Ivan the Awesome
Knight
Whatsup with the corpses on the siege tower?? Did they actually do that??
SCRIPTORIUM AMANUENSIS - 1257 AD Artworks
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Knight
LudicrusSMaximusS
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Baltic Village reminds me of BraveHeart.
thick1988 said:I think you have pasted the wrong image code friend.
It is a random image, just to show what I meant with "underlining"
Ivan: one can never be sure when he base the research on contemporary sources, often they are just propaganda, yet it seems that Frederick II, during the siege of Brescia, tied several brescian prisoners on the siege towers to avoid the trebuchet/mangonel/whatever fire from the walls. According to the chronicle - I'm honestly not sure exactly which chronicle it is, I've found this episode in a contemporary study - the prisoners tied on the towers shouted at the defenders not to care about them but to destroy the towers...and so they did!
@ F.F.C._fritz, could you tell me which is the Portuguese XIIIth century illustrated musical poem that you used for the soldier of the Moorish castle ?
About the Andalusian troops, you wrote:
"In the drawing, a mounted scout, armed with crossbow, reports to Ibn Hud. Such light cavalry and infantry units were the bulk of the andalusian armies, altough heavy infantry and cavalry were also present, as shown in 1282's manuscript Las Cantigas de Santa Maria. A strong western influence was present, even if, personally, I'm not sure if it just a simplified vision from a christian amanuens. As you may guess, the illustrations of Las Cantigas de Santa Maria are the main source for the drawing, in clothing as well as in heraldry."
Actually, contemporary Muslim textual sources confirm that XIIIth century Andalusian warriors were heavily influenced, in terms of armours, by their Christian foes (although this latters might have been influenced by Muslims in first, during the X-XIIth centuries, therefore it is often hard to determinate the origin of certain features, such as helmets' decorative gilded crests/plaques or tasseled shields).
Otherwise, I hope some drawings of French castles will come, as well as illustrations of Castillan, North African and Aragonese troops
Btw if you need informations about Castillan XIIIth century kings outfits, I can help you.
About the Andalusian troops, you wrote:
"In the drawing, a mounted scout, armed with crossbow, reports to Ibn Hud. Such light cavalry and infantry units were the bulk of the andalusian armies, altough heavy infantry and cavalry were also present, as shown in 1282's manuscript Las Cantigas de Santa Maria. A strong western influence was present, even if, personally, I'm not sure if it just a simplified vision from a christian amanuens. As you may guess, the illustrations of Las Cantigas de Santa Maria are the main source for the drawing, in clothing as well as in heraldry."
Actually, contemporary Muslim textual sources confirm that XIIIth century Andalusian warriors were heavily influenced, in terms of armours, by their Christian foes (although this latters might have been influenced by Muslims in first, during the X-XIIth centuries, therefore it is often hard to determinate the origin of certain features, such as helmets' decorative gilded crests/plaques or tasseled shields).
Otherwise, I hope some drawings of French castles will come, as well as illustrations of Castillan, North African and Aragonese troops
Btw if you need informations about Castillan XIIIth century kings outfits, I can help you.
First of all thank you for your comment! Then
For the moorish soldier, I based myself on Las Cantigas de Santa Maria for the heart-shaped shield, while the gambeson is taken from an illustration of Angus McBride on "The Moors" (Osprey). Sadly I couldn't find his source for that cape of clothing. The helmet with turban, you see, was born from a bit of laziness.
I reckon that maybe I was wrong talking about a portoguese poem for the Cantigas, I must have been confused by the fact that Las Cantigas where written in Galician Portuguese (that's wikipedia, so I know it may be wrong).
I've read the same yet still I tend not to trust too much medieval sources. Las Cantigas are well detailed, but sometimes they gave me the impression of an artist drawing muslims just as he drew christians, adding the muslims side some turbans and light cavalry here and there and little else to give a little different feeling. I know it was not like total war with no influence and no communication between christians and muslims - in fact, quite the opposite - but still some doubts remains.
