Cumans/Polovtsians/Kypchaks

Here's how they roughly behave in 1257AD gameplay:

The Mongol camps look like small tents, like the one which shows up if you camp and wait for some time, and have a party size of ~100, sometimes more, rarely less. I rarely saw more than 2 of these horde camps near 1 fief, ie. a fortress, village or a town. They spawn randomly as far as I can tell near faction centres. They are stationary in so far as that they don't move around like lords but they switch locations/spawn in a different location from time to time (ie. same camp disappears and is then respawned in a different location), roughly near a city/castle/village but they keep progressing into foreign/enemy territory, sometimes really far into it. They also rotate as if they were looking around and scanning the surrounding regions.

They can be attacked like any other parties around but they do not/cannot chase you, but if you happen to run into one of them, as an enemy to their factions, they will attack you. If you are a member of the Ilkhanate/Mongols (they both have them) they will join in your fights if they are nearby or if you are at war with an enemy faction of the Altan Ordyn Uls/Ilkhanate as a non-member. You then get a notification in the left corner of the screen 'Mongolian horde has joined you' or something. They'll also join in against you if you're an enemy of the Mongols. The battle against them is always a field battle, so you can't besiege a horde camp.

If there is one of those horde camps around an enemy city/castle and you try to conquer it, they'll also fight with you, same for siege defense, and they even join you in fights against bandits or other stuff and also during the defense/attack of a village if either you try to loot it and get attacked or it is being looted and you rush to the defense. Of course the same way around if you're an enemy to Mongols. In the current game the horde also joined me while I fought against the Mamluks for Hierosolymitanum even though the Ilkhanate wasn't at war with them, I guess it's some enmity thing between Mamluks and Ilkhanate or a bug .

I don't know how their spawn ratio is, how many of them are spawned, but I guess that it's about the same relation as with villages to fortresses/cities - 2 per city and 1 per fortress.

Good to see you here, mate!

And those camps sound pretty great. Especially the part that they're not actually moving around like lords (which would be senseless, as then they would just be duplicate lords), but are stationary and respawning in different places from time to time. I guess, however, that that would increase the number of computations on the strat-map and thus increase the lag there, no? Still, it sounds pretty cool!

Oh, and do they have the usual settlement options, like village elders/guild masters, recruitment options, markets etc?

Sounds like they are not really settlements - just parties. The two are different types in the module system

NikeBG said:

Good to see you here, mate!

And those camps sound pretty great. Especially the part that they're not actually moving around like lords (which would be senseless, as then they would just be duplicate lords), but are stationary and respawning in different places from time to time. I guess, however, that that would increase the number of computations on the strat-map and thus increase the lag there, no? Still, it sounds pretty cool!

Oh, and do they have the usual settlement options, like village elders/guild masters, recruitment options, markets etc?

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Hi there ,

no, they are more like lords, as kdm has said, supposedly they are parties. But on the other hand, if you go to one of them you have actually the possibility to visit the camp site where you then are redirected to some kind of nomad camp scene in a vast steppe, nothing around but the huts. The second option is 'Burn them! Burn them all! Attack the camp!' which is very obvious I guess - you then are redirected into a field battle scene. If you visit the camp site you can go to the main hut/tent in there and talk to a guy called Ba'atur where you have the possibility to invite the tribe into your lands in order to recruit people from them. Haven't tried it but I assume that it should only work if you're a member of either the Ilkhanate or Mongols. The second option with the Ba'atur is something like 'Yes. I ching ping pong...' or something, which I think shall express the communication difficulties and a general aversion against them. And I have to correct myself I just saw some of them move slightly, looks like a floating tent . Seems like they move a little bit from time to time instead of respawning but I thought that I had some of them also seen respawn some distance away. Additionally, those factions have some kind of mobile hordes which look and act like patrols but with double the strength in numbers (~100) and are also called 'Mongol horde'. But there are fewer of them as the tents.

Hmm it is actually not that bad then if that thing can act both as a party and a settlement

I guess Dr Thomas does not want to share his secrets 

I do not wander often as you might think, so i'm a bit late on the comments. On how the Mongol Camps work in 1257ad.:

In essence they are moving parties - like patrols. They have two states - moving and stationary. When they are stationary they can be visited by the player. When they are moving, they just patrol around there bound settlement. While they are not real centers per say, but they do have some of those features - like recruitment or ability to visit the camp.

They also get automatically reinforced weekly, but in essence can be attacked and destroyed. They automatically spawns near a mongol faction settlements(golden horde or ilkhanate) and to the centers who have Mongolian culture(like Sarai). But the player has the chance to invite them to there own settlement for money. Which might not be cheap, depending on how far they are from the center.

oroboros said:

'Yes. I ching ping pong...'

