[Debate] Gay marriage : Pro or against ?[New poll : Would you use a surrogacy ?]

Would you rent a surrogacy mother in case of infertility ?

  • Yes, but only national surrogacy (more expensive)

    Votes: 13 26.0%

  • Yes. Including outsourced cheaper surrogacy clinics ( India/Ukraine )

    Votes: 6 12.0%

  • No.

    Votes: 17 34.0%

  • I don't care

    Votes: 14 28.0%
  • Total voters
    50

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Amontadillo said:
Also general sex positivety, in recent times. Which is not a bad thing.
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It would if the stupid brats actually paid attention in school and learnt what a condom was.  :roll:
Or those bloody satanists stopped spreading pro-abstinence anti-protection crap.
See how that worked inside their own bloody church. :mad:
 
No Kobie, you can't just go and claim that Catholics are actually Satanists. That doesn't make sense. Unless you actually believe that they are actually worshipping an actual Satan.

Then it still doesn't make sense but then you at least have the excuse of being completely bonkers. :razz:
 
Pharaoh Llandy said:
TheOneWhoLived said:
(Fact: Gays in Serbia decided they wanted to have a party, so the government had to hire around a thousand law enforcers to protect them as they parade through the city, and have a party, as you would have guessed this cost a fortune, why? Because they announced they wanted an all-gay party.. these things make me angry.. in the end the law enforcers were there for no reason, because nobody did anything because nobody cared, the homosexuals just wanted attention and failed)
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It's hardly the fault of gay people that the police over-react, though. You should see it here, whenever there's a big football match or, or whenever the EDL or one of those other right-wing raciest groups decides to go on a march, or the students get uppity about their university fees. You can't move for police officers.

Sad fact is, whenever a group of people congregate, there's always going to be the fear of retaliation. And whichever politician or police chief is running things there is probably far more worried about being accused of not providing enough police if things turn bad, than being accused of providing too many police and erring on the side of caution.
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What I was trying to say was, why announce it on the news? If it were treated like a regular party, I'm guessing not many people would know about it, except those invited.. or am I missing the point
 
Yes, you are. The point is that, as this thread amply proves, prejudices and bigotry are alive and well. The gay pride marches and parades are one way to fight them. They also raise awareness and help people who are still stuck in the closet, to accept themselves by showing a positive public example.

Sure, sometimes they turn crazy - but so does Berlin's Love Parade and the Rio Carnival and every music festival ever.

edit, aimed at our new serbian friend.
 
TheOneWhoLived said:
I couldn't read through 50 pages of forum posts, so I just decided to throw my opinion out on the table (forum).

I used to hate gay people, and think that they are completely sick, but then after thinking it through I came to a realization.

  Studying the Biological Approach in Psychology, the question whether a gay person is born or nurtured is raised.
After looking at many many cases of straight children raised by homosexuals, to still grow up and stay a heterosexual, and the other way, one could pretty much say that one is born gay.

Now, being born something means it is in your genetic code, or you were affected by the level of hormones while still in the womb (could explain a case where one twin is gay and the other isn't). SO you could say its not a choice.

Now, if its not a choice, then they should not be hated, same as a person with brown eyes shouldn't be hated for having brown eyes. You might find their behavior disgusting, or sick.. but then again you might be doing something just as disgusting in someone else's eyes (nobody's the ultimate judge).

Now gay marriage? I believe it should be allowed, because if you prefer one sex to the other, then there is nothing you can do about it, and society should be accepting, not hating.

Now onto the part that makes me angry about gays is their parades, and the need to be acknowledged.. (of course this isn't every case)
But many gays, after "coming out of the closet" have a need to rub it in everyone's faces.
Just like I don't care if someone has brown eyes, I don't care if some guy likes ****.. just plain and simple, I don't want to know.