North African troops will come for sure, as the Almohads and the Hafsids have an own troop tree, even if I'm still trying to think in what they did differ from the Granadians, since - as far as I've understood it - the Kingdom of Granada came after the Almohadian breakdown in Iberia not much time before 1257 or could their peculiarity be. If you have suggestions about them - equipment, battles (1230-1265), events, medieval sources - they are welcome!
I don't know about French castles, since the catholic castle scene is done. At first I had thought to the mighty Angers castle - that must have been HUGE, but then I decided for a classic Norman castle, due to the fact that the Normans and their architecture were spread across a lot of Europe - English Isles, Northern France, Italy and maybe more - and the most classic (squared) and less modified I found (without knowing exactly where to search, I admit) was Dover, which was modified but not in a way it was too hard to recreate.
Last but not least, I'm quite sorry I still have no drawings with Castillans, as I know a lot of iberians follow the mod! At first, for the troop encounters, I wanted when possible to recreate various moments of battles and the Latin troops tree (both Iberian christians and Italians) were gone with Montaperti. So now I'm thinking to a "desert bandit encounter" including castillans or christian iberian against light muslim cavalry, I just have to think to a suitable event. I know Iberia is not a desert, but I guess Andalusia does have "desert like" regions or, at least, very dry areas - but maybe is just a wrong convinction based on Sergio Leone and his "spaghetti western". Of course any help with archaeology and primary sources are welcomed.
By the way, I know there are a lot of history buffs from the Balkans too playing this game, so I'd like to ask you if you could help me with information and, most wanted, archaeological and visual medieval sources for the Serbs' troop tree. If possible, name me an event (a battle, maybe) between 1230-65. The only sources I could find of medieval Serbs is a very generic Osprey book on Hungary and nearby regions. I know about an obvious strong byzantine influence, but if you know more, share!
Al_Mansur said:@ F.F.C._fritz, could you tell me which is the Portuguese XIIIth century illustrated musical poem that you used for the soldier of the Moorish castle ?
For the moorish soldier, I based myself on Las Cantigas de Santa Maria for the heart-shaped shield, while the gambeson is taken from an illustration of Angus McBride on "The Moors" (Osprey). Sadly I couldn't find his source for that cape of clothing. The helmet with turban, you see, was born from a bit of laziness.
I reckon that maybe I was wrong talking about a portoguese poem for the Cantigas, I must have been confused by the fact that Las Cantigas where written in Galician Portuguese (that's wikipedia, so I know it may be wrong
). Al_Mansur said:
I've read the same yet still I tend not to trust too much medieval sources. Las Cantigas are well detailed, but sometimes they gave me the impression of an artist drawing muslims just as he drew christians, adding the muslims side some turbans and light cavalry here and there and little else to give a little different feeling. I know it was not like total war with no influence and no communication between christians and muslims - in fact, quite the opposite - but still some doubts remains.
Al_Mansur said:Otherwise, I hope some drawings of French castles will come, as well as illustrations of Castillan, North African and Aragonese troops
Btw if you need informations about Castillan XIIIth century kings outfits, I can help you.
North African troops will come for sure, as the Almohads and the Hafsids have an own troop tree, even if I'm still trying to think in what they did differ from the Granadians, since - as far as I've understood it - the Kingdom of Granada came after the Almohadian breakdown in Iberia not much time before 1257 or could their peculiarity be. If you have suggestions about them - equipment, battles (1230-1265), events, medieval sources - they are welcome!
I don't know about French castles, since the catholic castle scene is done. At first I had thought to the mighty Angers castle - that must have been HUGE, but then I decided for a classic Norman castle, due to the fact that the Normans and their architecture were spread across a lot of Europe - English Isles, Northern France, Italy and maybe more - and the most classic (squared) and less modified I found (without knowing exactly where to search, I admit) was Dover, which was modified but not in a way it was too hard to recreate.
Last but not least, I'm quite sorry I still have no drawings with Castillans, as I know a lot of iberians follow the mod! At first, for the troop encounters, I wanted when possible to recreate various moments of battles and the Latin troops tree (both Iberian christians and Italians) were gone with Montaperti. So now I'm thinking to a "desert bandit encounter" including castillans or christian iberian against light muslim cavalry, I just have to think to a suitable event. I know Iberia is not a desert, but I guess Andalusia does have "desert like" regions or, at least, very dry areas - but maybe is just a wrong convinction based on Sergio Leone and his "spaghetti western". Of course any help with archaeology and primary sources are welcomed.
