Complicated with bows gradation

I have decided to change my self from crossbow to bow and encounter with some complication with their gradation. In the crossbow's case it is very easy - better is more expensive. But in bows can't understand of how to choose it in a whole chaos.
Found in shop: Masterwork Composite bow - Damage 12, Accuracy 95, Speed rating 48, Requires power draw 6; Price - more than 12000
Just selling near : Masterwork Self bow - Damage 11, Accuracy 95, Speed rating 71 (half time higher!), Requires power draw 7; Price - 7 times less 
And finally: Masterwork Hunting Self bow - Damage 10, Accuracy 97 (more than above!), Speed rating 76 (faster than above!), Requires power draw 0 (without any restrictions!); Price - 30 times less! 
Where is the hidden sense? May be I don't know something about bows, but i think with such particulars the last bow is much better then first one, and should coast accordingly.

The composite bow is much stronger than the Self bow, but the Self bow is more rapid fire . The hunting self bow is a useless piece of crap meant for killing chickens .

I don't agree with what Laziman just said, they are not that bad. I don't remember the right formula but I found this one:

Bow raw damage before armor is calculated by:
raw_damage = (bow_damage + arrow_damage) * (archery_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1) + strength / 5.0

Also:
- 10 wpf is equal to 1.5% damage. You have a 15% damage penalty at 0 wpf.
- Maximum power draw bonus - obviously only for bows - is for (bow difficulty + 4) points of the skill, each point giving 14% damage bonus (if the requirement is PD 2, having PD 6 or 10 will be the same for damage calculation)
- Without horse archery a mounted bowman does 20% less damage. Each point of horse archery reduces this penalty by 1.9% (percentile units). At 10 HA the damage is 99% of normal.
- Rain reduces bow damage by 10%
- Strength gives 1/5 points of damage not affected by any negative or positive modifier


In your example, let's consider you have a power draw 8, proficiency 150, str 24 (minimum for PD 8 ) and arrows +30:
Masterwork Composite bow
raw damage = (12+30)*(150*0.01*0.15+0.85)*((8 )*0.14+1)+24/5=100.518
Masterwork self bow
raw damage = (11+30)*(150*0.01*0.15+0.85)*((8 )*0.14+1)+24/5=98.239
Hunting self bow
raw damage = (10+30)*(150*0.01*0.15+0.85)*((4)*0.14+1)+24/5=71.88
note: actually it should be ((8-0)*0.14+1), but it can't be more than 4

The accuracy is not so relevant, everything above 90 is just good. Also the "effective" accuracy is increased by your wpf, so it will be greater than 95 or 97.
Speed is more important, but it does a great difference only during sieges, cause you will rain bags of arrows over the enemies. During a normal small-medium battle you will not use more than 1-2 quivers anyway, so speed is not that decisive IMHO.
PD and wpf also increase your aiming time.


P.S. hunting self bows with no PD requirements are excellent for my healer companion. He can do good damages even without using skill points on PD and he's out of the melee, cause he will use the bow.


edit: i had to put a space between 8 and ), or it would have been a smiley

Dromel said:

Bow raw damage before armor is calculated by:
raw_damage = (bow_damage + arrow_damage) * (archery_wpf * 0.01 * 0.15 + 0.85) * (min(power_draw, difficulty + 4) * 0.14 + 1) + strength / 5.0

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Thanks for the formula given, now became clear. Understood that for low power draw level hunting bow is a best choice, But with level of power draw above 4 it  loose it ability to grow with damage.
But anyhow can say that I need the bow on siege only. And IMHO the speed the main particular there. So even with less damage (2 point only, it is small mistake in your calculation) the self bow is much/much better than composite, take in mind it speed. But price 7 times less in shops. Why?
Now I will keep your formula in mind when I will check the shops in spite of price. Thanks

alekskoles said:

(2 point only, it is small mistake in your calculation)

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You're right, i edited the result

Speed is surely important, the self bow is 30% faster than the composite, but it's in sieges that even 1 point of difference can be usefull. About the price i agree, it's not so rare to find two items with different stats and opposite prices. Sometimes a "Thick", "Heavy" or "Masterwork" can raise the price much more than the real values of an armor piece or a weapon.

Isn't there also different range for bows? Maybe composite bow has higher range?

Dromel said:

Sometimes a "Thick", "Heavy" or "Masterwork" can raise the price much more than the real values of an armor piece or a weapon.

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Not in this case. I know it, that's why I compare 3 Masterworks items.

