Scottish Independence

Magorian Aximand said:

I have to say yes to independence. My family has a proud Scottish history, and I'm banking on that getting me citizenship should the US go bottoms up.

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Folk will be welcome, and be able to gain citizenship, regardless of their family history. There is no ethnic element to the resurgent Scottish nationalism (at least, not to the SNP's version of it, which is my preferred version too).  You're a smart guy, and know stuff, so you'd get in no probs without having to prove clan membership or anything like that. 

Legolan said:

lol if the fourth reich rises anytime soon, maybe I can get into germany since Im a Wiese 

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According to the left wing of the anti-independence campaign (I'm not sure if they realise who they are allying themselves with, and supporting, ) the Fourth Reich will shortly arise in Scotland, as The Re-Born Fuhrer Alex Salmond leads all us silly delusional nationalists into "separatism", an ethnic cleansing campaign against the English, and certain disaster.  The fact that real anti-independence advocates have honestly expressed that view just shows... well, it just shows.

It could be true, I suppose.  It would certainly explain why Rudolf Hess does our weather forecasts up here now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzOvc4XuFNc

We should grant independence, then invade them.

Sir Hitson Winsler said:

We should grant independence, then invade them.

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With what?
We'd be defeated, it's the wilds up there man. Only death awaits an Englishman what crosses that far border with arms in hand.
There's a reason why the Scots are heralded as the best soldiers in the Armed Forces.

Devercia said:

With the exception of foreign policy, I don't see the difference between this and the UK simply abandoning a unitary government for a federal government.

I'd like to take the moment to welcome Scotland to the righteous greens from the dirty fascist blues!

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Well, foreign policy is key as far as I'm concerned.  A lot of people won't like to hear it, and I suppose it is kind of offensive and insulting if you happen to be someone who still thinks the British State is worthwhile, or a force for good in the world, but one of the reasons I want full independence is to hinder and destroy the United Kingdom's ability to project itself militarily in the world. 

I am, in that sense, a traitor against the British State, as it is currently constituted.  I would like it to be weaker.  I would like the UK to lose it's "permanent" seat on the UN Security Council, through the loss of it's territory, troops, resources, military bases, nuclear deterrent, etc. in Scotland.

I see this as the only peaceful way to prevent the UK government from joining a "war of choice" against Iran, which it is clearly headed for - Fox, Werrity, Gould, etc. have made the plans, and laid the groundwork.  I want to **** their plans up from left field.

I also think Scotland would be better off independent. 

EDIT:  And so would England.

Um, also, hiya Adorno!  You are correct, sir, as always.

I think we should remain United today as we have for the odd 300 years we have been one nation and i hope as it seems it will that we shall remain as one nation united in our history heritage and pride of what we achieved united.

Kobrag said:

Sir Hitson Winsler said:

We should grant independence, then invade them.

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With what?
We'd be defeated, it's the wilds up there man. Only death awaits an Englishman what crosses that far border with arms in hand.
There's a reason why the Scots are heralded as the best soldiers in the Armed Forces.

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come on we could defeat Scotland any day good soldiers they may be but we have the even more formidable Gurkha's and most Scottish regiments say they would never fight their English brothers and would remain loyal to the Queen, and Scotland has already said it would not have the resources and money to support a large force it would have to have a small defence force.

Didn't they say that they wanted the armed forces to remain as one?

most Scots do but some of the SNP ministers are pushing for complete break away which would be a huge shame.

kenski1, from your avatar and signature, I think it is unlikely we will agree on much. 

But despite my apparently traitorous words and aims, trust me, I love England, I love Britain, and I am as proud as you are of our shared history (with exceptions, just maybe, for imperialism, the slave trade abroad, and the eternal and continued wage-slavery at home). 

It is the Treaty of Union I hate, and the Treaty of Union I want to dissolve.  The countries which signed to that Treaty will survive just fine.  The British Isles will still be there, so folk can still be British - it is a geographical area, after all. 

All I want is to live in a country which is not dictated to by another country.  And to prevent WW3.

