Byzantium/Romans info for warband 1200

Korinov said:

I don't think the "mercenary issue" will be too much of a problem. We could just split the professional TT in two (since there's no noble TT, both mercenary TTs could be recruited in castles without any need of extra coding). So one TT could be made of "light" mercs (slavs, cumans, turks, etc) and the other one of "heavy" mercs (italians, normans, etc). Of course, I can also create some units outside the TTs, make them regular mercenaries only recruitable in the empire's taberns but also feature them in the AI's roman armies.

Since the Byzs won't have a noble TT, we can afford giving them elite troops in other TTs that other factions shouldn't have.

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Well the problem I see with that is that you are not then covering their native troops which were still around, so a solution could be

in tavern, Varangian guard unit (in Constantinople) and then other mercs as logically as we can put them throughout the provinces. This would cover the mercenaries

Then on the regular forces troop tree put the Byzantine infantry types that would convert into either archers or veteran infantry

and then on the noble line put the different cavalry types, at the least their horse archers and the cataphractoi need to be in it.

This would cover all of the bases in question

wafer said:

Also the Varangian troops should definitely be a unique unit in the tavern at Constantinople since the idea of normal troops being converted into them is a bit goofy, and it will let you have instant access to them.

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As I said, that's not necessary. Furthermore, it's extremely... unpractical, since "tavern mercenaries" are common mercenaries available to everyone, including the player who has just started as a common peasant. And I don't like the idea of peasants leading Varangians, Latinikon, Vardariotai etc. I also don't like the idea of foreign vassals recruiting those same units from some inn in Constantinople and leading them to God knows where. Heck, I'm not even sure if we should distribute the Varangians among the Byzantine lords themselves - the Varangians were palace guards, protecting the emperor and the capital and although sometimes they would be sent by imperial order to do some task (without the emperor leading the campaign), they would be commanded by their respective akolouthos. Maybe we should just have an akolouthos (preferably a historical one, if we can find him (Edit: Actually, the Wiki page on the akolouthos gives us exactly that - the akolouthos in 1199 - Ioannes Nomikopoulos)) lord with a purely Varangian army, attached to/following the emperor?

Korinov said:

Since the Byzs won't have a noble TT, we can afford giving them elite troops in other TTs that other factions shouldn't have.

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Actually, I'm also not sure about that one. The pronoiarioi f.e. were aristocrats, especially those who received larger pronoia-grants. Some of them were also archontopouloi or more precisely - some archonotpouloi, after finishing their training in the royal court, would become (elite) pronoiars. The Wiki page for the Komnenean army also says this: "Of increasing importance during the family-centric Komnenian period were the men known as oikeioi (οἰκείοι, "those of the household"); when mobilized for war the oikeioi were the equivalent of the household knights of western kings and would have served as kataphraktoi. These household troops would have included the emperor's personal retinue, his relatives and close associates, also accompanied by their immediate retinues, and the young aristocrats attached to the court; plus they probably also included the vestiaritai guards." So I think a noble troop tree could be constructed. If you wish, I can ask some friends at the CBUR forum (though we're a bit busy with the TGC mod right now, so it might take some time)?

NikeBG said:

wafer said:

Also the Varangian troops should definitely be a unique unit in the tavern at Constantinople since the idea of normal troops being converted into them is a bit goofy, and it will let you have instant access to them.

Click to expand...

As I said, that's not necessary. Furthermore, it's extremely... unpractical, since "tavern mercenaries" are common mercenaries available to everyone, including the player who has just started as a common peasant. And I don't like the idea of peasants leading Varangians, Latinikon, Vardariotai etc. I also don't like the idea of foreign vassals recruiting those same units from some inn in Constantinople and leading them to God knows where. Heck, I'm not even sure if we should distribute the Varangians among the Byzantine lords themselves - the Varangians were palace guards, protecting the emperor and the capital and although sometimes they would be sent by imperial order to do some task (without the emperor leading the campaign), they would be commanded by their respective akolouthos. Maybe we should just have an akolouthos (preferably a historical one, if we can find him) lord with a purely Varangian army, attached to/following the emperor?