Pööukkeli said:

Isn't there also different range for bows? Maybe composite bow has higher range?

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I have also thought about it. Also thought about flat trajectory particular. (I dont sure it is correct term) I mean the height of point of aim above of point of target. But how to know it without using

Dromel you just proved me right, hunting self bow is a piece of crap compared to the composite bow, go higher up to the Hun Bow , Mongol Bow and Long bow those are even better . Mongol and Longbow are the only bows you want to bother with .

But I dont suppose it makes a difference with 500ish profiency and full PD level .

Yes Lazyman, i agree it's much weaker if compared to the others, i was just saying that having no PD requirements makes it still usefull for my companion.
Anyway you still have to consider that the others need PD of 6-7, so, before you reach that level, hunting self bow can still be quite good (at PD 5 it has 71.88 raw damage while the others have 0 cause you can't use them )

I suppose it can be good to raise your proficiency firing into mass blobs rapidly .

Dromel said:

hunting self bow can still be quite good (at PD 5 it has 71.88 raw damage while the others have 0 cause you can't use them )

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Agreed.
I use this one until I'm able to use the hun bow, and I'm still deadly with it.

That 71.88 raw damage is just that, raw, you will not be one shotting anything .

My raw damage is ~94 (archery_wpf 320), so it shoots.

And since I use it mostly to take down enemy archers who are poorly armored, it' enough for my use.
Also its speed allow me to shoot them before they shoot me with their composite bow so they do more damage but they do nothing

All well and good until the time you mount a horse, then you realize the knight chasing you cant be taken down with a mere self bow .

Just head-shot their horse, turn around and finish them with a lance .
Usually that's what i do when in battle:
- kill enemy knights/horses when they are far from their infantry (a dismounted knight become infantry and just walk back to the rest of the army: easier kill for knight or archers);
- kill enemy archers either with my bow or leading the cavalry to them (if you don't, they will continue to group for every reinforcement wave, until you have to face a huge line of archers that your infantry can reach only after many causalties);
- kill enemy infantry from their back or left side (the shield are on the right);
- when more enemies spawn, grab some arrows from dead archers, walk behind your infantry and restart

Many thanks for Your advices gents. Now I much more familiarized in this issue. I need the bow to defend the siege only, even from second half of siege when my health low down and not allow me to protect enter point with sword. Using your info I see that hunter bow is a best on this purpose, very fast, endless arrows. Think I will bring more good with it, even if I kill less enemies, I will reduce their helth and my troops will kill them easy.
Just one item unfair. I reseive the best item for my purpose in the begin, almost free  and further I loose the motivation to grow in this way.

Lazyman said:

All well and good until the time you mount a horse, then you realize the knight chasing you cant be taken down with a mere self bow .

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A knight chasing me is eligible to a 180° left turn while stopping my horse then my sword in his face when crossing.
At least + 100% speed bonus if well done and him unable to reach me with his couched lance on his right side -> instant kill without risk

alekskoles said:

Many thanks for Your advices gents. Now I much more familiarized in this issue. I need the bow to defend the siege only, even from second half of siege when my health low down and not allow me to protect enter point with sword. Using your info I see that hunter bow is a best on this purpose, very fast, endless arrows. Think I will bring more good with it, even if I kill less enemies, I will reduce their helth and my troops will kill them easy.
Just one item unfair. I reseive the best item for my purpose in the begin, almost free  and further I loose the motivation to grow in this way.

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It's exactly what this bow is good at.
But raising the bow skill worth it. At high proficiency a masterwork hun bow is still fast and you will do the same thing, just killing them instead of lowering their health.

Killing a dismounted Miles with a lance is childs play, I do it with a mace . You get a nice sum for a captured knight .

Considering bows you shouldn't forget that the base damage calculation leaves out the shot speed of bows&throws. A higher shot speed does not only make a flatter trajectory but also adds some damage to the weapon. The composite bow has something like a 25% higher shot speed than the self bow, so it won't only do the ~100 base damage but some 5-10 points more damage due to the much higher shot speed. A composite bow has an increased efficient range compared to the self bow - it shoots farther and deals more damage on longer distances, although the visible values may suggest that they are almost even in performance.

oroboros said:

Considering bows you shouldn't forget that the base damage calculation leaves out the shot speed of bows&throws.

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This is nise thinking. But where to see such particular as shot speed of bow. In some editor or in itemkinds.txt? May be You know it from experience of use different types of bows, but without such experience how to understand which bow has highter shot speed?