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I like my dialogues to be funny(i'm inspired by the first crusader kings game somewhat). Like attacking a moving mongolian camp dialogue is in essence a misunderstanding because of the language barrier 

kdm said:

Sounds like they are not really settlements - just parties. The two are different types in the module system

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Settlements are parties as well. But that's just technical details. 

That sounds pretty neat, especially if it can be coded that they'd be able to move only in the steppe zones.

Though, can they be made not to require a permanent settlement to patrol around? I personally would prefer if there are some permanent settlements in the Cuman lands as well, but I don't think we can find many...

NikeBG said:

That sounds pretty neat, especially if it can be coded that they'd be able to move only in the steppe zones.

Though, can they be made not to require a permanent settlement to patrol around? I personally would prefer if there are some permanent settlements in the Cuman lands as well, but I don't think we can find many...

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There are some Cuman settlements on the map I posted on the first page. But I agree roaming camps should not be bound to any settlements

If so, best would be add an invisible spawning point to the areas needed(like bandits have) and use it as the spawning and patrol point. Without a patrol point for them to patrol around, they would migrate randomly to other parts of the world.

I used centers for mongols as those points, because I liked the idea of them expanding with factions and the ability to invite one into your own lands.

Thanks a lot for sharing your secrets! Lovely idea.

Mihailo, you forgot to bump this as well?

So Russian principalities issued, it is time to quietly think about the sequel. After sitting at your leisure, and after reading some literature on the Polovtsian I got the following:



Don Polovtsians

Toksoba Tribe
Including Ulashevichi tribe and Targolove tribe

Khan Konchak.
- khan Yurii (son)
- khan Tatur (son)
- khan Bak Abak (son)
- khan Kopti - khan of the Ulashevichi tribe
- khan Chilbuk - khan of the Targolove tribe
- bek Akkubul
- bek Ansar (Brother of Akkubul bek)

Towns:
Sharukan
Tmutorakan'

Fortress:
Balyn
Sugrov


Dnieper-Lukomor Polovtsians

Burdjoghlu Tribe

Khan Osoluk
- Khan Izay 
- bek Eldechuk
- bek Gza Burnovich
- bek Roman Gzich
- bek Barak

Urusoba Tribe

Khan Togliy
- khan Akut
- bek Danila Kobyakovich
- bek Turunday  Danila's brother in law
- bek Koldechi

Towns:
Surozh (Sudaq)

Fortress:
Korchev
Olesh'e


Tertroba Tribe - where to put them is not clear from the literature data and in accordance with their cards can be called Danube-Bug Polovtsians, for example

Khan Kotyan
- khan Mangush Kotyanovich
- khan Somogur (brother of Kotyan)
- khan Jaropolk Tomzakovich
- bek Alpamysh
- bek Kocha
- bek Karas
- bek Bortz

8!

(That means "awesome")

Shouldn't it be reverse ? I mean like Khonchak Khan , Eldechuk Bek ? its at least how its used in Turkish, I doubt it was different in Kipchak 

Yes, for God's sake. I'm not against it. How Google translator translated from Russian, so I put in)))) On that subject, and created what would bring everything to a final version. Again, in Russian at the mention of the usual polovtsev decided to write, for example, Khan Konchak, not Konchak Khan....

Will there be a general Cuman roster or seperated rosters based on region or tribe ? seperated rosters would not make much sense as military structure would be pretty much same.


Any ideas on roster ? I don't know much about Cuman military terms but I can imagine the military tradition, tribesmen, retainers of nobles, higher quality retainers of rulers and other high people.

Inanch-Bilge said:

Will there be a general Cuman roster or seperated rosters based on region or tribe ? seperated rosters would not make much sense as military structure would be pretty much same.


Any ideas on roster ? I don't know much about Cuman military terms but I can imagine the military tradition, tribesmen, retainers of nobles, higher quality retainers of rulers and other high people.