By the way, I know there are a lot of history buffs from the Balkans too playing this game, so I'd like to ask you if you could help me with information and, most wanted, archaeological and visual medieval sources for the Serbs' troop tree. If possible, name me an event (a battle, maybe) between 1230-65. The only sources I could find of medieval Serbs is a very generic Osprey book on Hungary and nearby regions. I know about an obvious strong byzantine influence, but if you know more, share!
I reckon that maybe I was wrong talking about a portoguese poem for the Cantigas, I must have been confused by the fact that Las Cantigas where written in Galician Portuguese (that's wikipedia, so I know it may be wrong
Ahah, that's what I thought
. Actually Las Cantigas De Santa Maria are a Castillan work promoted by the king Alfonse X the Wise himsel. Galician-Portuguese was the 'artistic' tongue of Christian Iberian courts of that time, that's why the Cantigas are written in this language.I've read the same yet still I tend not to trust too much medieval sources. Las Cantigas are well detailed, but sometimes they gave me the impression of an artist drawing muslims just as he drew christians, adding the muslims side some turbans and light cavalry here and there and little else to give a little different feeling. I know it was not like total war with no influence and no communication between christians and muslims - in fact, quite the opposite - but still some doubts remains.
All the sources, from textual ones to archeological evidences, show that Andalusian military gear was quite heavy and close to what we could see in the rest of Western Europe. One of the oldest Andalusian human representations, dating back to the 10th century, consists in a warrior wearing a full hauberk (something very rare in the rest of Western Europe of that time), helmet with broad nasal guard (and perhaps a decorative front plaque) and probably holding a kite shield. In some Spanish 11th and 12th century illustrations, Moors are heavier than Christian. Therefore, some features usually seen as purely European might first come from Muslim Iberians (these latters probably influenced by Persians or Byzantines).
Concerning the particularly heavy equipment style of Las Cantigas, it is corroborated by the closeness of contemporary pictorial sources (late XIIIth century Christian Pinturas murales de la conquista de Mallorca, Gran conquesta de Ultramar and wall paintings of castle Alcanyis and also XIVth century Nasrid wall paintings found in the Alhambra, depicting Granadan warriors often close to the Moors of Las Cantigas). Besides, only Andalusians wear heavy armors in the illuminations of Las Cantigas, North Africans never wear European like stuffs. It must depict a certain reality. This deep 'europeanisation' of XIIIth century Nasrid armies is also found in their castles, where the presence of a keep became systematic, whereas it was often absent before.
I haven't played to the mod for a long time, but weren't there Marinids instead of Almohads ?
Otherwise, North Africans differed a lot from Granadans, as show us the illuminations of Las Cantigas, one more time corroborated by textual sources, but also by ethnography. They were far lighter. Medieval texts quoted by Osprey tell us that by XIIIth century, only Marininid nobles wear mail armors. Therefore North African warriors probably looked like that:
http://warfare.totalh.net/Cantiga/Cantigas_de_Santa_Maria-181.htm (even the traditionnal Berber patterns are represented, on the horses' clothes).
However, a particularly heavy helmet - a conical helmet with a neck protection looking like sort of late medieval Turkish helmets - existed in XIIIth century Morocco. It is mentionned in late XIIIth century texts, and almost certainly depicted in this Moroccan manuscript of 1224:
http://warfare.uphero.com/alSufi/Vatican_Library-Ross.1033-Cepheus.htm
Concerning battles and events, I think that the size of Fez in 1248 and the one of Marrakech in 1269, both by the Marinids over the remaining Almohads, are interesting.
