Don Zekalone
Veteran
Mrapple said:
It don't require now, so I don't think so. Don't see why it need.
Comments: 3.0 Released
- Thread starter phlpp
- Start date
Users who are viewing this thread
Veteran
It don't require now, so I don't think so. Don't see why it need.
the latest one wouldn't really add much to this mod, anyway.
Don Zekalone
Veteran
What WSE actually do?
It adds new script functions for modders to use. It's mostly required for the latest version of PBOD, though a lot of other mods and submods require it too.
Don Zekalone
Veteran
I played some mods with it, but there were some on that didn't worked for me even when its needed to play it.
I like the game as it is now, we don't need that!
I like the game as it is now, we don't need that!
Coraline
Sergeant
Or better yet some ability to pierce armor instead of doing more damage. An ability to ignore armor and do nearly max damage regardless of armor maybe. This means higher level enemies with a lot of HP will still withstand at least more than one round, and lower level enemies will only fall to more powerful muskets with 1 blow. Being the most powerful musket I've seen was a Masterwork Dutch and it had like 65 or 66 damage, I'm pretty sure a lot of high level enemies have more HP than that. Musket NPCs can always be made weaker at melee combat to counter such power, and the increased effectiveness would make using a musket by the "Player" more appealing. Definitely being you can not use them on horse back.Crlsniper said:
One can dream, I know With Fire and Sword had "Pierce" Description on a number of weapons, though I never followed up on what that exactly meant.
1 Hit death exist already. I do it all the time, Cavalry can do it all the time, two hand sword users can do it all the time. Once you get your skill up enough it isn't hard to do if you hit the head. I was 1 hitting with the Bow when I imported my Warband character into the Mod to see how that worked out, bow on horse, aim for the head, ouch to enemy. It's quite easy when you have like 300+ Archery and +6 to Draw Strength, with the best bow/arrows you can find. This is when Bows for the Player character become insanely idiotically powerful/effective.. as I said, I can take out a dozen+ people per battle with a bow, why I don't' kill more is mostly because of misses, or 2 hit kills using the bow.Don Zekalone said:
A Musket... They can NEVER be that awesome, because of their inaccuracy intentional head shots are also very hard.. because of their reload rate... Damage output is very limited, and only limited to lucky hits as well. You're relying on chance vs skill when using a musket, they should be much stronger to counter that. Otherwise Bows will forever be better.
The point of it is it doesn't matter whether Samurai were experts with Bows and not Guns, if a player wants to train on using a musket they should be able to use it to excellence similar to a bow... at least when they're on foot.. having some ability to make using a Gun an acceptable option vs a bow. As it is on any Mount & Blade game, bows are just better... lol
Well that is my 2 cents anyways.
Warband has pierce damage too, but the engine is severely limited as to what you can do with armour values and damage. I haven't played the beta (don't have the time, and anyway I'd like to start an nice, crisp fresh game with the finished product), but I'm assuming guns have pierce damage, as in 2.x. Problem comes with how the game handles damage, which assumes that any missiles are going to be arrows and therefore not do much damage to armour. So it's hard to make them equally effective against all enemies.
Don Zekalone
Veteran
Coraline said:
I know it is posible 1 hit death, I also do it uti with Naginata or 2H sword, but it is also posible in real life with kunai for example, one hit in head, hes dead. You can't make that realstici game, If it was like in real life, it wouldn't be interesting.
In Native mod you also can kill dozen of enemies with bow and horse. In every mod I played is like that, expect Brytanweld. That was realistic, their arrows could literaly broke armor and stuck in man's hearth, no mather how strong was enemy.
Well it wasn't us who made mod so we can only suggest, Phlpp is the one who chosing how it's gonna be, since he wanted to be realstici to that time which I more prefer, it is how it is.
EggsBenedictArnold
Recruit
Don Zekalone said:I played some mods with it, but there were some on that didn't worked for me even when its needed to play it.
I like the game as it is now, we don't need that!
Really? Are you sure you are starting it correctly?
Most script extenders are extremely easy to use and install, and most problems arise from people not fully understanding the instructions or assuming it's going to be a headache. You have to START M&B with it. As in, don't use the regular launching method, you have to go to your modules, where it's folder is supposed to be, open the folder, and launch with the WSE loader.
If you're doing that, then the only reason it's not working is either it's an outdated version or it's a problem with the mod.
Don Zekalone
Veteran
Probably I got something wrong but like I said don't care, don't even fully understadn what it does.
Gekokujo works fine without it, don't see the reasons to use it.
Gekokujo works fine without it, don't see the reasons to use it.