Final summation, I think there's nothing wrong with being gay, or having gay marriage, but seriously.... parades??? seriously??
(Fact: Gays in Serbia decided they wanted to have a party, so the government had to hire around a thousand law enforcers to protect them as they parade through the city, and have a party, as you would have guessed this cost a fortune, why? Because they announced they wanted an all-gay party.. these things make me angry.. in the end the law enforcers were there for no reason, because nobody did anything because nobody cared, the homosexuals just wanted attention and failed)



Over and out.
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But having sex with another person is a decision is it not? So you can still be of the opinion that bum****ery or whatever you call the act of anal coitus between two men is of satan and totally evil (so in essence being gay is OK, but acting out on is not). Your reasoning that because something happens regardless of someone's intentions (genetic code, womb being too full of ***** juice, whatever) is just plain stupid for lack of a better word and lacks any meaningful thought process behind it. Why? Because I can twist it around quite easily: Say I am genetically inclined to kill you. Should society allow me to do this because I am predisposed to do harm to you? If you are looking to build a functioning society the answer is no.

What you fail to touch upon is that bum****ery, when it is an act between two consenting adults and doesn't hurt anyone that is not participating with consent (it might hurt the one that gets his poop rammed in unless proper warm up is done), is a completely neutral act to the rest of the society meaning that it has (or at least shouldn't have) any effect on it. It's about drawing boundaries between your **** and my ****. Me rearranging some guy's poop in his butt with what happens to be my penis is none of your "****" if the guy in the process of being sodomized isn't screaming his safe word. I repeat; none of your ****ing business. It doesn't matter if I do it out of the pleasure of harming the other guy as long as the other guy consents. Genetic disposition never comes into it.

I could write a paragraph about how conjuring up some bull**** about "choice" independent of your genes or environment and using that as an excuse to condemn people's post-womb behaviour is beyond silly... buuuuuut cannot be arsed.  :razz:

And a party with quests? I cannot publicly announce it to get everyone to join because I'm gay? Well **** me, right? I don't think they had the address of every gay person in the whole nation so they can mail out invitations; it's not some sort of a secret society you know.
 
Obvious police brutality. They've already apprehended the man and there's no indication of any trouble around them nor is the suspect acting violently.

But that doesn't really have anything to do with Gay marriage, unless the suspect is gay, getting married and the cops are breaking apart the ceremony.
 
dinnerdog2zero said:
On a related note.

Old fashioned police brutality, or honest policemen apprehending a troublemaker under difficult conditions?

What are your thoughts?
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It goes in the long list of reasons why cops are assholes.
Especially that ****er saying "why you filming mate" and adding that the one recording should do whatever he says. Authoritarian scum with badges, filling your streets with "justice".

Reading the comments below hurts your eyes. It's mostly conservative christians saying what was done is right and homos deserve stuff like that along with your usual one-line "fag" accusation.
 
Considering i'm working i'm not sure to be able to make a volley of answer tonight, but if i can i will do, i'm not forgetting the previous argumented answers.
But first
I would like to thanks the force of liberal equal progress and freedom of exploitation for letting me see that.

Here a loobying poster for gay marriage in France. Since a large part of the population actually do care about this problem, loobyists are at work.


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/kiloutouf.png


Here a short translation
Kiloutouf hire 5000 women from 16 to 30 years

* CDD (short contract) of 9 months
* At home work
* Full medical coverage
* perfect job for student ( beginners and unqualified welcome)
* A lot of free time
* Substantial payroll (variable according to productivity )
Click to expand...

Even if it's " funny poster", it's somehow scary when it's come to ethics. This is renting a women uterus.
Is it any different from factory worker renting his arm, or from a prostitute  ?
Does choosing a father/mother in a catalog and then renting someone else to bear the child is a form of human exploitation/trafficking  as well as an ethical and moral abomination or is it perfect fine and it's part of the market of services ?
Is this progress ?
If the next step is growing baby in vitro artificial womb in labs. Will it be unethical or a part of progress as well ?

2nd information. For gay couple, China and Russia are closing their international adoption for country where homosexuals can adopt. The only choice left for them is Brazil, South Africa or US. Let just say it will be quite hard to have a children on international now.
Will it make artificial procreation more common ?

Let look at prices and business now.
A young child to adopt in agency cost around 30 000 $

Not enough cash but you don't wanna adopt a cheap african orphan ? Craft one yourself

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13460455 said:
Selecting a potential father for your children, it turns out, is not unlike shopping online.