Actually, this style of huge square keep protected by 4 towers is rather Anglo-norman than Norman, although a few like that exist in Northern France too (especially the one of Chambois, Normandy). Have you examples of keeps like that in Italy ? It interest me a lot. Otherwise, a revolution of military architecture took place in early XIIIth century France, under the reign of Philippe Auguste. As a result appeared the typical French castles, with their high rooded towers and keeps with hoardings, like that:
Last but not least, I'm quite sorry I still have no drawings with Castillans, as I know a lot of iberians follow the mod! At first, for the troop encounters, I wanted when possible to recreate various moments of battles and the Latin troops tree (both Iberian christians and Italians) were gone with Montaperti. So now I'm thinking to a "desert bandit encounter" including castillans or christian iberian against light muslim cavalry, I just have to think to a suitable event. I know Iberia is not a desert, but I guess Andalusia does have "desert like" regions or, at least, very dry areas - but maybe is just a wrong convinction based on Sergio Leone and his "spaghetti western". Of course any help with archaeology and primary sources are welcomed.
The Andalusian deserts of Tabernas and Nijar-Cabo de Gata are the most known thanks to Sergio Leone, but actually deserts can be found in all Iberia. One of the two most impressive ones are in Aragon: the desert of Las Bardenas:
. So I think it's ok By the way, I know there are a lot of history buffs from the Balkans too playing this game, so I'd like to ask you if you could help me with information and, most wanted, archaeological and visual medieval sources for the Serbs' troop tree. If possible, name me an event (a battle, maybe) between 1230-65. The only sources I could find of medieval Serbs is a very generic Osprey book on Hungary and nearby regions. I know about an obvious strong byzantine influence, but if you know more, share!
I second that, because I need sources of XIIIth century Serbs too, for my own mod
Al_Mansur said:
Yeah, Marinids, my mistake
So, according to Las Cantigas, tunic and robes for north africans, with turbans, of course, and some armor for the lords with the pointy helmet you posted instead of the typical castillan/andalusian shown in Las Cantigas. Could you suggest me a link about the size of Fez? I can't find the 1248 size in english.
Al_Mansur said:Actually, this style of huge square keep protected by 4 towers is rather Anglo-norman than Norman, although a few like that exist in Northern France too (especially the one of Chambois, Normandy). Have you examples of keeps like that in Italy ? It interest me a lot. Otherwise, a revolution of military architecture took place in early XIIIth century France, under the reign of Philippe Auguste. As a result appeared the typical French castles, with their high rooded towers and keeps with hoardings, like that:
This architecture is emblematic, not only of medieval France, but of all medieval Europe, as it did spread all over the continent.
I'll be honest with you, I did heard about innovations by Phillip August but really didn't know much about them - I'm not that much into architecture.
I was afraid to draw something possibly anachronistic (too much modern for the XIII c.), so I took Dover as a simple choice - famous castle built in a famous style SURELY before the mod timeframe
. You're right about squared castles with 4 towers being an Anglo-Norman characteristic. I'm not sure about 4 towers in Italy, but sure there are a lot of squared keeps. Here's an interesting index if you'd like to see Norman castles in the south. You'll surely see how many of them must have been modified as the time passed by, but still it may be of some interest.http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Norman_castles_in_Italy
Since you wanted it for towered and squared, even if I don't think is Norman, here for you this central Italy badassary Rocca Calascio, apparently built from the XI century onwards - it must be said it was never tested in battle. You may have seen it in movies such as "The Name of Rose" and "Ladyhawke" or, at least, so they say.
Al_Mansur said:The Andalusian deserts of Tabernas and Nijar-Cabo de Gata are the most known thanks to Sergio Leone, but actually deserts can be found in all Iberia. One of the two most impressive ones are in Aragon: the desert of Las Bardenas:
and the desert of Los Monegros:
And very dry places are as frequent as verdant places in Netherlands
Right, glad I had the correct stereotype this time
In the Mamluke drawing, which is set near Al Mansurah, I added the grass AFTER the drawing was substantially finished, when I discovered by Google Maps an awkward truth: not the whole of Egypt (and particularly not Al Mansurah) is sandy desert.
