying to lay down the law-hammer and say NO NO NO NO you can't do this.

I got started adding my own things and meddling with the occult for crying out loud and I was noticed...

However, I'm not saying Prophesy of Pendor is going to ignore all these things and such because we're stubborn and old school. It's just that a lot of work has been put into polishing this mod, adding more, more, more, more at once just oversizes it and its like handing a blob of a mod over to people. "Here, have this mod that has so much features, you won't get lost in the lore, the story, the struggle, the difficulty, the fun."

We don't want people constantly staring into python mods and having mega management because they do get lost in it and that's what they do. If they have to fine tweak it, redo something. I can understand that it is EXTREMELY convenient to have these features, no doubt, it's just that it's not what Pendor is all about and for what it has and offers, is something amazing and special.

I also like to keep Pendor on the right track and make sure it has a chance and a future, and I've been around for 4 years with it. So far so good. Plus a lot of things need to go through SaxonDragon as he is the head moderator. He is the first one people go to ask when we want the go-ahead for something. It's something out of respect and for him to bring life to this story/mod, is good enough to honor forever.

Pendor has a great potential future with ideas/suggestions. But one thing at a time. It's just having a slow chug up a hill, but it will reach the top eventually once more.

I think I covered everything...

The Dark Robin said:

I would return you a different question: What was the cost that it must be worth? As far as I can see, the only cost was making a dead mod marginally less unique.

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The price is blood. And a dead mod is a dead mod. Recall and respect it´s glory and leave it unmolested.

Everything going OSP has led to a gazillion of minimods and other - usually crappy - minor modifications people boasted about and a multitude of confusing downloads and subboards. Which ends up in confused people who don´t know what they downloaded wether it was apples or pears they´re about to devour.

As long as a mod is alive and people are committing, contributed people will help each other and respond to questions in a more or less helpful way.

Because if you´re prepared to spend quite a lot time on a private project of yours without any actual benefit but a warm and cosy feeling inside you´re typically the sort of person which will answer and respond to intelligent questions. Just look at the Forge - it´s a good example because people asking questions there are usually doers and not simple users.

But the amount of doers compared to users is tiny, as each person has different gifts and one learns through trial and error. So while some people get headaches if they stare at code, others hide in a dark cellar if they should draw a story or create an awesome new item. Some people can´t see a difference in a texture which causes acute brain damage to someone else because something´s utterly wrong with it. Others can just imagine and feel how a certain troop or enemy should look to fit a certain role.
That´s different gifts, and if you´re lucky, you use the various abilities of your team to it´s fullest and thus strengthen it. And naturally, as you´re proud of the outcome, as every craftsman should be, you want to protect your work.

However, the vast majority of people is users. Most of them mindless, complaining, *****ing and missing the basics of IT with little to no knowledge or even understanding of the amount of work and commitment needed to push and polish something towards a high level of quality.
These are either helped or noosersed, depending wether they deserve a barrel of acid poured over them or not. 

Sorry for the long rant, the first line had your question covered, TDR.

I´m not responding to Falconian because he seems to be an idealistic person. Apart from that he´s honorable and italian, so probably Mafia, and dangerously close.  Apart from that, MV and MM said all thats left as a response.

MadVader said:

SD's thinking (which is the same as mine) is not to share features unique to PoP with the modding community. This keeps PoP unique.
For example, I could publish the CKO source code in the Forge, but then many active mods will likely scoop it up. (Or, in the past, the Borg Floris would automatically absorb it )
While I've sometimes shared minor pieces of code in the Forge before, I firmly believe that the really important work should not be given away. Why would people play your mod if it plays and looks the same as several other mods?

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I think this is what rubs many people the wrong way and this line of thinking seems to me to violate the spirit of modding.

It is my understanding that PoP uses things that were created by others and then released to the community. If those people would have had the above attitude, PoP would not be what it is or it would have taken far longer to create.

This jealous protection of one's work -- that was partly built on the work of others -- may make PoP "unique", but it is bad form, for it is somewhat of an unwritten code that if you use someone else's work in your mod, you should return the favor by letting others learn from your work.

Perhaps if more people shared their work, instead of having a few great mods and many mediocre ones, we'd get more great mods that everyone could enjoy.

noosers said:

However, the vast majority of people is users. Most of them mindless, complaining, *****ing and missing the basics of IT with little to no knowledge or even understanding of the amount of work and commitment needed to push and polish something towards a high level of quality.

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QfT.

Attila7 said:

Perhaps if more people shared their work, instead of having a few great mods and many mediocre ones, we'd get more great mods that everyone could enjoy.

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And the release of PoP to the public for all to enjoy does not constitute as "sharing work" for you?

It is such an oversimplification to say "they are just jealously protecting their work, that's why they don't share." I believe this thread has covered a lot of reasons why PoP is not open-source. People just don't seem to agree with these answers, so they say "bah, you are just selfish"

These were choices the developers made, and consumers should accept it as design decisions.

I'm 100% sure that a lot of modders have played PoP, was inspired by it, and created their own mod! Im 100% sure that a lot of games out there are all inspired by other games!!

Why has the expectation changed, where not only should developers create games, but open them up? Some do it on their own accord and and become even more successful (e.g Taleworlds with M&B; Obsidian and almost all their games). However, I do not think it is right that we expect everyone to do so.

Well, the mod is a charm by itself and the holding back is understanding to some extent, but i would find it cool if i could at least to have some place i could have a conversation with some still active modders, as i have for example made a horse fix for this game, which i think is actually content that the modders here could try out at least.

Everyone knows horses are overall OP in Pendor, riding down everything, taking 5-10 hits before going down, fights are won on horse and not on the ground, as opposite to medieval warfare techniques.

Im just saying if there could be open doors to new people to contribute somehow, that'll be great. This WILL make this game get new improvements.

But i guess you mods are so busy on the forums, you wouldnt want to open an extra occult meddlers+PoP modders alliance thread where we could share with the head modders some things which are in our powers to meddle ... I guess you think were all immature stupid idiots who were overwhelmed by PoP code anyway...

Now that was an immature post, if you think the devs think that.

Also, didn't you read this post?

M0rdred said:

We have always been pretty open in our recruitment practices (just look at the many requests for help), and I am fairly sure that we're not turned people away. The problem is that once someone does agree to help, they soon fade away when they realise just how much time and effort is actually required in a mod of this scope and size.

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If you and anyone else is actually really serious in helping out, all you have to do (I believe) is notify MitchyMatt, right?

A PM is usually all which is needed. If the person is approved, he/she will usually get access to the dev page where these things are discussed.

Despite that I admit to sharing some tweaks, it seems like a hypocritical cop-out for me to openly distribute every potential big change I could make all the while being too lazy to join the coding team (just speaking for myself, no offense to others).