"A lot of our clients typically want their donor to be at least 180cm [5ft 11in] tall and have blue eyes," says Peter Bower, director of Nordic Cryobank, who is showing me his database of sperm donors.
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With ovul "donation" and sperm IVF cost : 4500 to 6000 €
The donator of the ovum receive at best 1000€

However it's may depend of the DNA.
A tall harvard student may receive up to  50.000 $
The cheaper ovum are down to 3000 $

For sperm the price vary as well.
from 45 to 600 USD depending of the type, in the exemple of the danish sperm bank

http://dk.cryosinternational.com/private-customers/price-list.aspx

http://www.conceiveabilities.com/
Look how those people are happy. Everything has a price now. Even a baby.


I would like your opinion, people. Is it normal ?
 
So you have a problem with sperm banks too? Or is it that you must pay for it? Or that the sperm donor can be chosen and you are not injected with a random anybody's fluids? And is it really that surprising, that in a place called "Nordic Cryobank" everybody wants tall and blue eyed donors? You just dug yourself a bit deeper into your own fears and prejudices, congratulations.
 
Answer the questions bromen. The problem isn't the sperm it's the surrogacy.
Is it any different from factory worker renting his arm, or from a prostitute  ?
Does choosing a father/mother in a catalog and then renting someone else to bear the child is a form of human exploitation/trafficking  as well as an ethical and moral abomination or is it perfect fine and it's part of the market of services ?
Is this progress ?
If the next step is growing baby in vitro artificial womb in labs. Will it be unethical or a part of progress as well ?

2nd information. For gay couple, China and Russia are closing their international adoption for country where homosexuals can adopt. The only choice left for them is Brazil, South Africa or US. Let just say it will be quite hard to have a children on international now.
Will it make artificial procreation more common ?
Click to expand...
 
Surfing the internet was not normal 100 years ago. It was unheard of. Having someone **** your wife for a price until she gets pregnant, while not probably common was not a totally alien concept (see how babies have a price). "Normality" changes as people get accustomed to things as is not a valid indicator if something new is "good". This should be glaringly obvious.

As far as I am concerned your post contains zero points against same-sex marriage just a load of BS about ethics. As far as I am concerned I'd be hard pressed to find something unethical that doesn't hurt anyone. Who does the concept of a  child grown in artificial womb hurt?

Renting your body, much like prostitution is not in it self human trafficking. Much like assembling sports shoes is not child labor by default. Without hard data one can only assume and assumptions are worth **** if you ask me.
 
Aldric said:
Answer the questions bromen. The problem isn't the sperm it's the surrogacy.
Click to expand...
Okay.

Is it any different from factory worker renting his arm, or from a prostitute  ?
Click to expand...
Yes.
Does choosing a father/mother in a catalog and then renting someone else to bear the child is a form of human exploitation/trafficking  as well as an ethical and moral abomination or is it perfect fine and it's part of the market of services ?
Click to expand...
No.
Is this progress ?
Click to expand...
Yes.
If the next step is growing baby in vitro artificial womb in labs. Will it be unethical or a part of progress as well ?
Click to expand...
Only if it involves alien technology and the clones are used for war.
2nd information. For gay couple, China and Russia are closing their international adoption for country where homosexuals can adopt. The only choice left for them is Brazil, South Africa or US. Let just say it will be quite hard to have a children on international now.
Will it make artificial procreation more common ?
Click to expand...
No.

Better now? Now let's answer me one single question, preferably in a very short form: What does this mail order catalogue bull**** (that have been disproved as a baseless fear every the time you brought it up) has to do with gay marriage?
 
Aldric said:
Is it any different from factory worker renting his arm, or from a prostitute? Not really, no.
Does choosing a father/mother in a catalog and then renting someone else to bear the child is a form of human exploitation/trafficking  as well as an ethical and moral abomination or is it perfect fine and it's part of the market of services ? The latter
Is this progress ? There's no such thing as progress per se. It's always progress towards a particular ideal. So it depends on what your ideal is.
If the next step is growing baby in vitro artificial womb in labs. Will it be unethical or a part of progress as well ? Don't see any problems with artificial wombs myself.
I would like your opinion, people. Is it normal ? Pretty much, yeah. The entire concept of civilization is stretching and pushing our biological limits. Don't know why we should stop right here.
Click to expand...
 
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