Korinov said:

Since the Byzs won't have a noble TT, we can afford giving them elite troops in other TTs that other factions shouldn't have.

Click to expand...

Actually, I'm also not sure about that one. The pronoiarioi f.e. were aristocrats, especially those who received larger pronoia-grants. Some of them were also archontopouloi or more precisely - some archonotpouloi, after finishing their training in the royal court, would become (elite) pronoiars. The Wiki page for the Komnenean army also says this: "Of increasing importance during the family-centric Komnenian period were the men known as oikeioi (οἰκείοι, "those of the household"); when mobilized for war the oikeioi were the equivalent of the household knights of western kings and would have served as kataphraktoi. These household troops would have included the emperor's personal retinue, his relatives and close associates, also accompanied by their immediate retinues, and the young aristocrats attached to the court; plus they probably also included the vestiaritai guards." So I think a noble troop tree could be constructed. If you wish, I can ask some friends at the CBUR forum (though we're a bit busy with the TGC mod right now, so it might take some time)?

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Actually to further expand on his point during the Komnenean period one of the reasons we have so little information about their average infantry and soldiers is because so much time was spent documenting the nobles and their fighting styles. also there is a way to make the Varangians only available in Constantinople as well as making them go away or come back if a faction is in control 1257 has that in it, I have no idea how long it took to do however ask drThomas

wafer said:

Well the problem I see with that is that you are not then covering their native troops which were still around, so a solution could be

in tavern, Varangian guard unit (in Constantinople) and then other mercs as logically as we can put them throughout the provinces. This would cover the mercenaries

Then on the regular forces troop tree put the Byzantine infantry types that would convert into either archers or veteran infantry

and then on the noble line put the different cavalry types, at the least their horse archers and the cataphractoi need to be in it.

This would cover all of the bases in question

Click to expand...

You actually know how many troop trees does any faction have in this mod?

@Nike

Hmm... well, that certainly opens new possibilities. I'd wait for Cèsar's opinion before making any crucial decision though.

Korinov said:

wafer said:

Well the problem I see with that is that you are not then covering their native troops which were still around, so a solution could be

in tavern, Varangian guard unit (in Constantinople) and then other mercs as logically as we can put them throughout the provinces. This would cover the mercenaries

Then on the regular forces troop tree put the Byzantine infantry types that would convert into either archers or veteran infantry

and then on the noble line put the different cavalry types, at the least their horse archers and the cataphractoi need to be in it.

This would cover all of the bases in question

Click to expand...

You actually know how many troop trees does any faction have in this mod?

@Nike

Hmm... well, that certainly opens new possibilities. I'd wait for Cèsar's opinion before making any crucial decision though.

Click to expand...

Sorry about that I am still getting used to the way you guys lay out the troop tree from the other mod I play.

Basically, it's 4 troop trees:
- Rural (from villages) - peasant levies, they stay the same, no matter who has conquered the village
- Urban (from towns) - town militias, they stay the same, no matter who has conquered the town
- Professionals (from castles) - regular, professional troops, depending on the faction that controls the castle
- Nobles (from castles) - noble troops, like knights, depending on the faction that controls the castle

So, say, William the Bastard conquers England - he still has Saxon peasants and militias, but Norman professionals and nobles.

Can anyone here give me an idea how long until the actual work on the Byzantines will be started, and what research is done? My semester will be starting soon and if it is farther away I will have time do get a lot of primary sources and secondary sources to help in the areas it needs to be as someone else mentioned that a lot of research on them was already done and I know they were in one of the older carnations of the game that unfortunately I didn't get the chance to play.