Crlsniper
Recruit
Don Zekalone said:
I'm thinking we need some testing done between bows and guns. Look at it this way if the bow is only better for players than only the players loss out on a cool weapon, but if the same thing is true for units then any clan who prefer gunners are possibly at a disadvantage over ones who use bows. I understand that most units have weaknesses against each other and the same would be true to gunners, but if they just can't compete or have an advantage with any units as bowmen would then maybe this needs to be looked at and tested to see how bad the kill ratio between guns and bows and if guns in army vs bows effect the out come in battles for either side. If we can determine this maybe we can put this debate to rest or find a solution to any major issue we find. If that makes sense, I'm not to great at explaining. I guess if any beta tester will be willing to just watch how often lands and clan lose with gunners compaired to bows and let us know what you find.
Sengoku Sushi
Regular
I tested with bows and guns back on like page 150 or 160 something
EggsBenedictArnold
Recruit
Don Zekalone said:Probably I got something wrong but like I said don't care, don't even fully understadn what it does.
Gekokujo works fine without it, don't see the reasons to use it.
True. But for your information, all Script Extenders do basically the same thing: Allow for more functionality and diversity for modders in scripting. It basically allows them to create scripts that are more complex and have more functions than would normally be possible within the scope of modding the regular game. However, this means that a player in these cases must use the Script Extender to run their game, so that the game can actually run the advanced scripts. But yeah, I rarely see it needed for this game.
It's not Skyrim. Pretty much HAVE to use that Extender if you want anything that adds any real value or content.
Talinoth
Knight
I know bows > guns for the player character in the mid-late game, but seriously... you need to consider a couple of things.
As far as I can see, guns have less projectile drop than bows, which makes them more accurate at extreme ranges - aka, the ranges players like to snipe at.
Ever tried hitting an enemy marksman in the central keep of the enemy castle from your spawn point in a siege? It's possible, but it's almost impossible to do with a bow.
They don't require any skill points (POWER DRAW) to use well. Unlike bows, guns don't require massive investments in Strength and Power Draw to use to their best potential.
They're perfect for INT based player characters and companions - I might make my next character INT based.
Finally, guns are far superior to bows when being used by your army EXCEPT in the case of Master Archer/Hatamoto Archer units.
If I had the choice between recruiting a bow Ashigaru and a gun Ashigaru, I would recruit the gun Ashigaru every time.
This is because
- The gunners will do more damage, piercing enemy armour. I assure you, gunner ashigaru can do serious damage to enemy samurai units - bow ashigaru won't even scratch them half the time.
- Have superior range to the archers - shredding the enemy before they can fire back
- They also at least feel more ammo-efficient - scoring more kills before they run out of bullets.
"But but but enemy archers are stopping my gunners from reloading because they fire faster!"
Stop right there, criminal scum! If you're letting enemy archers get close enough to your gunners without having already perforated them with bullets or run them through with a cavalry charge you're doing something wrong anyway.
---
Anyway, ranged weapons in general are a bit strong, but I like it this way anyway.
Bows are really really strong - don't get me wrong there. But it does require an investment of quite a few skill points to get to that strength.
This is about right anyway. Bows SHOULD be stronger than guns (when used by skilled warriors) at this point in history anyway.
As far as I can see, guns have less projectile drop than bows, which makes them more accurate at extreme ranges - aka, the ranges players like to snipe at.
Ever tried hitting an enemy marksman in the central keep of the enemy castle from your spawn point in a siege? It's possible, but it's almost impossible to do with a bow.
They don't require any skill points (POWER DRAW) to use well. Unlike bows, guns don't require massive investments in Strength and Power Draw to use to their best potential.
They're perfect for INT based player characters and companions - I might make my next character INT based.
Finally, guns are far superior to bows when being used by your army EXCEPT in the case of Master Archer/Hatamoto Archer units.
If I had the choice between recruiting a bow Ashigaru and a gun Ashigaru, I would recruit the gun Ashigaru every time.
This is because
- The gunners will do more damage, piercing enemy armour. I assure you, gunner ashigaru can do serious damage to enemy samurai units - bow ashigaru won't even scratch them half the time.
- Have superior range to the archers - shredding the enemy before they can fire back
- They also at least feel more ammo-efficient - scoring more kills before they run out of bullets.
"But but but enemy archers are stopping my gunners from reloading because they fire faster!"
Stop right there, criminal scum! If you're letting enemy archers get close enough to your gunners without having already perforated them with bullets or run them through with a cavalry charge you're doing something wrong anyway.
---
Anyway, ranged weapons in general are a bit strong, but I like it this way anyway.
Bows are really really strong - don't get me wrong there. But it does require an investment of quite a few skill points to get to that strength.
This is about right anyway. Bows SHOULD be stronger than guns (when used by skilled warriors) at this point in history anyway.
Sengoku Sushi
Regular
Harkening back to my experiments tested in Gekokujo...