Sir Hitson Winsler said:

Didn't they say that they wanted the armed forces to remain as one?

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The SNP have always said they would establish a separate Scottish Defence Force - around about the size of Norway's armed forces - but of course Scots could (and would) still serve in the British Armed Forces, like the Irish Guards do now, or like servicemen and women from the commonwealth countries do.  Or even like Gurkhas.

I find it strange how some Scottish ministers and nationalists are talking as though the split has already happend even though a majority of Scots want to remain in the United Kingdom.

The main aim of the referendum is actually to have Westminter conceed all matters of Scottish tax and spendature to the Scottish parliament.
The independence thing is just for impact.

Nevertheless, full independence will be the result. 

There is no legitimate political force left in Scotland to stand against it.  The unionist parties are dead and buried.  They killed themselves, and long may they remain now in their dusty crypts.

Don't believe the polls.  The polls said the SNP would lose the last election by a wide margin. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW4K52P0v2M&context=C3b99b0aADOEgsToPDskIUUl4VgSSrHhI68V1NTfgI

Yes but cant see the terrbible effects of such a thing as scotland leaving the union for both the United Kingdom and Scotland, and to see that it will not happen with a majority wishing to remain as the union thats why the scottish first minister is trying to get a refrudum pakage without a vote as he knows he will lose as support for the union is on the rise where as his is either on the fall in some areas or not growing.

To be honest, scotland hasn;t benifited from the union for a while.
Nor has most of England.

All the Money goes down south. 

Flanged said:

I feel this is the future.  Everybody thought we were headed towards ever-greater integration and ever-closer union under globalisation - everyone predicted that nations would become nothing more than semi-autonomous regions within hemispheric super-states (EU, US, China, etc).  In fact I think we will see the opposite - an increasing number of breakaway states and small new nations joining up in loose confederations (with diplomatic and trade treaties between each other, but no overarching political union) to do their own thing.

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That's where your problem starts. They'll break up, but because they're members of these confederations they end up doing whatever the confederation (or at least it's main player) decides to do anyway. What you end up with is not self-determination, it's national middle management with the occasional election to pick everyone's employee of the past four years.

You can already see it in fact - the SNP isn't doing anything that Plaid Cymru isn't, and no doubt we'd see an identical thing if Northern Ireland and England could get their **** together. In the end there's only one difference between the UK and dissolving the union entirely - the former has a whole collection of forgettable ****s in suits blethering on into cameras, the latter you only have one prick in a suit doing the same thing.

In fact, **** the union, I say we simply dissolve parliament altogether and instead utilise the Miss Britain competition to elect our national leader(s). Would make **** all difference except for the news being slightly more bearable.

Rams said:

England should be ruled by Scotland.

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Erm, it is. See James 1st. Oh, and Gordon Brown of course. In fact if you look at the history of the Union, it seems England essentially bankrolls Scotland while Scotland keeps foisting unelected governments on England. Although admittedly, since people like Thatcher tend to be the result when you let the English pick their own government there's a pretty good argument for that one.

Flanged said:

Nevertheless, full independence will be the result. 

There is no legitimate political force left in Scotland to stand against it.  The unionist parties are dead and buried.  They killed themselves, and long may they remain now in their dusty crypts.

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Yeah, because I voted SNP purely because of their views on secession. Rather than them being one of the only Socialist parties left in the British Isles.
Nobody has to stand against the SNP, as the SNP themselves could tell you around 75% of their voters (and about 40% of their actual party) are against dissolving the union. It's why Salmon keeps trying to put off the referendum rather than instigating it as soon as they could, he knows damn well he'll lose.

Kobrag said:

To be honest, scotland hasn;t benifited from the union for a while.
Nor has most of England.

All the Money goes down south. 