In 1200 ad Romans still had "native" troops in their disposal ,despite the fact that Turks ,Magyars, Serbs, Germans, Normans, Pechenegs and many others were
part of the main armies.
Mercenaries replaced actually 90% of the Tagmatic units because after 1071 ad Emperors did not trust them.
Thematic troops were also in decline in numbers and quality but still existed with some "west" influenced troops like pronoiars.
In 1167 "cataphtact" style troops still existed under the names like Archontopulla and others.
The last "cataphract" style troops that mentioned are those 512 horsemen that sallied out to counter 80 knights in 1204AD.
Bad economics after 1025 did not allow high quality troops but under a certain average level "millitias" still existed.
Units with names like :
Accontistae
Kontaratoi
Peltastoi
Toxotae
Kavalarioi
Stratiotae
Scutatoi
Castrophylakae
still existed with additions like
Pronoiarioi
Archontopulla
Loricati (that name describes in real warriors under long chain mails that replaced long scale/lammelar cuirasses)
Turcopulla (christian turks that fought as horsearchers)
Mourtatoi (tyrkish and magyar christian archers)
Also Italian cities that needed to defend their investments in Roman cities and protect their interests
offered troops under the name Gasmouloi and their favorite weapon was the crossbow.

Yay, welcome here, Tony!
Now, considering Byzantium is probably the best candidate for the next to-be-included faction (at least I presume so), what are your thoughts on a potential Byzantine troop tree(s) for 1200? As I've mentioned above, the mod has 4 troop trees (village levies, town militias, castle professionals and castle nobles), but that can be changed for the different factions (f.e. Serbia and, in the next version, Bulgaria will have one tree for both the villages and towns, while Ragusa's/Dubrovnik's town tree is actually a merceneary tree, IIRC).

I am not familliar of how troops can deploy/recruit in warband mods but i can give a clew and you can make
necesary adjustments.

So...Romans had their native millitias/peseant troops recruited in the urban centers and kept their their hardcore army in huge cities byt mainly
in the capital.
Warband has castles as well.
Question : What castles present in middle ages?
Answer : Rich semi-indipentant local lords with private armies that would/would not follow their lord to battle (feudal system).
Question : Did Romans had such lords that age?
Answer : Yes espesialy after Basill II's death when Emperors took the small lands from their owners and gave them to their suporters
that created small states inside the state.
Possible names :
Archontae
Dynatoi or pronoiars .
If you have to separate the character titles of castle owners from unit names then a "x" lord of a castle can be named Dynatos or Archon.
His troops will be in the "Pronoiar" unit tree.

Let's start from Villages:
Villages have mainly untrained land workers that may/may not belong to a local Lord that has a castle near by.
Those peseants though were not unarmed.
There are two possible peseant units.
One with axes and spears
Ones with axes and javelins (hunting tools).
Both totaly without any armor.
Some of them can have wooden buclers.

Cities can offer much bigger variety of troops.
"Citizens" can have all kind of weapons.
Starting from common folk we could have:
A unit with axes and javelins (even same with village peseants) that would offer two branches:
1st Branch :
Heavier javelinmen with leather armors and padded suits, wooden round or small kite shields, helmets and same weapons.
That heavier javelinman could be upgraded to Peltastoi (swordmen with javelins)with short/light chain mails and wooden round shields or kite ones.
2nd Branch:
Toxotae: Unarmored archers but with axes and swords, with small buclers and helmets and simple bows.
These men could be upgrade to Murtatoi archers with leather armors,padded suits, round shields,swords instead od axes and combosite bows.
Melee troops could start with unarmored -in body-spearmen armed with swords and spears ,kite shields and helmets.
That unit could also have two branches:
1st branch:
Castrophylakae :Helmets, leather or padded armors,round wooden shields or kite ones ,swords and spears.
Scutatoi : Chain mails ,helmets, kite shields,swords and spears.
Heavy scutatoi : scale/lammelar cuirasses same equipment with previus unit.
2nd branch:
Cavalarioi : Horsemen with leather/padded armors, round/kite shields, swords and spears.
Stratiotae : Heavy horsemen with a variety of armors from chain mail to scale/lammelar cuirasses ,kite shields etc.
Castles and their trees confuse me a bit but instead of two trees you can have one.
Lords of a castle can have basicaly only two units.
No upgrades if possible but with huge upkeep and recruitment cost.
Turcopulla (christian turkish horsearchers with a variety of byzantine/turkish equipment).
Pronoiars heavy lancers.
Because in this game units can dismount and defend castles there is no need of a "dismounted" version of these troops.
If by "nobles" you mean the escort of a land owner "pronoiars" are for that job.
If you need a heavier unit other than Pronoiars only for each "character" escort that can not be recruited by players then you can have a heavier
version of Pronoiars.
If you can make a city with only mercenaries for a spesific faction then Constantinople is your place:

Emperors do not trust local troops but they have some native ones as escort.
But Constantinople can be guarded almost exclusevly by mercenaries that Emperor or player can recruit from there.
Anglo/Vikingwarriors theat upgrade to Varangian guards tier 1 that upgrade to varangian guards tier 2.
Scithicon
A combination of Turkish,Cuman and Magyar horsearchers.
Latinikon Knights that start with "norman" style equipment and upgrade with 1200's style one.
Gasmouloi (crossbowmen) that start with padded suits and upgrade with light chain mails.

Now...If you need a unit that exclusevly guards the Emperor's pallace or escort him but players can not recruit
you can have Archontopulla (cataphract style lancers) or Vasilikoi Anthropoi (cataphract style but with long chain mails instead of long scale/lammelar cuirasses). if you want Archontopulla to be an upgrade of Stratiotae or the escorts of Local Lords .

Uhm, even I have a hard time going through all this. Basically, here's how the troop tree looks for Bulgaria (let's leave all the equipment notes for later):
Bulgaria at the moment (you can also see all other unit trees and other informations in the Info thread here):

MihailoSRB said:

BULGARIA

Spoiler

Rural (Bulgarian) troop tree:
Peasant --- Woodsman --- Hunter --- Bowman --- Luchnik
|                          |
|                          Axeman
Levy Spearman --- Akrit --- Veteran Akrit
|
Levy Horseman
|
Raider

Rural (Vlach) troop tree:
Peasant --- Spearman --- Veteran Spearman
    |                    |
    |              Clubman
Highlander --- Hunter --- Bowman --- Marksman
    |
Horseman

Rural (Cuman) troop tree:
Scout --- Horseman --- Veteran Horseman --- Raider

Militia troop tree:
Militia --- Archer Militia --- Veteran Archer Militia --- Watchman
  |
Spear Militia --- Veteran Spear Militia
  |
Mace Militia --- Sword Militia


Sergeant troop tree:
Warrior --- Skirmisher --- Archer --- Marksman
    |                                      |
    |                                  Horse Archer
Axeman --- Maceman --- Swordsman
    |
Spearman --- Veteran Spearman --- Shtitonosets
    |
Horseman
    |
Oklopnik

Noble troop tree:
Minor Pronoiar --- Pronoiar --- Velmozha --- Bolyarin --- Stareishij Bolyarin --- Vlastelin

Click to expand...

For the next version, I've united the Bulgarian village and town troop trees into one:

Of course, I'm not certain what was our plan for the Byzantines in terms of ethnic/AoR variation (i.e. would Thessaly give Vlach peasants, while Macedonia - Bulgarian ones and Philippopolis maybe Armenians). So, for now, you could use my troop tree as an example and adjust it accordingly to the Byzantines. Also, the foreign regiments (Skytikon, Latinikon, Varangians etc etc) should, IMO, be single units (or maybe 2-tiered, if it's required) separate from the other troop trees, so we don't get to upgrade Romans into Latins or Varangians, which would be silly (Korinov, that's doable, right? Or it would be a problem to find out how the player could recruit them (if he should be able to recruit them in the first place?)?).