I tested to see what was better Yumi's or Teppo's So I hired 50 Hatamoto Archers and 50 Hatamoto Gunners. I ran the test 10 times for each 50 each test was under different circumstances and scenarios. Here was my results:
8/10 Times The Gunners were the first to get shots off than yumi's. (Range) (Only At first)
6/10 Times The Gunners were the first to get kills than the yumi's. (Kill Power)
9/10 The Yumi's off loaded more shots overall than Gunners. (Reload/Speed)
6/10 The Gunners faired better in a Melee offensive. (Melee Power when told to attack)
7/10 The Yumi's faired better in a Melee Defensive, were as the gunners did not immediately pull out their melee weapons still trying to reload. (Melee power when they are attacked by the enemy)
Overall as far as killing power comes and Range Gunners win.
HOWEVER! One place I have noticed and did incorporate into my tests was a castle siege Defending and Offending.
DEFENDING- Archers are absolutely Dominant because they are cheaper and the are in Mass and make clouds of arrows at once, unlike in the field when they fire whenever.
OFFENDING - Pretty even like I mentioned Teppo's have more power and accuracy and Range, but while those are Great its a trade off for Speed, even though at first the Teppo's got off the first shots once the Yumi's start firing they DONT STOP.
Teppo - Range, Killing Power, Accuracy
Yumi - Speed, Quantity Fired, Accuracy is not necessarily required when you have many of them 45+
I tested to see what was better Yumi's or Teppo's So I hired 50 Hatamoto Archers and 50 Hatamoto Gunners. I ran the test 10 times for each 50 each test was under different circumstances and scenarios. Here was my results:
8/10 Times The Gunners were the first to get shots off than yumi's. (Range) (Only At first)
6/10 Times The Gunners were the first to get kills than the yumi's. (Kill Power)
9/10 The Yumi's off loaded more shots overall than Gunners. (Reload/Speed)
6/10 The Gunners faired better in a Melee offensive. (Melee Power when told to attack)
7/10 The Yumi's faired better in a Melee Defensive, were as the gunners did not immediately pull out their melee weapons still trying to reload. (Melee power when they are attacked by the enemy)
Overall as far as killing power comes and Range Gunners win.
HOWEVER! One place I have noticed and did incorporate into my tests was a castle siege Defending and Offending.
DEFENDING- Archers are absolutely Dominant because they are cheaper and the are in Mass and make clouds of arrows at once, unlike in the field when they fire whenever.
OFFENDING - Pretty even like I mentioned Teppo's have more power and accuracy and Range, but while those are Great its a trade off for Speed, even though at first the Teppo's got off the first shots once the Yumi's start firing they DONT STOP.
Teppo - Range, Killing Power, Accuracy
Yumi - Speed, Quantity Fired, Accuracy is not necessarily required when you have many of them 45+
Crlsniper
Recruit
Talinoth: I like your reasoning and it makes sense. Extra points for INT players(like myself most of the time) is a good plus for using guns. Pierceing is also a plus for guns. Long range, but poor accuracy has been menchened before and I think it's agreed that's a good trade off. Also can't remember but did gekokujo have 60 bullets in a bag? I may be thinking of another mod if not.
Sengoku Sush: first thank you for doing the tests, that really adds support to some of what Talinoth said and gives good evidence that they seem to not be at a disadvantage on the field(other than maybe defending castles and themselves). Oh I'll also try to find that post you talked about, but probably not right now.
So looking at both, unless someone can bring new evidence against guns, I'd say we can close this topic on guns for now. Though maybe someone can convince phlpp To somehow add in a machinegun cheat item
Sengoku Sush: first thank you for doing the tests, that really adds support to some of what Talinoth said and gives good evidence that they seem to not be at a disadvantage on the field(other than maybe defending castles and themselves). Oh I'll also try to find that post you talked about, but probably not right now.
So looking at both, unless someone can bring new evidence against guns, I'd say we can close this topic on guns for now. Though maybe someone can convince phlpp To somehow add in a machinegun cheat item
I think that's intentional. You can press X or whatever your key is for switching grip/stance/function. The first version does blunt damage (if you wanna keep your enemy alive) and the other is cutting damage of course.
The sakabatou (逆刃刀) is the fictitious sword used by Himura Kenshin in the anime Rurouni Kenshin, which features a reverse-edged blade (the blade is on the inside curve instead of the normal slashing side). Obviously you can turn the blade to use the edge at the back for cutting if you need to.
The sakabatou (逆刃刀) is the fictitious sword used by Himura Kenshin in the anime Rurouni Kenshin, which features a reverse-edged blade (the blade is on the inside curve instead of the normal slashing side). Obviously you can turn the blade to use the edge at the back for cutting if you need to.