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Hmm. I was based on the work of Peter Vasilyevich Goloubovsky "Pechenegi, torquey and Cumans before the invasion of the Tatars. The history of the South Russian steppes IX-XIII centuries. "And on "The Tale of Igor's Campaign ".
Over the lifetime of the Dasht-i-Kipchak , there prevailed the tribal system. Nomadic tribes , dubbed in Russia for the light color hair polovtsy ( polo'voy in Russia called chaff ) - is part of the wide world of medieval Eurasia, the peoples who speak Turkic languages. Historians , chroniclers knew them as Cuman or Kipchak . Crossed in the middle of the X century. the Volga , Kuman ousted ruling before them Pechenegs and occupied the area from the Caucasus to the Black Sea N. . The number one horde of nomads was from 20 to 40 thousand people. The total number of nomads in the southern Russian steppes beginning of XII- XIII century. was about 500-600 thousand.
Combining Polovtsian hordes ended in the XI century. Though statehood in the steppe was never. In the eleventh century. the western branch (Cuman) and eastern ( Kipchak - balls ), ie Polovtsian conform to " political associations " Bonyak - Tugorkana and Sharukan - Sughra .
In the twelfth century . this division remained in name only. Initial part of the military -political organization was Polovtsian hut - the union of several families , which originally was called Russian. At the head of the whole horde was Khan ( Hagan ) . Typically, the title joined a proper name , as evidenced by the names of the Polovtsian khans Tugorkan , Sharukan well known in Russia.
The main occupations were polovtsev husbandry and trade, but also raids on neighboring territories polovtsy considered as an important military and economic measures . " There comes a whole population with their flocks , covered wagon full of children and women, with a huge number of riders of all ages , men and young women ( unmarried ) ." Was typical of the steppe and the social structure of the Polovtsian hordes : a number of free treated horseless , ordinary soldiers , archers , the aristocracy , many Kuman had a significant number of slaves " convicts " of prisoners of war. His compatriots Kuman never enslaved . Before settling on the occupied territories , nomads, used by the ancient fortifications, only a little Equipping them .
In the XI-XII centuries. is rooting for Russia of nomadic tribes to settle on the border with the Russian steppe lands. The only form of relationship, which sought and demanded the Russian princes of the Polovtsian khans were vassal. During the granted land they became vassals of Kiev, Chernigov and Perejaslavskogo princes. But settling rituals, traditions, beliefs nomads almost did not change. In Russia distinguish "their pagan" ie, settled on the borders of the principalities of the nomads, and "Wild polovtsev." "Wild Cumans", known since the 40s. The twelfth century. Probably remnants of the defeated Polovtsian troops that are not included in the hordes and not related by blood relations. They were vassals of the Russian princes, did not settle on Russian land. Taking part in the internecine struggle, never opposed steppe relatives. The chronicle is replete with the names of "steppe children" who are referred to the service of the princes of Kievan Rus'. Cumans accepted Christianity whole clans

Turkic boots could be held up by straps from the front top of the boot to the belt.

Adapted from CLOTHING ‘The Saljuqs and the post-Saljuq period by Elsie H. Peck
'A characteristic fashion for rulers and men of high rank in the late 12th and early 13th centuries was tall boots, a natural choice of footgear for nomadic peoples, with a long tradition in Persia, from the Achaemenid period onward. On two ceramic pieces the pointed boot tops are elongated to form straps, which were apparently attached to inner belts in the manner of the leggings worn by the Parthians and Sasanians. That the boots illustrated in the Varqa wa Golšāh manuscript were attached in this way is clear from battle scenes, in which the displacement of the coat reveals a broad thong reaching from the knee to an inner belt. This method of securing boots was certainly of Central Asian origin and is represented in 6th-7th-century sculptures from Fondukistan, and 8th-9th-century wall paintings from Bäzäklik.'



The illustrations referenced are:
Parthian terracotta relief of a rider, Musée du Louvre
Varqa wa Golšāh
4: Scene of war; inscription: "Representation of the night attack of Rabi b. Adnân."
9: War Scene containing four riders and four people including two dead and fallen to the ground.
23: Gulshâh kills Rabî  by driving the lance in his chest; four horsemen and Warqah bound; inscription: "Gulshâh kills Ibn Adnân, saves Warqah"
26: Gulshâh struggles with Ghâlib, on foot; on one side Gulshâh's horse, throat cut, and on the other, that of Ghâlib, two legs cut off; in corners, weapons
41: Scene of war; Warqah brings defeat to the army of Bahrain and Adan and the pursuit.
Pranidhi scene No. 6, Temple No. 9, Bäzäklik, near Turfan, Tarim Basin, Central Asia
Royal Couple, Fondukistan, late 7th-early 8th century

See also the First Small Shāhnāmah, early 14th century AD, Iranian, Chester Beatty Library, Dublin

The boot-straps at Fondukistan may also have a ‘garter’ attached. Something similar can be seen on A Kipchak Balbal at Luhansk, 11th century & A Kipchak Balbal, 12th century, Hermitage Museum, St. Petersburg, Russia

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers