Lordless playthru? Yes, please...

Okay folks, so we've been bantering a bit in the quick questions thread and something popped up about the "give troops to anybody by helping them fight" exploit. Suddenly, I realized that having Lords in your faction may not necessarily be required to win the game. You could juice up your sheriff patrols with top-tier troops, and now you have a wandering force of soldiers that never sleeps. What if you did this on a grand scale? Would it work?

Now, as noosers pointed out in the discussion thread, I am by no means the first person to juice up sheriff patrols in this manner. But how far has anybody taken it? Has it ever been the focus of an expanding player empire to do this, rather than to try to recruit Lords? If you think about it, you can have many more sheriff patrols with numbers in the hundreds of troops than you can have lords. 1000 denars, and poof! Instant Sheriff patrol. Sure, you can give troops to Lords, too... but they can end up spending time hanging around castles and feasts and whatnot and generally can be weak and unreliable at times. Sheriff patrols are always on the march, always working. You cannot command them to join a siege or follow you, but that is a trade-off I'm willing to chance.

With a playthru like this, all that matters is how many top-tier troops you can train and how fast and cheap you can do it. Just keep pumping out the juiced-up patrols, and after a while your territory becomes an indomitable dreadnaught. Any enemy lords that fall into your web will be devoured, and if you are there at the last stand, you can capture them and imprison them, taking them out of the picture until they can manage to escape from your Gulag. I can envision a time during a war when I have captured nearly every enemy lord of a faction in this manner, and then possibly using a minor force to starve out any number of castles and towns in order to capture them bloodlessly.

What do you guys think? Is it possible? Has anybody tried this yet?
-Loth

How will you counter for tax inefficiency and when enemy lords besiege your lands?

Sounds fun, but nigh impossible!

There's a hard cap to how high tax inefficiency gets (65% I believe but I could well be wrong)

I don't see why this plan couldn't work, with lots of preparation and a little luck. The trick will be keeping those patrols alive long enough to become killblobs, and also making sure they don't follow some bandit patrol out into the wilderness. Ethos might be a good choice to start from, as it has a ton of attached villages and some good chokepoints in the vicinity that might pay off in funneling extra patrols into combat after an engagement begins... In the end though, I predict tedium will be your most dangerous foe, as you're essentially pinning your hopes on herding cats. 

The Empire is dangerous for militia with the Snakes spawning all the time, maybe try the Fierds.

Hahaha "herding cats"... that's pretty much what it is, isn't it?

But my idea is to herd lions and tigers... LOTS of lions and tigers... and I agree that the prep-work is really the key. I just started a game with an INT/CHA char. Son of a ship captain, apprenticed to merchant, successful merchant, lure of gold. Gonna have to go with Dshar on this one, as they have the quickest path to train level 40 infantry. Right now I've got 18 mid-low tier Dshar and am taking on bandit spawns. My STR/AGL is 5/7 and it's probably gonna stay there forever. No skillpoints in fighting or riding (I start with 3, and that's plenty) -- everything will be focused on support skills, and I imagine that my companions will be the same. No need to make any of them fighters... they need to be trainers. The Dshar can take care of the dirty work while me and the companions stay back and grin.

The tedium I see will be gaining levels via quests for me and the companions. LOTS and LOTS of quests -- might as well have 100 relation with every Dshar village. That's going to be my goal in the early game phase, and I also want to try to befriend as many minor factions as possible, starting with the Singalian slavers.

Depending on how the game goes, I might join up with the Dshar at some point. If they are taking it in the rear like can sometimes happen, I might go it alone immediately. Too early to say right now. I definitely want to get a hold of Singal ASAP when mid-game hits, although Ethos is an excellent suggestion as well. I'll just have to see where the opportunities are when it comes time... I want at least a 10 in prisoner management before trying my luck -- that's going to net me almost a 100% chance of Lord capture, and that's going to matter.

-Loth

EDIT: MadVader, I'd love to try the Fierds, but getting their troops to level 40 takes a long time compared to the other factions, and Training speed is how I'm trying to get an edge with the Sheriffs. If my faction is friends with the Snakes, they won't be a problem, will they? I forget how that works with militia spawns.

They will likely attack the snakes still because they attack the Noldor, and yeah I don't see this working on a cheatless play through. Sure you won't be paying for those troops but what happens when that big enemy blob comes and owns them without you knowing. It's not like you will be able to see where all your patrols are without cheating, because they never stay in the area they are suppose to be. They eventually come back to it though, if they can survive. They also are idiots and will attack pretty much any enemy lord no matter the size of the army.

Also you will only have so many troops to put into that first patrol as sheriffs should take a while to build, and what are you going to do when your enemies come? I guess you could get a high right to rule so that not everyone declares on you. You could become a vassal but that'd be against the "rules" of the play through as you'd technically have lords working with you for awhile.

It'd be different if you could get enough knighthood troops for yourself that wouldn't be owned by a 2-3k blob. I play with edited troop lvls (amount of troops, stronger enemies) so I have no idea what you guys actually have to fight, my enemies are much larger and more stronger (high tiers).

On a final note, I think that the D'shar lands would be the best spot to do this as the bandit parties in that area stay in that area for the most part, so your militia patrols won't be running off to Mexico to chase that drug lord.

AnddyiRaynor said:

You could become a vassal but that'd be against the "rules" of the play through as you'd technically have lords working with you for awhile.

Click to expand...

You have a point. Becoming a vassal (even for just a short time) could "disqualify" me, couldn't it? Also, I'm not going to cheat, and I have full damage on me and troops. Think of this as a proof-of-concept sort of thing... I just want to see how having dozens of suped-up sheriffs concentrated in one area works. If it plays out like I think it will, I'm going to try to make the model expand into new areas and see how many castles I can starve out without fighting.

-Loth

PS The standard PoP troop sizes are not 2-3k blobs... LOL I think the sheriffs might be able to handle themselves. I'm not doing this with edited troop levels.

Once I got friendly with the Noldor they stopped attacking my kingdom's patrols, and vice versa. Not sure if the rules are the same for officially Evil minor factions like the Snakes though. I'd say officially joining a faction would be permitable within the spirit of what you're trying to do as long as you don't directly intervene in their fights or allow them to do the same for you, but rather just use their presence as cover. The politics of Pendor can't be escaped fully, after all, and will always be a factor. Besides, once the time comes to break free and begin the feline stampede, they'll be just as much your enemy as everyone else.

Hmmm... I think I'll make a "hard save" before transitioning to mid-game so I have something to fall back to if this goes too far south. As much as I love agreeing with Levon about everything, I think Anddy's got a point about vassalage... the "purist" no-Lords playthru pretty much demands that I go it alone always. If it turns out to be suicidal, I can always fall back to the hard save and try it as a vassal to at least see if it's a do-able game mechanic with the sheriffs.

Right now, I'm level 5. STR/AGL is still 5/7 as promised LOL I am so weak, but it's necessary to get in the fight at this extremely early stage to draw crossbow fire away from my troops. I blinked and suddenly almost half of my crew is Bladesmen -- it's almost unfair how fast the Dshar infantry level-up, as I have been fighting nothing but bandits, outlaws, and an occasional rogue squire when I can manage it. I've been KO'd 3 times so far... lost a couple of troops here and there, but still going strong. Band numbers 18 Dshar troops including me and Leslie, who I just picked up in Laria. My cash is around 15k denars, with no other holdings yet, but I will be getting all dyeworks as I go.

-Loth

lothario said:

AnddyiRaynor said:

You could become a vassal but that'd be against the "rules" of the play through as you'd technically have lords working with you for awhile.

Click to expand...

You have a point. Becoming a vassal (even for just a short time) could "disqualify" me, couldn't it? Also, I'm not going to cheat, and I have full damage on me and troops. Think of this as a proof-of-concept sort of thing... I just want to see how having dozens of suped-up sheriffs concentrated in one area works. If it plays out like I think it will, I'm going to try to make the model expand into new areas and see how many castles I can starve out without fighting.

-Loth

PS The standard PoP troop sizes are not 2-3k blobs... LOL I think the sheriffs might be able to handle themselves. I'm not doing this with edited troop levels.

Click to expand...

I meant when the lords fight together with their marshals

AnddyiRaynor said:

I meant when the lords fight together with their marshals

Click to expand...

Haha, okay... I misunderstood. But when you have ten or so sheriffs with 100+ level 40 troops each, they are going to generate a lot of fear, even against a marshalled enemy force. I think that it might come to pass that a lot of sieges against me are prevented before they ever start. We'll just have to see if this is the case.

-Loth

lothario said:

AnddyiRaynor said:

I meant when the lords fight together with their marshals

Click to expand...

Haha, okay... I misunderstood. But when you have ten or so sheriffs with 100+ level 40 troops each, they are going to generate a lot of fear, even against a marshalled enemy force. I think that it might come to pass that a lot of sieges against me are prevented before they ever start. We'll just have to see if this is the case.

-Loth

Click to expand...

The lords should be able to out run them and then lure them into a blob. Which is lucky for them It may work, it's definitely a neat thing to use, though I probably wouldn't go lordless I'd just recruit less lords. gl .

I believe in you, Lothario.

LevonVeldspar said:

I believe in you, Lothario.

Click to expand...

LMAO thanks, pal... mark my words, I'm going to be posting a screenshot of 50 lords held in my prison. Don't ask me WHEN... but it's gonna happen, dammit! 

-Loth

Interesting turn of events... Day 48

During my little experiment, I've stumbled upon one of those rare games wherein Fiersdvain is inexplicably weak and Ravenstern is unusually aggressive. Interestingly, the Empire is also sitting back and letting the Dshar run rampant all over them. Sarleon, against all odds, has already taken territory in the Empire and the Dshar are slowly eating away at them as well... three castles for them. The Fierds have yielded two castles to Ravenstern.

If the Dshar continue this unabated rampage and solidify their hold on their new territory, I might have quite the ball-buster trying to wrestle Singal away from them. I can only hope that the Empire rebounds and invades the Khanlands so that they are weakened enough to let me have a good chance at them two hundred or so days from now (I'm estimating). The way things look right now, I might have to re-think my starting area... Ethos is looking better and better by the minute.

I'm level 9 now, still 5/7 and getting KO'd frequently. I've got Leslie, Adonja, Julia, and Kaverra... all skillpoints from Levelups are going into INT, as previously discussed. No quests yet... I'm still trying to get my core Dshar crew all up to level 40. Most of them are there already, with a couple of stragglers stubbornly remaining at spearman and vet spearman. Total troop count = 27

-Loth

Become a merc to their enemies and make them suffer , raid caravans and kill villagers.  Make them poor muahahahhaha. Kill straggler lords, and keep those lords prisoner for awhile. They will start to lose land then.

Whoa, Anddy, it's WAYYY too early for that kind of stuff! If the Empire doesn't rebound, I have a plan:

Go on a mass rumor spree all over Dshar territories, over and over and over, in order to spawn as many minor faction armies as possible in the area. I can also spawn snake armies like this and drag them over to Dshar lands... which also serves a dual purpose: I can join in with Snake cult fights and raise my rep with them. Same with the Heretic armies that spawn. After the dust settles, I can always visit a castle and repair my relationship with whatever faction I pissed off in the process. Bonus: it's cheap to do this. 

-Loth

Forget the D´Shar lands. It´s bustling with bandits.

For your plans either stay in the Windholm-Javiksholm triangle, around Sarleon or Ethos-Janos-Rela-Keep. What you want for your milita´s is peaceful areas with little distraction but hostile lords. Otherwise they´ll chase 5 bandits over half the map and end up someplace nasty.

Along with their attached prisoners. Militas can´t get rid of them. They just accumulate till they´re destroyed. It was nice if you could purchase prisoners off them or tell them to visit a local prison to transfer them into more adept hands.

How should joining a kingdom as vassal or becoming a mercenary disqualify your challenge? You´re supposed to found your own kingdom without any helpful lords under your reign - not to conquer Pendor. The sole survivor quest starts the second you declare yourself independent. Whatever else you do before in order to prepare you is alright - alsong as you´re not altering the games or abusing loopholes.

I hear ya about the Dshar bandits, noosers... I thought about that. Here's my reasoning:

1. Those bandits are really quick on the map
2. My juiced sheriffs will not be fast, as they will be 100+ in size... hopefully 200+ when I really get going
3. Slow sheriffs are good, because they will tend to stay in home territory, being unable to give much of a chase before giving up and going back

So I was guessing that the Dshar bandit spawns might actually help keep my guys concentrated and not dispersed all about the place. I guess I'll find out soon enough if this works or not, but as far as I can tell the theory is sound.

The prisoner buildup is a very valid point, and a weakness in this game mechanic. When an overprisonered sheriff finally bites it, all those prisoners suddenly become enemies again. I have no counter to this problem other than sheer numerical superiority in the field. I'm talking 5-10000+ active patrolling troops who are all 40th level -- if I can achieve this, then a couple of hundred freed prisoners might not matter that much. We'll see.

-Loth

PS update on progress:

Day 80, level 11, total troop count = 25, Sir Alistair, Alyssa, Kaverra, Leslie, Ansen, Adonja, Julia, everybody else is Bladesman. Still 5/7 no fighting skills. Just hit Training 10 with my main char, so no more INT points on level-up, time to grind out CHA for prisoner management. I'll have PM skill at 7 by the time I hit 20th level. Depending on the situation with the faction wars, I may not wait until PM 10 to make my move... I might go for it at PM 8 or 9 if I have all Dshar villages at relation 100 by then. Waiting until I find Sir Rayne before village quest-grinding... he's the last companion I plan on getting. Cash = 7k, All companions using winged maces or maces for prisoner capture and slavery. Doing well.

As an aside, the best armor I can equip with a STR of 5 is Lady's Leather Armor. LOL good thing I'm playing a female, huh?

1 and 2 are exactly the reasons why you should avoid that area because your reasoning to 3 is totally wrong. It will be exactly the other way round. Your slow sheriff parties will lumber along following that damned bandit party and be lured off. Though - the reduced spawn rate of the sheriff building may help in that matter more than I assume.

But I am biased as I am full of prejudices against that area. It´s poor, bandit infested, extensive and most of all, D´Shar soil.

Your greatest problem will be that you can´t order patrols around. So the larger they bloat up, the slower they become means after a certain treshold size they will become useless.

Another nuisance will be the fact you´ll have to actually attack foreign milita parties in order to gain space for spawning your own. This will become interesting. Though I reckon you could do something far more useful with your spare time, like, going out and having a walk.