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Actually Scotland has. The free prescriptions, subsidised transport, lack of tuition fees et al are all subsidised by the English & Welsh taxpayers.

kenski1 said:

Yes but cant see the terrbible effects of such a thing as scotland leaving the union for both the United Kingdom and Scotland, and to see that it will not happen with a majority wishing to remain as the union

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I can see that it won't happen if a majority of voters in Scotland choose to stay in the Union.  That would be fair enough.  I would just have to accept their decision.  Not much I could do about.  If the referendum goes against my chosen outcome, I will just have to suck it up, and I suppose I will look like a total fanny on here.  But that'd be nothing new. 

kenski1 said:

thats why the scottish first minister is trying to get a refrudum pakage without a vote as he knows he will lose as support for the union is on the rise where as his is either on the fall in some areas or not growing.

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Support for the union in it's current form is not on the rise in Scotland (where the vote will be held).  It is in fact stone dead, except amongst the Loyalist crowd (about 6% of the population) and it will never rise further again.  Devo Max seems to be the preference of the majority, but having gone that far, why not go all the way? 

General support for independence is still far too low for me to be confident of an outright victory, I admit, but we now know that we have two years to lay out all the arguments in favour of independence, and since there is no real argument in favour of the Union we will win. 

No to Scottish independence! It forces us for'ners to deal with stupid bureaucratic bull**** regarding our visas. Please wait until I graduate Mr. SNP man. Kthxbai.

Archonsod said:

You can already see it in fact - the SNP isn't doing anything that Plaid Cymru isn't

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But it is.  It is ruling a country as a majority government.  And if nothing else, it is keeping the Scottish Labour Party out of power (thank Christ).  Wales is currently ruled by the Labour Party, while Plaid have been (sadly) reduced to a rump, with three seats. 

That's why Wales' NHS is even worse than England's now, whereas NHS Scotland is doing (relatively) alright. 

These health services are separate bodies, in more than just name.  The Westminster Tories have enforced their "reforms" in England, so the NHS there is becoming ****e, and will only get worse.  Labour, as always, have accquisced to the Tories' demands in Wales, so their health service will also suffer.  But we, in Scotland, told them to git tae **** with thur pish, and stick their reforms up their arse. 

There is a clear difference here.  A measurable difference.  Just saying "ach, they're all politicians, and parties, all the same," is like saying all cars are the same.  They're not.  Some cars can take you where you want to go.  Others can't. 

Archonsod said:

In the end there's only one difference between the UK and dissolving the union entirely

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No, there's not.  There is a multitudinous world of difference.  It will change everything.  Why do you think they are preparing to fight with all their power against the break-up?  It's not their fear of nothing changing that's motivating them.  They are afraid of what will change - that they will no longer have their place as mandarins in a post-imperial power that keeps trying to "punch above it's weight".  They will be out of their cushy jobs.  And not soon enough, in my view.

Think about it - the SNP members at Westminster are actively campaigning to abolish their own jobs.  Because they believe in what they are doing.  Contrast that with Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore, who until he got the Scottish Office job was campaiging to abolish the Scottish Office - then changed his mind when he saw the address on his pay cheque.  This is the guy who's now trying to tell us we can't run our own referendum.  There is a difference between a **** like that and Alex Salmond.

Archonsod said:

Yeah, because I voted SNP purely because of their views on secession. Rather than them being one of the only Socialist parties left in the British Isles.
Nobody has to stand against the SNP, as the SNP themselves could tell you around 75% of their voters (and about 40% of their actual party) are against dissolving the union. It's why Salmon keeps trying to put off the referendum rather than instigating it as soon as they could, he knows damn well he'll lose.

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You can vote against independence if you choose.  Obviously.  Nowt I can do about it.  It's okay, so long as you keep voting SNP. 

Archonsod said:

The free prescriptions, subsidised transport, lack of tuition fees et al are all subsidised by the English & Welsh taxpayers.

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Goddamn, you know that isn't true.  Well, okay, they are subsidised in part, because everyone's UK-wide taxes goes towards everyone's UK-wide benefits.  So part-subsidised would be more accurate.  Just as a Welshman's false teeth are currently part-subsidised by the taxpayers of Scotland.