Well, that's a possibility. They could also be integrated into some kind of 'united' professional/mercenary troop tree, although I'm still not sure about what to do. I still don't know if we're gonna give them a noble troop tree or not.

For instance, by 1200, was the Varangian guard just that, a group of elite soldiers tasked with 'guarding' the emperor? If it were the case, only the emperor himself should have them in his warband, and they wouldn't be available to be recruited by the player by normal means.

Aye, that's what's bugging me as well. Though I think the other foreign units weren't limited to imperial guards. And, as I mentioned before, the Varangians were headed by a (Byzantine by origin) officer with the rank of akolouthos (and I posted the guy who had that title in 1199) and were sometimes sent to fight in different campaigns without the emperor (i.e. the emperor stayed in Constantinople, while the Varangians went to fight Petar Delyan's rebels f.e.), so we could eventually have a lord (the akolouthos guy) who would have a Varangian army as well? Or maybe even make it so (either like a quest or a changed marshal-mechanic) that the player could become the akolouthos and then recruit Varangians someway? There's definitely lots of possibilities for the development of the Byzantines.

Edit: Added link to previous post with the akolouthos' name.

I could create a specific subculture for both the Emperor and the Akolouthos, replacing the rural & urban troops with Varangians.

Urban troops could do well being varangians, but i guess for rural ones you only need to add a greek troop tree and then mix in bulgarians, albanians, cummans, etc.

But Varangians didn't live in Thessaloniki or Philippopolis etc. And they certainly didn't become Varangians after serving as Greek town watch, for example. That's why I think these foreign troops, these special mercenaries and imperial guards, would have to be unconnected from the main troop trees.

And where did Tony go? We could surely use some more help here!

Hey, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying I'll make varangians recruitable or upgradeable from militia or peasant units. I just said I think I can code the emperor and the akolouthos' armies in order to field varangians instead of the usual militia/peasant units. They would be truly elite armies then.

One question I had was whether or not there was a way to code in coups in war band as maybe a quest of some sort for the player?

NikeBG said:

But Varangians didn't live in Thessaloniki or Philippopolis etc. And they certainly didn't become Varangians after serving as Greek town watch, for example. That's why I think these foreign troops, these special mercenaries and imperial guards, would have to be unconnected from the main troop trees.

And where did Tony go? We could surely use some more help here!

Click to expand...

Putting Islamic warriors in TGC...
Anyway
You must always have in mind this:
Mercenaries replaced the majority of Tagmatic troops.
The emperors gathered them in Constantinople because they felt insecure about their subjects intentions against them.
Emperors did not trust native troops espesialy after the great treason in 1071 in Majikert.

So instead having Tagmatic units you must have mercenaries.
Emperors though must have a "native" guard for prestige reasons.
We often misunderstand the meening of the phrase "they guarded the emperor".
In fact 6-8000 Anglo-Varangians did not have guard duties in the pallace.
But Varangians, Pharganoi and Latins sent units to co-exist in the pallace with imperial guards.
Romans still had the "preatorian" fear...
But in theory a player can become an emperor or rival emperor in the game.
He/she must be able to recruit uch troops but only if he/she control's Constantinople.

In tavern of Constantinople mercs like Serbian spearmen , German or Hungarian knights, Gasmuloi crossbowmen could be available.

The unit tree in Constantinople must be more sophisticated.
Varangians can have two tiers.
Latinikon also two tiers.
Scithicon (cumans+turks+hungarian horserachers) must have also two tiers.

MihailoSRB said:

NikeBG said:

MihailoSRB said:

Meaning, when the Byzantines lost it in the 1180s, they lost it forever.

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That is if you don't count the Epirotes as Byzantines, of course, which they were.

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I will correct myself:
Meaning, when the Byzantine Empire lost it in the 1180s, they lost it forever.

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They lost everything in the forthcoming three hundred years. So The Fourth crusade was the beginning of a steady deline.