Yea tunics with snub sleeves as shown by Las Cantigas, with turbans, adargas (heart shaped shields), swords with curved quillons and typical Moorish spears. A standard flag of the basic Moorish-Iberian shape would be good, and for the king, I suggest indeed this pointy helmet, over a mail coif or white head cloth, while his body armor would consist in a hauberk fully covered by a decorated long-sleeved tunic with arabic inscriptions on the arms, as shown in Las Cantigas.
Unfortunately I didn't find any pages about this event. It is just mentionned in global articles dealing with Marinides and Almohads.
I'll be honest with you, I did heard about innovations by Phillip August but really didn't know much about them - I'm not that much into architecture.
I was afraid to draw something possibly anachronistic (too much modern for the XIII c.), so I took Dover as a simple choice - famous castle built in a famous style SURELY before the mod timeframe
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Norman_castles_in_Italy
Since you wanted it for towered and squared, even if I don't think is Norman, here for you this central Italy badassary Rocca Calascio, apparently built from the XI century onwards - it must be said it was never tested in battle. You may have seen it in movies such as "The Name of Rose" and "Ladyhawke" or, at least, so they say.
(click to show/hide)
Actually what is typically Anglo-norman is the square keep with 4 tourelles at its own corners, not a simple square keep surrounded by a defensive wall with round towers
. This latter feature is rather connected with French XIIIth century architecture btw. Simple square keeps are found in all Europe.Thanks for the links, btw I didn't know this central Italian castle, although I have seen "The Name of Rose", it looks damn awesome !
Back to work, here's what I got for the Sea Raiders or Piratae. In Native they are clearly vikings. Well armoured and wielding dangerous two handed axes, the Piratae of 1257 AD still have that scandinavian feeling. And since I like to draw the player's character as well in the bandit screen - and I know not everybody play as western knights...
http://fritzvicari.deviantart.com/art/Thus-they-called-him-Nevsky-Neva-River-1240-AD-342511987
Once again, I repeat my cry for help: Balkaners history buff, how about some information about Serbian XIIIth century military equipment and battles?
http://fritzvicari.deviantart.com/art/Thus-they-called-him-Nevsky-Neva-River-1240-AD-342511987
Once again, I repeat my cry for help: Balkaners history buff, how about some information about Serbian XIIIth century military equipment and battles?
Here we go with a pair of drawing with a slight eastern european flavour: Tundra Bandits (Sicarii Boreali) and Taiga Bandits (Sicarii Orientalis). I didn't even remember about Tundra bandits in Native, but still...
For the Boreali, which I encountered playing as a Teutonic Knight, I couldn't but think to Baltic units, according to their equipment. So I went for the Prussians during their great uprising.
http://fritzvicari.deviantart.com/art/The-Great-Uprising-Grows-Prokarwis-1261-AD-342636318
For the Orientali, their Steppe horses reminded me of their Mongol origin, before Tomas edited them according to the regions in which you meet them. Since is a pretty famous page of history, I've chosen an episode from the battle of Legnica in 1241.
http://fritzvicari.deviantart.com/art/The-Fall-of-the-Silesian-Eagle-Legnica-1241-AD-343235635
For the Boreali, which I encountered playing as a Teutonic Knight, I couldn't but think to Baltic units, according to their equipment. So I went for the Prussians during their great uprising.
http://fritzvicari.deviantart.com/art/The-Great-Uprising-Grows-Prokarwis-1261-AD-342636318
For the Orientali, their Steppe horses reminded me of their Mongol origin, before Tomas edited them according to the regions in which you meet them. Since is a pretty famous page of history, I've chosen an episode from the battle of Legnica in 1241.
http://fritzvicari.deviantart.com/art/The-Fall-of-the-Silesian-Eagle-Legnica-1241-AD-343235635
Wow, great screen That looks almost identical to the drawing, even the prussian equipment! How did you dress them with such precision?
That looks almost identical to the drawing, even the prussian equipment! How did you dress them with such precision? Cuthalion
Sergeant at Arms
Nice scenery, but it always hurts when I see swords thrust into the earth or snow. No sane soldier would damage his weapons like that. If I could raise a tax for every image with knights praying with their swords stuck into the earth, I'd be a rich man now.F.F.C._fritz said:
